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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #93793 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000 |
| Last post | 2026-10-18 10:59 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 284 — 24 participants |
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Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 00:00 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 04:33 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 21:53 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 01:31 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 06:08 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:39 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:49 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:53 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 05:26 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:29 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:31 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:16 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 19:42 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:44 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:55 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:20 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:20 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 11:09 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 12:54 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:15 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:05 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:54 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 16:46 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 16:57 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 19:01 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:48 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Harold Stevens <wookie@bookworm.localdomain> - 2026-10-17 08:26 -0500
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 15:01 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:52 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:30 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:17 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:30 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:54 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 19:56 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 04:32 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:30 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:13 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 14:19 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:38 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 15:10 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:58 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 16:04 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 15:33 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 14:23 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 20:37 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-19 03:03 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 20:11 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:53 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 13:00 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 13:26 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:50 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 20:19 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:43 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:19 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:48 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:20 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-17 06:37 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:59 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:20 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:50 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:48 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:25 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 20:15 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:36 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 14:57 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 23:16 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 07:45 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-16 08:41 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 18:27 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 23:43 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:31 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:00 -0400
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-19 03:22 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:58 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 20:07 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:41 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:27 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:00 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:57 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 10:56 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:26 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:32 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 09:24 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:27 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:20 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-17 02:29 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:58 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:25 +0100
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Page 11 of 15 — ← Prev page 1 … 9 10 [11] 12 13 … 15 Next page →
| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 20:42 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11b0mis$iems$7@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94035 |
On 17 Oct 2026 16:46:21 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> In this case python is a strongly typed language and in other cases
> it's not that important.
It’s *always* important. Consider why languages like PHP (ptui) and
JavaScript need that extra “===” comparison operator: it’s to disable
automatic type conversions (e.g. number ↔ string) that Python refuses
to do anyway.
> With some typed languages, you can't use a variable if you didn't
> declare it's type before. With python, you don't need to declare
> integers and strings but you need to declare dictionaries. Why? Don't
> know.
Who says you need to “declare dictionaries”?
ldo@hypatia:~> python3
Python 3.14.7 (main, Sep 13 2026, 08:30:29) [GCC 16.2.0] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> a = "some text"
>>> print(a)
some text
>>> a = {"colour" : "green"}
>>> print(a)
{'colour': 'green'}
>>>
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 01:54 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <njin6fFei39U19@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94086 |
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 20:42:04 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> Who says you need to “declare dictionaries”?
>
> ldo@hypatia:~> python3 Python 3.14.7 (main, Sep 13 2026, 08:30:29)
> [GCC 16.2.0] on linux Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or
> "license"
> for more information.
> >>> a = "some text" print(a)
> some text
> >>> a = {"colour" : "green"}
> >>> print(a)
> {'colour': 'green'}
Python 3.14.4 (main, Aug 20 2026, 10:41:58) [GCC 15.2.0] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> a = {"coluor" : "green"}
>>> print(a)
{'coluor': 'green'}
>>> a["color"] = "purple"
>>> print(a)
{'coluor': 'green', 'color': 'purple'}
I've seen bugs introduced either by typos or a programmer who couldn't
spell. It's either a very handy feature or a potential problem to add ad
hoc fields.
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| From | John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 12:11 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <11b25vq$11csg$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94098 |
On 18/10/2026 03:54, rbowman wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 20:42:04 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Who says you need to “declare dictionaries”?
>>
>> ldo@hypatia:~> python3 Python 3.14.7 (main, Sep 13 2026, 08:30:29)
>> [GCC 16.2.0] on linux Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or
>> "license"
>> for more information.
>> >>> a = "some text" print(a)
>> some text
>> >>> a = {"colour" : "green"}
>> >>> print(a)
>> {'colour': 'green'}
>
> Python 3.14.4 (main, Aug 20 2026, 10:41:58) [GCC 15.2.0] on linux
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> a = {"coluor" : "green"}
>>>> print(a)
> {'coluor': 'green'}
>>>> a["color"] = "purple"
>>>> print(a)
> {'coluor': 'green', 'color': 'purple'}
>
>
> I've seen bugs introduced either by typos or a programmer who couldn't
> spell. It's either a very handy feature or a potential problem to add ad
> hoc fields.
If that's the case use a dataclass with frozen=True (and perhaps
kw_only=True).
--
Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/
Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/
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| From | John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 12:38 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <11b27jb$121rl$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94129 |
On 18/10/2026 12:11, John Bokma wrote:
> On 18/10/2026 03:54, rbowman wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 20:42:04 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> Who says you need to “declare dictionaries”?
>>>
>>> ldo@hypatia:~> python3 Python 3.14.7 (main, Sep 13 2026, 08:30:29)
>>> [GCC 16.2.0] on linux Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or
>>> "license"
>>> for more information.
>>> >>> a = "some text" print(a)
>>> some text
>>> >>> a = {"colour" : "green"}
>>> >>> print(a)
>>> {'colour': 'green'}
>>
>> Python 3.14.4 (main, Aug 20 2026, 10:41:58) [GCC 15.2.0] on linux
>> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>>> a = {"coluor" : "green"}
>>>>> print(a)
>> {'coluor': 'green'}
>>>>> a["color"] = "purple"
>>>>> print(a)
>> {'coluor': 'green', 'color': 'purple'}
>>
>>
>> I've seen bugs introduced either by typos or a programmer who couldn't
>> spell. It's either a very handy feature or a potential problem to add ad
>> hoc fields.
>
> If that's the case use a dataclass with frozen=True (and perhaps
> kw_only=True).
❯ python3
Python 3.14.7 (main, Aug 8 2026, 20:03:42) [Clang 13.1.6
(clang-1316.0.21.2.5)] on darwin
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> from dataclasses import dataclass
>>> @dataclass(frozen=True, kw_only=True)
... class Config:
... color: str
...
>>> a = Config(color='purple')
>>> a.coluor
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<python-input-3>", line 1, in <module>
a.coluor
AttributeError: 'Config' object has no attribute 'coluor'. Did you mean:
'color'?
>>> a.color = 'green'
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<python-input-4>", line 1, in <module>
a.color = 'green'
^^^^^^^
File "<string>", line 15, in __setattr__
dataclasses.FrozenInstanceError: cannot assign to field 'color'
>>> a.color
'purple'
>>>
--
Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/
Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 20:01 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <njkmthFei39U34@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94129 |
On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 12:11:06 +0200, John Bokma wrote:
> On 18/10/2026 03:54, rbowman wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 20:42:04 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> Who says you need to “declare dictionaries”?
>>>
>>> ldo@hypatia:~> python3 Python 3.14.7 (main, Sep 13 2026,
>>> 08:30:29)
>>> [GCC 16.2.0] on linux Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or
>>> "license"
>>> for more information.
>>> >>> a = "some text" print(a)
>>> some text
>>> >>> a = {"colour" : "green"}
>>> >>> print(a)
>>> {'colour': 'green'}
>>
>> Python 3.14.4 (main, Aug 20 2026, 10:41:58) [GCC 15.2.0] on linux Type
>> "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>>> a = {"coluor" : "green"}
>>>>> print(a)
>> {'coluor': 'green'}
>>>>> a["color"] = "purple" print(a)
>> {'coluor': 'green', 'color': 'purple'}
>>
>>
>> I've seen bugs introduced either by typos or a programmer who couldn't
>> spell. It's either a very handy feature or a potential problem to add
>> ad hoc fields.
>
> If that's the case use a dataclass with frozen=True (and perhaps
> kw_only=True).
Yes, the language has been improving but iirc dataclass appeared in 3.7.
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| From | John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 22:25 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <11b39v6$1fl78$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94236 |
On 18/10/2026 22:01, rbowman wrote: > On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 12:11:06 +0200, John Bokma wrote: [snip] >> If that's the case use a dataclass with frozen=True (and perhaps >> kw_only=True). > > Yes, the language has been improving but iirc dataclass appeared in 3.7. named tuples are another, older way. But 3.7, that's 2018! -- Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/ Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-19 03:19 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <njlghnFei39U48@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94242 |
On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 22:25:06 +0200, John Bokma wrote: > On 18/10/2026 22:01, rbowman wrote: >> On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 12:11:06 +0200, John Bokma wrote: > > [snip] > >>> If that's the case use a dataclass with frozen=True (and perhaps >>> kw_only=True). >> >> Yes, the language has been improving but iirc dataclass appeared in >> 3.7. > > named tuples are another, older way. > > But 3.7, that's 2018! That brings up an interesting question. How many people who have been using Python for a decade or two keep up with the latest changes? What they have been doing still works and they don't go out of their way to read PEP 666 or whatever. I'm certainly guilty. I pick and choose what I find useful f strings are the greatest things since sliced bread. I suppose I might have to deal with asyncio someday but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. I learned to hate await in C#. It's not only Python. Whatever C spec that allowed inline variable declarations was great. I'd gotten used to it in C++. I'm sure there were other changes that I don't use. Some I actively dislike. afaik C still doesn't have lambdas. As far as Fortran, I'm stuck at f77. It still works.
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| From | Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 21:48 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <11b47e9$1nugu$3@kst.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #94279 |
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
[...]
> It's not only Python. Whatever C spec that allowed inline variable
> declarations was great. I'd gotten used to it in C++. I'm sure there were
> other changes that I don't use. Some I actively dislike. afaik C still
> doesn't have lambdas.
[...]
I *think* you're referring to the ability to mix declarations and
statements within a block. This was added in the 1999 edition of
the C standard. C++ had this ability nearly from the beginning (I
don't know the exact history).
C++ has another feature of inline variables, using the "inline"
keyword, added in C++17.
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <7cPAS.187032$iS_f.6758@fx06.iad> |
| In reply to | #93989 |
On 2026-10-17, Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote: > So, yes to do something simple, python is fast and easy. But if you want > to power of C++ and Java, you can't use python on a simple way. 'Twas ever thus. A little point-and-shoot camera makes it easy to grab quick snapshots under good conditions; an SLR with lots of adjustments is more difficult to use, but can give excellent results under conditions under which the point-and-shoot fails utterly. One size does not fit all. -- /~\ Charlie Gibbs | In this world there are \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | two kinds of people: X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | 1. Those who can extrapolate / \ if you read it the right way. | from incomplete data.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 19:42 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <nji1crFei39U10@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #93989 |
On 17 Oct 2026 09:43:01 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: > Le 16-10-2026, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> a écrit : >> Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote this screed in ALL-CAPS (fixed): >> >>> On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 17:10:18 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote: >>> >>>> Well C++ is a crime against humanity 'operator overloading...' crap >>>> bloated crap. >>> >>> Operator overloading is a very handy feature. Yes, C++ is overly >>> complicated. Java left out that feature of C++, and it, too, still >>> manages to be excessively complicated. >> >> C++ overly complicated? Nah. > > It's so awful it made its creator declare: "There are only two kinds of > languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses." I had the first edition of Stroustrup's book. It was much closer to C With Classes than what it's grown into. The language wasn't quite ready for prime time, hence the STL that grew into the Standard Library and all the Microsoft additions as they tried to make it useful for their purposes.
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 20:36 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11b0m8k$iems$5@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #93989 |
On 17 Oct 2026 09:43:01 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: > From what I saw, for a beginner's approach, python is easier than Java > or C++. Now when one starts to use python in the real life, the > complexity of python appears. Because that's the python way: things > works except when they stop to work. I haven’t encountered that. I have written some reasonably substantial Python code -- would this one <https://gitlab.com/ldo/qahirah> count? That’s over 8500 lines. And this <https://gitlab.com/ldo/dbussy> consists of 2 modules totalling over 10,000 lines. > Like, it's not a typed language but start playing with dictionaries > without declaring your variables first to see how the claims stand > before the facts. It is true you can make typos with misspelling variable names, because assignment to a name the compiler hasn’t seen before causes the implicit creation of a new variable. One thing that helps limit the damage from this is the scoping rules. For example, you can reference a global variable from an inner scope without having to declare it global; but you can’t assign to it from that scope unless you explicitly declare it “global”. > And I'm not speaking about the dependencies. Each version breaks > everything ... Backward compatibility tends to be pretty good. Yes, some ancient library modules do get deprecated -- still want to use the CGI toolbox, or access Sun audio files?? > ... so well that now some distros don't let you install > libraries with pip if you are not in a virtual environment. Do other languages get away with allowing you to override standard system libraries without breaking things? Maybe the issue is, Python has achieved a degree of popularity way beyond anything those earlier languages could have managed, to the point where critical system components have now become dependent on it. > So, yes to do something simple, python is fast and easy. But if you > want to power of C++ and Java, you can't use python on a simple way. Python can do things as complex as anything you might want to do in C++ or Java, with much less code. For a real-world example, look at how you would set up a TLS/SSL encrypted connection in Java, versus doing it in Python.
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| From | Blaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 15:47 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <11b0qe7$kgm7$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94082 |
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: > On 17 Oct 2026 09:43:01 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: > >> From what I saw, for a beginner's approach, python is easier than Java >> or C++. Now when one starts to use python in the real life, the >> complexity of python appears. Because that's the python way: things >> works except when they stop to work. > > I haven’t encountered that. I have written some reasonably substantial > Python code -- would this one <https://gitlab.com/ldo/qahirah> count? > That’s over 8500 lines. And this <https://gitlab.com/ldo/dbussy> > consists of 2 modules totalling over 10,000 lines. No wonder. The problem with counting by lines is you may come up with 10,000, but if you took out whitespace it could be short as 102 lines. >> Like, it's not a typed language but start playing with dictionaries >> without declaring your variables first to see how the claims stand >> before the facts. > > It is true you can make typos with misspelling variable names, because > assignment to a name the compiler hasn’t seen before causes the implicit > creation of a new variable. To begin I know you should only import maybe at most 2 packages besides sys and/or random. > One thing that helps limit the damage from this is the scoping rules. > For example, you can reference a global variable from an inner scope > without having to declare it global; but you can’t assign to it from > that scope unless you explicitly declare it “global”. > >> And I'm not speaking about the dependencies. Each version breaks >> everything ... > > Backward compatibility tends to be pretty good. Yes, some ancient > library modules do get deprecated -- still want to use the CGI > toolbox, or access Sun audio files?? I'm usually attempting to advance to a later version of Python in my expeience. Backward compatibility is great, but it's important to look at what new versions bring. >> ... so well that now some distros don't let you install >> libraries with pip if you are not in a virtual environment. > > Do other languages get away with allowing you to override standard > system libraries without breaking things? It's a standard. > Maybe the issue is, Python has achieved a degree of popularity way > beyond anything those earlier languages could have managed, to the > point where critical system components have now become dependent on > it. > >> So, yes to do something simple, python is fast and easy. But if you >> want to power of C++ and Java, you can't use python on a simple way. Which of the powers are you referring to? > Python can do things as complex as anything you might want to do in > C++ or Java, with much less code. For a real-world example, look at > how you would set up a TLS/SSL encrypted connection in Java, versus > doing it in Python. I've found the integer system powerful. -- Can you strip away so we may start again? "There’s a switch and they don't seem authentic or themselves. It feels like I’m an unnecessary body and it’s a waste of time to even be there." -- Grim, playful Blaine.
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 23:11 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11b0vau$lsp3$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94090 |
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 15:47:43 -0600, Blaine wrote:
> Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>> On 17 Oct 2026 09:43:01 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>
>>> From what I saw, for a beginner's approach, python is easier than Java
>>> or C++. Now when one starts to use python in the real life, the
>>> complexity of python appears. Because that's the python way: things
>>> works except when they stop to work.
>>
>> I haven’t encountered that. I have written some reasonably substantial
>> Python code -- would this one <https://gitlab.com/ldo/qahirah> count?
>> That’s over 8500 lines. And this <https://gitlab.com/ldo/dbussy>
>> consists of 2 modules totalling over 10,000 lines.
>
> No wonder. The problem with counting by lines is you may come up with
> 10,000, but if you took out whitespace it could be short as 102 lines.
ldo@hypatia:dbussy> grep -cE '^$' dbussy.py ravel.py
dbussy.py:720
ravel.py:240
ldo@hypatia:dbussy> grep -cvE '^$' dbussy.py ravel.py
dbussy.py:6279
ravel.py:3483
Still close to 10,000 lines. So ... nope.
> To begin I know you should only import maybe at most 2 packages besides
> sys and/or random.
Where do you get that idea from?
From the abovementioned dbussy.py:
import os
import builtins
import operator
import array
import enum
import ctypes as ct
from weakref import \
ref as weak_ref, \
WeakValueDictionary
import threading
import io
import atexit
import asyncio
import functools
from xml.etree import \
ElementTree as XMLElementTree
from xml.sax.saxutils import \
quoteattr as quote_xml_attr
>> Do other languages get away with allowing you to override standard
>> system libraries without breaking things?
>
> It's a standard.
Doesn’t seem like a coherent answer ...
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| From | Blaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 18:07 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <11b12jc$n0a6$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94094 |
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: > On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 15:47:43 -0600, Blaine wrote: > >> Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: >>> >>> On 17 Oct 2026 09:43:01 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: >>> >>>> From what I saw, for a beginner's approach, python is easier than Java >>>> or C++. Now when one starts to use python in the real life, the >>>> complexity of python appears. Because that's the python way: things >>>> works except when they stop to work. >>> >>> I haven’t encountered that. I have written some reasonably substantial >>> Python code -- would this one <https://gitlab.com/ldo/qahirah> count? >>> That’s over 8500 lines. And this <https://gitlab.com/ldo/dbussy> >>> consists of 2 modules totalling over 10,000 lines. >> >> No wonder. The problem with counting by lines is you may come up with >> 10,000, but if you took out whitespace it could be short as 102 lines. > > ldo@hypatia:dbussy> grep -cE '^$' dbussy.py ravel.py > dbussy.py:720 > ravel.py:240 > ldo@hypatia:dbussy> grep -cvE '^$' dbussy.py ravel.py > dbussy.py:6279 > ravel.py:3483 > > Still close to 10,000 lines. So ... nope. > >> To begin I know you should only import maybe at most 2 packages besides >> sys and/or random. > > Where do you get that idea from? > > From the abovementioned dbussy.py: > > import os > import builtins > import operator Because I tricked you into thinking, "To begin" means "well here we go again." I intentionally made it obscure that I am instructing the beginner on this point. I am suggesting that someone "new" to Python shouldn't import very many packages, as they can overlap problematically. -- Can you strip away so we may start again? "There’s a switch and they don't seem authentic or themselves. It feels like I’m an unnecessary body and it’s a waste of time to even be there." -- Grim, playful Blaine.
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 03:05 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11b1d21$pt5v$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94096 |
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 18:07:08 -0600, Blaine wrote: > I am suggesting that someone "new" to Python shouldn't import very > many packages, as they can overlap problematically. How “overlap”?
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| From | Blaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 11:31 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <11b2vol$1bfc3$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94103 |
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: > On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 18:07:08 -0600, Blaine wrote: > >> I am suggesting that someone "new" to Python shouldn't import very >> many packages, as they can overlap problematically. > > How “overlap”? > This paper examines two manifestations of the problem. First, it analyzes dependency conflicts surrounding the Jupyter ecosystem, with emphasis on jupyter-client, ipykernel, notebook, and related packages. Second, it examines a more subtle form of conflict in which a function is silently substituted or renamed, causing a fundamentally different probabilistic behavior. As a case study, we consider situations where code expecting a uniform random generator instead receives a Gaussian random generator. The central thesis is that package conflicts and semantic substitutions are not separate issues. Both arise when software components rely upon assumptions that are no longer true. ________________________________________ 1. Introduction Many software failures originate not in algorithms but in assumptions. An algorithm may be mathematically correct. A class hierarchy may be perfectly designed. Unit tests may pass. Yet the system fails because one component assumes: Python f() returns a uniform random sample while another component provides: Python f() returns a Gaussian random sample Likewise: Python Package A assumes jupyter-client 7.x while: Python Package B assumes jupyter-client 8.x In both cases, the failure results from incompatible expectations. The experienced developer often focuses on explicit code. Dependency conflicts remind us that software behavior is also determined by implicit contracts. ________________________________________ 2. The Role of jupyter-client The Jupyter ecosystem consists of multiple cooperating packages. Among them: jupyter-client notebook jupyter-server ipykernel nbclient jupyter-console Many developers think of Jupyter as a notebook interface. In reality, it is a distributed messaging architecture. A typical execution path looks like: Plain Text Notebook UI | jupyter-server | jupyter-client | ipykernel | Python interpreter The package jupyter-client acts as a communications layer between front-end applications and kernels. This position makes it especially sensitive to compatibility problems. ________________________________________ 3. Why jupyter-client Conflicts Occur The primary reason is version coordination. Suppose: Plain Text Notebook requires: jupyter-client >= 7 Kernel package requires: jupyter-client < 7 The package manager cannot satisfy both constraints. The experienced developer often views this as a deployment issue. However, the deeper reality is that each package encodes a model of expected behavior. One package believes the communication protocol behaves one way. Another package expects a different behavior. The conflict merely exposes the disagreement. ________________________________________ 4. Layered Dependency Assumptions Consider the dependency graph: Plain Text Application | Notebook | ipykernel | jupyter-client | pyzmq Every layer depends upon assumptions from lower layers. When a developer upgrades: Shell pip install --upgrade notebook they may unknowingly alter assumptions several layers below. The resulting failure often appears unrelated to the action that caused it. This makes troubleshooting difficult. ________________________________________ 5. False Attribution of Failure One of the most interesting cognitive errors among experienced developers is false attribution. Suppose notebook execution suddenly fails. The developer investigates: the notebook code the data the operating system Yet the true cause is: Plain Text jupyter-client version mismatch A package conflict resembles a hidden variable in an experiment. Without awareness of dependency interactions, the developer can spend hours debugging code that is functioning correctly. ________________________________________ 6. Dependency Hell as Assumption Hell The phrase "dependency hell" is common. A more accurate description may be: assumption hell. A successful installation requires agreement among many independent authors. Each author makes assumptions about: APIs object behavior exception formats message protocols return values Dependency conflicts occur when those assumptions diverge. The package manager is merely the messenger. ________________________________________ 7. Lessons From jupyter-client For experienced developers, the central lesson is not package pinning. The lesson is architectural. A package version should be treated like: a protocol version, a database schema, a network contract. Changing versions changes assumptions. The number itself is not important. The assumptions behind the number are. ________________________________________ 8. Semantic Substitution and Function Renames We now turn to a different class of problem. Suppose a developer expects: Python random.random() This generates values from a uniform distribution. Specifically: Plain Text 0 <= x < 1 with equal probability across the interval. Now imagine a package update or local wrapper introduces: Python gaussian_random() and maps it to the same interface. The function still returns a number. No exception occurs. No warning appears. Yet the semantics have changed completely. ________________________________________ 9. Uniform Versus Gaussian Distributions A uniform distribution: Plain Text U(0,1) assigns equal probability throughout the interval. A Gaussian distribution: Plain Text N(0,1) clusters near the mean. Graphically: Plain Text Uniform: ********** ********** ********** Gaussian: ** **** ****** ******** ****** **** ** To many testing frameworks, both outputs appear valid. Both produce floating-point numbers. The mistake may survive for months. ________________________________________ 10. Unexpected Consequences Consider a simulation. The programmer intends: Python angle = random.random() * 360 The angles should be evenly distributed. Substitution with Gaussian behavior produces clustering. The simulation develops bias. Examples include: Monte Carlo analysis particle systems game mechanics optimization algorithms machine learning experiments The code may remain syntactically correct while becoming scientifically invalid. -- Can you strip away so we may start again? "There’s a switch and they don't seem authentic or themselves. It feels like I’m an unnecessary body and it’s a waste of time to even be there." -- Grim, playful Blaine.
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 21:40 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11b3ecd$1h3cv$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94203 |
On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 11:31:00 -0600, Blaine wrote: > Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: >> >> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 18:07:08 -0600, Blaine wrote: >> >>> I am suggesting that someone "new" to Python shouldn't import very >>> many packages, as they can overlap problematically. >> >> How “overlap”? >> > This paper examines two manifestations of the problem. First, it > analyzes dependency conflicts surrounding the Jupyter ecosystem, > with emphasis on jupyter-client, ipykernel, notebook, and related > packages. Second, it examines a more subtle form of conflict in > which a function is silently substituted or renamed, causing a > fundamentally different probabilistic behavior. > > [long screed deleted] Copied-and-pasted AI slop, is it? I notice the lack of attribution, and the fact that it doesn’t make any sense otherwise.
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| From | Blaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 16:09 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <11b3g25$1hpjj$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94249 |
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: > On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 11:31:00 -0600, Blaine wrote: > >> Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: >>> >>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 18:07:08 -0600, Blaine wrote: >>> >>>> I am suggesting that someone "new" to Python shouldn't import very >>>> many packages, as they can overlap problematically. >>> >>> How “overlap”? >>> >> This paper examines two manifestations of the problem. First, it >> analyzes dependency conflicts surrounding the Jupyter ecosystem, >> with emphasis on jupyter-client, ipykernel, notebook, and related >> packages. Second, it examines a more subtle form of conflict in >> which a function is silently substituted or renamed, causing a >> fundamentally different probabilistic behavior. >> >> [long screed deleted] > > Copied-and-pasted AI slop, is it? I notice the lack of attribution, > and the fact that it doesn’t make any sense otherwise. > Is that your final answer? I'll have my attorney review it and see if his observations are the same. Please don't tell me you didn't read it. -- Can you strip away so we may start again? "There’s a switch and they don't seem authentic or themselves. It feels like I’m an unnecessary body and it’s a waste of time to even be there." -- Grim, playful Blaine.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-19 02:58 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <njlf9vFei39U46@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94257 |
On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 16:09:07 -0600, Blaine wrote: > I'll have my attorney review it and see if his observations are the > same. Is your attorney's name Claude?
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| From | Blaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 21:43 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <11b43km$1nfci$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94276 |
rbowman wrote: > On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 16:09:07 -0600, Blaine wrote: > >> I'll have my attorney review it and see if his observations are the >> same. > > Is your attorney's name Claude? > No, my attorney's name is Blaine. You know, pro se? -- Can you strip away so we may start again? "There’s a switch and they don't seem authentic or themselves. It feels like I’m an unnecessary body and it’s a waste of time to even be there." -- Grim, playful Blaine.
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