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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #93793 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000 |
| Last post | 2026-10-18 10:59 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 308 — 24 participants |
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Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 00:00 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 04:33 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 21:53 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 01:31 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 06:08 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:39 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:49 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:53 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 05:26 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:29 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:31 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:16 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 19:42 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:44 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:55 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:20 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:20 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 11:09 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 12:54 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:15 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:05 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:54 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 16:46 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 16:57 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 19:01 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:48 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Harold Stevens <wookie@bookworm.localdomain> - 2026-10-17 08:26 -0500
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 15:01 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:52 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:30 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:48 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:12 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 13:04 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 14:40 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:17 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:30 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:54 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 19:56 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:00 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 04:32 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:30 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:13 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 14:19 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:38 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:58 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 15:33 +0200
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 20:37 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-19 03:03 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:02 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 20:11 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:53 +0200
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:50 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:04 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 20:19 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 09:39 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:58 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:55 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:43 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:36 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:03 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 12:39 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:19 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:48 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:20 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-17 06:37 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:59 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:20 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:50 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:48 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:25 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 20:15 +0200
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 14:57 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 23:16 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 07:45 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-16 08:41 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 18:27 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 21:55 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 23:43 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:31 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:00 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:56 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:09 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:58 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:08 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 20:11 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-19 02:13 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-19 11:39 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-18 18:52 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-19 03:22 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-19 03:55 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:58 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 20:07 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:41 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:41 -0400
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 11:58 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11b28nt$11pis$8@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94128 |
On 18/10/2026 11:09, Nuno Silva wrote: > But yeah, the distinction between "compiled" and "interpreted" doesn't > imply anything about performance, and it's completely possible for a > language implementation with some sort of compilation to perform > terribly (see e.g. CPython). Apocryphally Gary Kildall was called upon to fix some industrial assembler while on a vacation job. He rewrite in Fortran, It ran ten times faster. faster instructions are no substitute for shitty algorithms -- I would rather have questions that cannot be answered... ...than to have answers that cannot be questioned Richard Feynman
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| From | John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 13:33 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <11b2apq$134sq$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94142 |
On 18/10/2026 12:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 18/10/2026 11:09, Nuno Silva wrote: >> But yeah, the distinction between "compiled" and "interpreted" doesn't >> imply anything about performance, and it's completely possible for a >> language implementation with some sort of compilation to perform >> terribly (see e.g. CPython). > > Apocryphally Gary Kildall was called upon to fix some industrial > assembler while on a vacation job. > > He rewrite in Fortran, It ran ten times faster. > > faster instructions are no substitute for shitty algorithms I once was asked to improve on a search on a website. They had forgotten to add an index to a very important column. From minutes to seconds :-D. -- Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/ Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 13:08 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11b2cs4$11pis$23@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94155 |
On 18/10/2026 12:33, John Bokma wrote:
> On 18/10/2026 12:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 18/10/2026 11:09, Nuno Silva wrote:
>>> But yeah, the distinction between "compiled" and "interpreted" doesn't
>>> imply anything about performance, and it's completely possible for a
>>> language implementation with some sort of compilation to perform
>>> terribly (see e.g. CPython).
>>
>> Apocryphally Gary Kildall was called upon to fix some industrial
>> assembler while on a vacation job.
>>
>> He rewrite in Fortran, It ran ten times faster.
>>
>> faster instructions are no substitute for shitty algorithms
>
> I once was asked to improve on a search on a website. They had forgotten
> to add an index to a very important column. From minutes to seconds :-D.
>
Oh yes.
I played around with mysql a fair bit a decade ago. For write rarely
read often indices are a must
--
"First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your
oppressors."
- George Orwell
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 20:11 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <njkng6Fei39U36@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94155 |
On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 13:33:14 +0200, John Bokma wrote: > On 18/10/2026 12:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> On 18/10/2026 11:09, Nuno Silva wrote: >>> But yeah, the distinction between "compiled" and "interpreted" doesn't >>> imply anything about performance, and it's completely possible for a >>> language implementation with some sort of compilation to perform >>> terribly (see e.g. CPython). >> >> Apocryphally Gary Kildall was called upon to fix some industrial >> assembler while on a vacation job. >> >> He rewrite in Fortran, It ran ten times faster. >> >> faster instructions are no substitute for shitty algorithms > > I once was asked to improve on a search on a website. They had forgotten > to add an index to a very important column. From minutes to seconds :-D. Our database had a couple of tables that were supposed to be used for BOLOs, people or vehicles that were of current interest, that would be periodically purged. Of course, that never happened. A site complained about slow searches and I found the non-indexed tables had over a million records each.
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-19 02:13 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11b3ucf$1lgro$7@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94155 |
On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 13:33:14 +0200, John Bokma wrote: > I once was asked to improve on a search on a website. They had > forgotten to add an index to a very important column. From minutes > to seconds :-D. Good DBMSes even offer commands like EXPLAIN so they will show you where the performance bottlenecks are on your queries ... all you have to do is ask.
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| From | John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-19 11:39 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <11b4ogn$1u9eu$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94268 |
On 19/10/2026 04:13, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: > On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 13:33:14 +0200, John Bokma wrote: > >> I once was asked to improve on a search on a website. They had >> forgotten to add an index to a very important column. From minutes >> to seconds :-D. > > Good DBMSes even offer commands like EXPLAIN so they will show you > where the performance bottlenecks are on your queries ... all you have > to do is ask. I am aware of that, but this issue was clear without EXPLAIN. -- Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/ Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 18:52 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <nz8BS.93146$Q3f.29932@fx05.iad> |
| In reply to | #94142 |
On 2026-10-18, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: > On 18/10/2026 11:09, Nuno Silva wrote: > >> But yeah, the distinction between "compiled" and "interpreted" doesn't >> imply anything about performance, and it's completely possible for a >> language implementation with some sort of compilation to perform >> terribly (see e.g. CPython). > > Apocryphally Gary Kildall was called upon to fix some industrial > assembler while on a vacation job. > > He rewrite in Fortran, It ran ten times faster. > > faster instructions are no substitute for shitty algorithms We had an 8080 cross-assembler that was written in Fortran. A friend wrote one in COBOL that would finish before the Fortran one could get queued for scheduling. -- /~\ Charlie Gibbs | In this world there are \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | two kinds of people: X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | 1. Those who can extrapolate / \ if you read it the right way. | from incomplete data.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-19 03:22 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <njlgmuFei39U49@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94209 |
On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 18:52:03 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > We had an 8080 cross-assembler that was written in Fortran. > A friend wrote one in COBOL that would finish before the Fortran one > could get queued for scheduling. Was the problem Fortran or JCL?
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-19 03:55 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <swgBS.284887$rAy2.147817@fx09.iad> |
| In reply to | #94280 |
On 2026-10-19, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote: > On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 18:52:03 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > >> We had an 8080 cross-assembler that was written in Fortran. >> A friend wrote one in COBOL that would finish before the Fortran one >> could get queued for scheduling. > > Was the problem Fortran or JCL? Fortran. The code was apparently written to be compilable on various architectures (e.g. Univac 1100 and 90/30). I never saw the source code, but for some reason it ran like molasses through a pinhole in January. The slowness was in execution, not scheduling. My friend's version was just way more efficient - and being written in COBOL appealed to our sense of perversity. -- /~\ Charlie Gibbs | In this world there are \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | two kinds of people: X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | 1. Those who can extrapolate / \ if you read it the right way. | from incomplete data.
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 21:58 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <avkfqmxatr.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #94142 |
On 2026-10-18 12:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 18/10/2026 11:09, Nuno Silva wrote: >> But yeah, the distinction between "compiled" and "interpreted" doesn't >> imply anything about performance, and it's completely possible for a >> language implementation with some sort of compilation to perform >> terribly (see e.g. CPython). > > Apocryphally Gary Kildall was called upon to fix some industrial > assembler while on a vacation job. > > He rewrite in Fortran, It ran ten times faster. > > faster instructions are no substitute for shitty algorithms > Long ago (~1985) I rewrote a commercial antivirus (it checked boot sector and command.com, I think) in TurboPascal. It was slower than the original, but my code did a few things more. Then I rewrote the comparison of arrays in assembler, using basically a single instruction (compare string of up to 64 KB). The result was 10 times faster than the original. -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 20:07 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <6ad526ec$0$2500$426a34cc@news.free.fr> |
| In reply to | #94235 |
Le 18-10-2026, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit : > > Long ago (~1985) I rewrote a commercial antivirus (it checked boot > sector and command.com, I think) in TurboPascal. > > It was slower than the original, but my code did a few things more. > > Then I rewrote the comparison of arrays in assembler, using basically a > single instruction (compare string of up to 64 KB). > > The result was 10 times faster than the original. The best anti-virus ever: "format C:". Fast and perfect. Doesn't run on Linux but it's not important as it needs only to run on Windows. -- Si vous avez du temps à perdre : https://scarpet42.gitlab.io
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 21:41 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <42bBS.51202$fY7.6892@fx20.iad> |
| In reply to | #94238 |
On 2026-10-18, Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote: > Le 18-10-2026, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit : > >> Long ago (~1985) I rewrote a commercial antivirus (it checked boot >> sector and command.com, I think) in TurboPascal. >> >> It was slower than the original, but my code did a few things more. >> >> Then I rewrote the comparison of arrays in assembler, using basically a >> single instruction (compare string of up to 64 KB). >> >> The result was 10 times faster than the original. > > The best anti-virus ever: "format C:". Fast and perfect. Doesn't run on > Linux but it's not important as it needs only to run on Windows. Well, there's always mkfs - and not only can it get rid of Windows viruses, it can get rid of Windows itself. -- /~\ Charlie Gibbs | In this world there are \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | two kinds of people: X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | 1. Those who can extrapolate / \ if you read it the right way. | from incomplete data.
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| From | John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-16 13:13 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <20261016131327.00002892@gmail.com> |
| In reply to | #93809 |
On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 07:45:44 -0000 (UTC) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: > > I'd argue knowing the difference between compiled and interpreted is > > basic CS. > > Knowing that the difference is even less significant than you might > think is even more basic CS. > > After all, where does “hardware” end and “software” begin? On which > side of the line do you place things like “firmware” (note the name) > and “microcode”? The “P” in “PLA” stands for “programmable”; does > that mean the gate connections are still “hardware”, or not? That's an inane thing to say when we're talking about software from the CPU's perspective. "Firmware" is software; the fact that it's stored in non-volatile memory doesn't change that. PLAs being programmable in their own right has no bearing on their use in implementing what is, to the CPU, definitely *not* software. The only term that actually blurs the lines here is microcode; this can indeed be seen as another layer for programmatically directing the operations of hardware, even if it's only used to implement the machine's official instruction set. But then not all CPUs are actually microcoded in the first place. And all of this has precious little to do with the difference between compiled and interpreted languages from an application/OS perspective. Whether a CPU is microcoded or not makes no difference to the fact that its native instruction set is the most elemental group of *available* operations for software running on it. Compiled languages by definition translate their own fundamental language operations into sequences of native instructions (ideally with a compiler that optimizes them at compile time.) Interpreted languages, by the classical definition, do not, and the overhead of running the interpreter along with the actual program causes performance penalties which may be anything from moderate to severe. There are also other strategies - compiling to "pseudocode" operations targeting a virtual-machine architecture that's lower-level than the source language (which has a lower overhead than classical interpreters and is useful for portability) or just-in-time compilation (which is more performant than a pure interpreter, but has a higher memory over- head) - and all of these have their own upsides and downsides. Claiming that the distinction is of minimal significance is, frankly, absurd.
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-16 22:27 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11au4sj$3k12p$18@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #93919 |
On 16/10/2026 21:13, John Ames wrote: > On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 07:45:44 -0000 (UTC) > Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: > >>> I'd argue knowing the difference between compiled and interpreted is >>> basic CS. >> >> Knowing that the difference is even less significant than you might >> think is even more basic CS. >> >> After all, where does “hardware” end and “software” begin? On which >> side of the line do you place things like “firmware” (note the name) >> and “microcode”? The “P” in “PLA” stands for “programmable”; does >> that mean the gate connections are still “hardware”, or not? > > That's an inane thing to say when we're talking about software from the > CPU's perspective. "Firmware" is software; the fact that it's stored in > non-volatile memory doesn't change that. PLAs being programmable in > their own right has no bearing on their use in implementing what is, to > the CPU, definitely *not* software. The only term that actually blurs > the lines here is microcode; this can indeed be seen as another layer > for programmatically directing the operations of hardware, even if it's > only used to implement the machine's official instruction set. But then > not all CPUs are actually microcoded in the first place. > Every single *86 processor is. Traditional simpler ARM cores use hardwired control logic, while modern high-performance ARM cores (like Apple Silicon and Cortex-X) use internal micro-operation (µop) translation layers > And all of this has precious little to do with the difference between > compiled and interpreted languages from an application/OS perspective. Well anyone can change the question to make their answer fit > Whether a CPU is microcoded or not makes no difference to the fact that > its native instruction set is the most elemental group of *available* > operations for software running on it. > Not if its microcode is held off chip or can be flashed onto NVram in the chip Intel microcode is reprogrammable. While the base microcode is permanently baked into the processor's Read-Only Memory (ROM) during manufacturing, Intel CPUs feature a mechanism that allows this code to be patched or overwritten dynamically. > Compiled languages by definition translate their own fundamental > language operations into sequences of native instructions (ideally with > a compiler that optimizes them at compile time.) Interpreted languages, > by the classical definition, do not, and the overhead of running the > interpreter along with the actual program causes performance penalties > which may be anything from moderate to severe. > Golly. whoda thunk it? > There are also other strategies - compiling to "pseudocode" operations > targeting a virtual-machine architecture that's lower-level than the > source language (which has a lower overhead than classical interpreters > and is useful for portability) or just-in-time compilation (which is > more performant than a pure interpreter, but has a higher memory over- > head) - and all of these have their own upsides and downsides. Claiming > that the distinction is of minimal significance is, frankly, absurd. > I cant work out who you think this might be news to. -- "Nature does not give up the winter because people dislike the cold." ― Confucius
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| From | John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> |
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| Date | 2026-10-16 14:50 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <20261016145021.00005f03@gmail.com> |
| In reply to | #93928 |
On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 22:27:47 +0100 The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: > I cant work out who you think this might be news to. You probably could if you noted whom that reply was directed at.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
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| Date | 2026-10-17 04:15 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <njgb2lFit4rU36@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #93919 |
On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 13:13:27 -0700, John Ames wrote: > The only term that actually blurs the lines here is microcode; this can > indeed be seen as another layer for programmatically directing the > operations of hardware, even if it's only used to implement the > machine's official instruction set. But then not all CPUs are actually > microcoded in the first place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PALM_processor IBM had a strange idea of what a microprocessor was. The System/23 was the successor to the 5100 series and used an Intel 8085 and other Intel MPUs. I found it odd that the IBM PC was a 5150. It had nothing to do with the 5100 - 5120 machines.
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
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| Date | 2026-10-16 04:41 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <m-Sdnd5rWbe-fkz3nZ2dnZfqn_GdnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #93804 |
On 10/16/26 02:16, Peyton wrote: > c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> writes: > >> On 10/16/26 00:53, Peyton wrote: >>> c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> writes: >>> >>>> On 10/15/26 23:26, Leroy H wrote: >>>>> It is amazing how knowledge of basic CS is absent in most >>>>> programmers, both professional and amateur alike. While >>>>> "vibe coding" is all the rage, a silent disaster is also >>>>> creeping. >>>> >>>> 99+ percent of us got by just fine without >>>> any "computer science" crapola. >>>> >>>> CS is all math/stats. Has almost nothing to >>>> do with the real-world these days. Maybe in >>>> the 1940s ....... >>>> >>>> Might, MAYBE, produce a useful idea, every, >>>> very, once in awhile. >>>> >>> I one time worked with a colleague who did not understand why a C# >>> binary executable was running significantly faster than a Python >>> script. >> >> Worrisome. >> >> However do note that MOST of the Python functions >> are writ in 'C'. >> > >>> Not having basic CS fundamentals does have real implications in >>> everyday software. >> >> Not so much. >> > When you don't know the basics you'll make some bone headed > decisions that'll impact efficiency and/or correctness. You are confusing 'CS' with simple, theory-free, knowledge about programming. You can't really get that from a book.
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
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| Date | 2026-10-16 11:00 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11assj3$33n8m$21@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #93815 |
On 16/10/2026 09:41, c186282 wrote: > You are confusing 'CS' with simple, theory-free, > knowledge about programming. You can't really get > that from a book. You can. Its just not a CS book Years later after having been a programmer and running a tech company I happened to drift into a technical bookshop in search of something specific to do with Sys5 unix as implemented by Sun (solaris?) I skimmed through a book on 'software engineering' Almost everything I had learnt the hard way was in that damned book,. About 15 years too late... -- "Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace, community, compassion, investment, security, housing...." "What kind of person is not interested in those things?" "Jeremy Corbyn?"
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-16 09:57 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11asosu$33n8m$9@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #93804 |
On 16/10/2026 07:16, Peyton wrote: > I agree. That is the very issue. I'd argue knowing the difference between > compiled and interpreted is basic CS. Only if by CS you mean 'common sense' I certainly do not think that is what a CS course is all about. It is probably fundamental to software engineering though. -- Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-16 09:26 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11asn32$33n8m$7@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #93801 |
On 16/10/2026 06:31, c186282 wrote: > Yer guy didn't need a CS degree - just someone > to TELL him the diff between compiled and > interpreted. That's all. Precisely. Just count the cycles Ive told this story before, so apologies, The lads were preparing to lift the engine out of IIRC a fork lift truck using a chain hoist strapped to a wooden beam or rather insubstantial proportions. I stopped them : "We ought to calculate if that beam can take it" "Don't worry, it can" "How do you know" "Because we used it to pull a bigger motor out last week when you weren't looking" In nearly all my time as an engineer, you only uses the theory to design something that's never been designed before. In all other cases it's quicker and more fool proof to simply knock up a prototype and test it. And that can be done by far less expensive people than a theoretician -- WOKE is an acronym... Without Originality, Knowledge or Education.
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