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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #93793 > unrolled thread

Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI

Started byLeroy H <lh@somewhere.net>
First post2026-10-16 03:26 +0000
Last post2026-10-18 10:59 +0000
Articles 20 on this page of 296 — 24 participants

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Contents

  Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000
    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 00:00 -0400
      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 04:33 +0000
      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 21:53 -0700
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 01:31 -0400
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 06:08 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:39 -0400
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:49 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:53 +0000
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 05:26 -0400
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:29 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:31 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:16 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 19:42 -0400
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:44 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:55 +0100
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:20 +0000
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:20 +0100
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 11:09 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 12:54 +0100
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:15 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:05 +0100
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:54 +0000
                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 16:46 +0100
                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 16:57 +0000
                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 19:01 +0000
                                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0100
                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:48 -0700
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Harold Stevens <wookie@bookworm.localdomain> - 2026-10-17 08:26 -0500
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 15:01 +0100
                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:52 +0000
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:30 +0100
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:48 +0000
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:17 +0200
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:30 +0000
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:54 +0100
                                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 19:56 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 04:32 -0400
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:30 +0200
                                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:13 +0100
                                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 14:19 +0200
                                                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:38 +0100
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 15:10 +0200
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:58 +0100
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 16:04 +0200
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 15:33 +0200
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 14:23 +0000
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 20:37 +0100
                                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-19 03:03 +0000
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:40 +0000
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 20:11 +0100
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:53 +0200
                                                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 13:00 +0000
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 15:12 +0200
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 13:26 +0000
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 15:35 +0200
                                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 14:04 +0000
                                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 16:24 +0200
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:50 +0100
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:37 +0000
                                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 20:19 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 09:39 +0000
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:58 -0400
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:55 +0100
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:43 +0100
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:36 +0000
                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:19 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:48 +0000
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:20 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-17 06:37 -0400
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:59 +0100
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:20 +0200
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:50 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:48 +0100
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:25 +0200
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 20:15 +0200
                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:36 +0100
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 14:57 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 23:16 -0700
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 07:45 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-16 08:41 -0700
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 18:27 +0100
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 21:55 +0000
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 23:43 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:31 +0200
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:00 -0400
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:56 +0000
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:09 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:58 +0100
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 13:33 +0200
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:08 +0100
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 20:11 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-19 02:13 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-19 11:39 +0200
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-18 18:52 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-19 03:22 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-19 03:55 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:58 +0200
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 20:07 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:41 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 13:13 -0700
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:27 +0100
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:50 -0700
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 04:15 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:41 -0400
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:00 +0100
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:57 +0100
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:26 +0100
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:42 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 10:56 +0100
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 11:14 +0000
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 13:07 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:20 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:26 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:32 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:21 +0100
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 04:04 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 09:24 +0100
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:27 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:20 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 01:13 +0100
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-17 02:32 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 03:04 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:41 +0100
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 12:45 +0200
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:24 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:16 +0100
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:53 +0200
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 06:02 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 23:26 -0700
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 06:42 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 07:41 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 06:39 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:22 -0400
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 10:54 +0100
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:19 +0100
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:40 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 09:52 +0100
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-17 20:47 +0000
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        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 10:07 +0100
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            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:26 +0100
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                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 12:40 +0100
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                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 13:39 +0100
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      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:16 +0100
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:51 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:04 +0100
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              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 13:03 +0100
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:26 +0000
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                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-17 01:55 +0000
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                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 09:28 +0100
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    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 11:44 -0400
      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 16:14 +0000
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            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-16 18:10 +0000
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        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:25 +0100
      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "De ongekruisigde ds." <ongekruisigde-ds@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 10:59 +0000

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#94103

FromLawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2026-10-18 03:05 +0000
Message-ID<11b1d21$pt5v$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94096
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 18:07:08 -0600, Blaine wrote:

> I am suggesting that someone "new" to Python shouldn't import very
> many packages, as they can overlap problematically.

How “overlap”?

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#94203

FromBlaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com>
Date2026-10-18 11:31 -0600
Message-ID<11b2vol$1bfc3$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94103
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 18:07:08 -0600, Blaine wrote:
> 
>> I am suggesting that someone "new" to Python shouldn't import very
>> many packages, as they can overlap problematically.
> 
> How “overlap”?
> 
This paper examines two manifestations of the problem. First, it 
analyzes dependency conflicts surrounding the Jupyter ecosystem, with 
emphasis on jupyter-client, ipykernel, notebook, and related packages. 
Second, it examines a more subtle form of conflict in which a function 
is silently substituted or renamed, causing a fundamentally different 
probabilistic behavior. As a case study, we consider situations where 
code expecting a uniform random generator instead receives a Gaussian 
random generator.
The central thesis is that package conflicts and semantic substitutions 
are not separate issues. Both arise when software components rely upon 
assumptions that are no longer true.
________________________________________
1. Introduction
Many software failures originate not in algorithms but in assumptions.
An algorithm may be mathematically correct. A class hierarchy may be 
perfectly designed. Unit tests may pass. Yet the system fails because 
one component assumes:
Python
f() returns a uniform random sample

while another component provides:
Python
f() returns a Gaussian random sample
Likewise:
Python
Package A assumes jupyter-client 7.x
while:
Python
Package B assumes jupyter-client 8.x
In both cases, the failure results from incompatible expectations.
The experienced developer often focuses on explicit code. Dependency 
conflicts remind us that software behavior is also determined by 
implicit contracts.
________________________________________
2. The Role of jupyter-client
The Jupyter ecosystem consists of multiple cooperating packages.
Among them:
jupyter-client
notebook
jupyter-server
ipykernel
nbclient
jupyter-console
Many developers think of Jupyter as a notebook interface.
In reality, it is a distributed messaging architecture.
A typical execution path looks like:
Plain Text
Notebook UI
|
jupyter-server
|
jupyter-client
|
ipykernel
|
Python interpreter
The package jupyter-client acts as a communications layer between 
front-end applications and kernels.
This position makes it especially sensitive to compatibility problems.
________________________________________
3. Why jupyter-client Conflicts Occur
The primary reason is version coordination.
Suppose:
Plain Text
Notebook requires:
jupyter-client >= 7

Kernel package requires:
jupyter-client < 7
The package manager cannot satisfy both constraints.
The experienced developer often views this as a deployment issue.
However, the deeper reality is that each package encodes a model of 
expected behavior.
One package believes the communication protocol behaves one way.
Another package expects a different behavior.
The conflict merely exposes the disagreement.
________________________________________
4. Layered Dependency Assumptions
Consider the dependency graph:
Plain Text
Application
|
Notebook
|
ipykernel
|
jupyter-client
|
pyzmq
Every layer depends upon assumptions from lower layers.
When a developer upgrades:
Shell
pip install --upgrade notebook
they may unknowingly alter assumptions several layers below.
The resulting failure often appears unrelated to the action that caused it.
This makes troubleshooting difficult.
________________________________________
5. False Attribution of Failure
One of the most interesting cognitive errors among experienced 
developers is false attribution.
Suppose notebook execution suddenly fails.
The developer investigates:
the notebook code
the data
the operating system
Yet the true cause is:
Plain Text
jupyter-client version mismatch
A package conflict resembles a hidden variable in an experiment.
Without awareness of dependency interactions, the developer can spend 
hours debugging code that is functioning correctly.
________________________________________
6. Dependency Hell as Assumption Hell
The phrase "dependency hell" is common.
A more accurate description may be:
assumption hell.
A successful installation requires agreement among many independent authors.
Each author makes assumptions about:
APIs
object behavior
exception formats
message protocols
return values
Dependency conflicts occur when those assumptions diverge.
The package manager is merely the messenger.
________________________________________
7. Lessons From jupyter-client
For experienced developers, the central lesson is not package pinning.
The lesson is architectural.
A package version should be treated like:
a protocol version,
a database schema,
a network contract.
Changing versions changes assumptions.
The number itself is not important.
The assumptions behind the number are.
________________________________________
8. Semantic Substitution and Function Renames
We now turn to a different class of problem.
Suppose a developer expects:
Python
random.random()
This generates values from a uniform distribution.
Specifically:
Plain Text
0 <= x < 1
with equal probability across the interval.
Now imagine a package update or local wrapper introduces:
Python
gaussian_random()
and maps it to the same interface.
The function still returns a number.
No exception occurs.
No warning appears.
Yet the semantics have changed completely.
________________________________________
9. Uniform Versus Gaussian Distributions
A uniform distribution:
Plain Text
U(0,1)
assigns equal probability throughout the interval.
A Gaussian distribution:
Plain Text
N(0,1)
clusters near the mean.
Graphically:
Plain Text
Uniform:

**********
**********
**********

Gaussian:

**
****
******
********
******
****
**
To many testing frameworks, both outputs appear valid.
Both produce floating-point numbers.
The mistake may survive for months.
________________________________________
10. Unexpected Consequences
Consider a simulation.
The programmer intends:
Python
angle = random.random() * 360
The angles should be evenly distributed.
Substitution with Gaussian behavior produces clustering.
The simulation develops bias.
Examples include:
Monte Carlo analysis
particle systems
game mechanics
optimization algorithms
machine learning experiments
The code may remain syntactically correct while becoming scientifically 
invalid.

-- 
Can you strip away so we may start again?
"There’s a switch and they don't
seem authentic or themselves. It
feels like I’m an unnecessary
body and it’s a waste of time to
even be there." -- Grim, playful Blaine.

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#94249

FromLawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2026-10-18 21:40 +0000
Message-ID<11b3ecd$1h3cv$3@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94203
On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 11:31:00 -0600, Blaine wrote:

> Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 18:07:08 -0600, Blaine wrote:
>>
>>> I am suggesting that someone "new" to Python shouldn't import very
>>> many packages, as they can overlap problematically.
>>
>> How “overlap”?
>>
> This paper examines two manifestations of the problem. First, it
> analyzes dependency conflicts surrounding the Jupyter ecosystem,
> with emphasis on jupyter-client, ipykernel, notebook, and related
> packages. Second, it examines a more subtle form of conflict in
> which a function is silently substituted or renamed, causing a
> fundamentally different probabilistic behavior.
>
> [long screed deleted]

Copied-and-pasted AI slop, is it? I notice the lack of attribution,
and the fact that it doesn’t make any sense otherwise.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#94257

FromBlaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com>
Date2026-10-18 16:09 -0600
Message-ID<11b3g25$1hpjj$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94249
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 11:31:00 -0600, Blaine wrote:
> 
>> Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 18:07:08 -0600, Blaine wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am suggesting that someone "new" to Python shouldn't import very
>>>> many packages, as they can overlap problematically.
>>>
>>> How “overlap”?
>>>
>> This paper examines two manifestations of the problem. First, it
>> analyzes dependency conflicts surrounding the Jupyter ecosystem,
>> with emphasis on jupyter-client, ipykernel, notebook, and related
>> packages. Second, it examines a more subtle form of conflict in
>> which a function is silently substituted or renamed, causing a
>> fundamentally different probabilistic behavior.
>>
>> [long screed deleted]
> 
> Copied-and-pasted AI slop, is it? I notice the lack of attribution,
> and the fact that it doesn’t make any sense otherwise.
> 
Is that your final answer?

I'll have my attorney review it and see if his observations are the same.

Please don't tell me you didn't read it.

-- 
Can you strip away so we may start again?
"There’s a switch and they don't
seem authentic or themselves. It
feels like I’m an unnecessary
body and it’s a waste of time to
even be there." -- Grim, playful Blaine.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#94276

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2026-10-19 02:58 +0000
Message-ID<njlf9vFei39U46@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#94257
On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 16:09:07 -0600, Blaine wrote:

> I'll have my attorney review it and see if his observations are the
> same.

Is your attorney's name Claude?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#94281

FromBlaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com>
Date2026-10-18 21:43 -0600
Message-ID<11b43km$1nfci$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94276
rbowman wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 16:09:07 -0600, Blaine wrote:
> 
>> I'll have my attorney review it and see if his observations are the
>> same.
> 
> Is your attorney's name Claude?
> 
No, my attorney's name is Blaine. You know, pro se?

-- 
Can you strip away so we may start again?
"There’s a switch and they don't
seem authentic or themselves. It
feels like I’m an unnecessary
body and it’s a waste of time to
even be there." -- Grim, playful Blaine.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#94285

FromKeith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com>
Date2026-10-18 21:22 -0700
Message-ID<11b45tm$1nugu$1@kst.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#94203
Blaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> writes:
> Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 18:07:08 -0600, Blaine wrote:
>> 
>>> I am suggesting that someone "new" to Python shouldn't import very
>>> many packages, as they can overlap problematically.
>> How “overlap”?
>> 
> This paper examines two manifestations of the problem.
[snip]

Does the phrase "This paper" refer to the Usenet post in which it
appears, or to some other paper published elsewhere?  (It's uncommon
to refer to Usenet posts as "papers".)

A followup suggests it was AI-generated.  Was it?  (I don't much
care either way, but I'm curious -- and if it was AI-generated I'm
not going to bother reading it.)

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#94126

FromStéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr>
Date2026-10-18 09:57 +0000
Message-ID<6ad497ed$0$10304$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
In reply to#94096
Le 18-10-2026, Blaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> a écrit :
>
> Because I tricked you into thinking, "To begin" means "well here we go 
> again." I intentionally made it obscure that I am instructing the 
> beginner on this point. I am suggesting that someone "new" to Python 
> shouldn't import very many packages, as they can overlap problematically.

One of the power of python is the number of available packages. As the
saying go, in C you have a million ways to do what you want when in
python you have a million packages to do what you want.

So, telling beginners that python is great because it has so many
packages, but one should try to avoid using them can be a little bit
confusing.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#94237

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2026-10-18 20:05 +0000
Message-ID<njkn46Fei39U35@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#94126
On 18 Oct 2026 09:57:01 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

> So, telling beginners that python is great because it has so many
> packages, but one should try to avoid using them can be a little bit
> confusing.

Confusing but after seeing posts like 'Hi, I'm starting to learn Python. 
How do I use numpy?'  you want to scream 'learn the basics first!'

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#94246

FromBlaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com>
Date2026-10-18 14:38 -0600
Message-ID<11b3ao8$1frhv$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94237
rbowman wrote:
> On 18 Oct 2026 09:57:01 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> 
>> So, telling beginners that python is great because it has so many
>> packages, but one should try to avoid using them can be a little bit
>> confusing.
> 
> Confusing but after seeing posts like 'Hi, I'm starting to learn Python.
> How do I use numpy?'  you want to scream 'learn the basics first!'
> 
I had to put numpy back on the shelf. The use I found for it to this 
point was 3D placement. But it says somewhere in small print: don't use 
this for small vectors (3 per vector in 3D placement).

-- 
Can you strip away so we may start again?
"There’s a switch and they don't
seem authentic or themselves. It
feels like I’m an unnecessary
body and it’s a waste of time to
even be there." -- Grim, playful Blaine.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#94248

FromLawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2026-10-18 21:38 +0000
Message-ID<11b3e82$1h3cv$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94246
On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 14:38:31 -0600, Blaine wrote:

> I had to put numpy back on the shelf. The use I found for it to this
> point was 3D placement. But it says somewhere in small print: don't
> use this for small vectors (3 per vector in 3D placement).

Did you understand that by “small vectors” they meant “arrays of few
elements”, not “vectors with dimensions as few as 3”?

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#94256

FromBlaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com>
Date2026-10-18 16:07 -0600
Message-ID<11b3fur$1hpjj$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94248
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 14:38:31 -0600, Blaine wrote:
> 
>> I had to put numpy back on the shelf. The use I found for it to this
>> point was 3D placement. But it says somewhere in small print: don't
>> use this for small vectors (3 per vector in 3D placement).
> 
> Did you understand that by “small vectors” they meant “arrays of few
> elements”, not “vectors with dimensions as few as 3”?
> 
True. Perchance I could have wrapped the vectors together making a data 
group of larger size.

-- 
Can you strip away so we may start again?
"There’s a switch and they don't
seem authentic or themselves. It
feels like I’m an unnecessary
body and it’s a waste of time to
even be there." -- Grim, playful Blaine.

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#94253

FromPiergiorgio Sartor <piergiorgio.sartor.this.should.not.be.used@nexgo.REMOVETHIS.de>
Date2026-10-18 23:44 +0200
Message-ID<17rfqm-jkc1.ln1@lazy.lzy>
In reply to#94237
On 18/10/2026 22.05, rbowman wrote:
[...]
> Confusing but after seeing posts like 'Hi, I'm starting to learn Python.
> How do I use numpy?'  you want to scream 'learn the basics first!'

Why?
Maybe such person is interested in numpy for
something matlab-like, but not in python as such.

Which brings us back to the "too many libraries"
pyhton has.

For any thinkable application there is likely a
python library, but the person interested in
the application, might not really be interested
in python, if not for the convenience of having
almost everything already cooked.

A bit of chicken / egg problem...

bye,

-- 

piergiorgio

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#94258

FromLawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2026-10-18 22:09 +0000
Message-ID<11b3g34$1h3cv$6@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94253
On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 23:44:33 +0200, Piergiorgio Sartor wrote:

> Which brings us back to the "too many libraries" [Python] has.

At some point, people were staying away from Python because it didn’t
have enough libraries. Now the new excuse is that it has too many.

It’s not like getting married, you know; you can try a few, pick the
one(s) you find useful, and chuck the rest. That’s what choice is all
about, and Open Source is all about choice.

> For any thinkable application there is likely a python library, but
> the person interested in the application, might not really be
> interested in python, if not for the convenience of having almost
> everything already cooked.

That's what attracts people to Python.

Why do you think Python has been able to achieve such a state, to a
greater extent than any prior language? Even overtaking ones that had
some quite big corporate heavyweight sponsorship behind them?

Clue: it must have been something about the core language to begin
with, that made it such an attactive basis to build on.

> A bit of chicken / egg problem...

It’s not Python that has the chicken/egg problem ...

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#94292

FromPiergiorgio Sartor <piergiorgio.sartor.this.should.not.be.used@nexgo.REMOVETHIS.de>
Date2026-10-19 09:54 +0200
Message-ID<kuugqm-7ub.ln1@lazy.lzy>
In reply to#94258
On 19/10/2026 00.09, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
[...]
> At some point, people were staying away from Python because it didn’t
> have enough libraries. Now the new excuse is that it has too many.

No, the situation is the opposite.
People use python because of the libraries,
the very easy way to use them, but might not
care less about the language itself.
The language is just a commodity, it has no
rewarding features, except for the libraries.

Note that this is just an interpretation,
not necessarily my opinion.
Generally speaking I find the language OKish,
even if I can see few improvements here and there.

> It’s not like getting married, you know; you can try a few, pick the
> one(s) you find useful, and chuck the rest. That’s what choice is all
> about, and Open Source is all about choice.

Oh, I cannot agree more.

>> For any thinkable application there is likely a python library, but
>> the person interested in the application, might not really be
>> interested in python, if not for the convenience of having almost
>> everything already cooked.
> 
> That's what attracts people to Python.
> 
> Why do you think Python has been able to achieve such a state, to a
> greater extent than any prior language? Even overtaking ones that had
> some quite big corporate heavyweight sponsorship behind them?
> 
> Clue: it must have been something about the core language to begin
> with, that made it such an attactive basis to build on.

Not 100% sure about that.

Initially python was sold as java replacement,
but free from corporate interests.

Later it developed in something much greater.
To the point that even corporates adopted it.

Just a different perspective.

>> A bit of chicken / egg problem...
> 
> It’s not Python that has the chicken/egg problem ...

Of course not, but some users have it.

bye,

-- 

piergiorgio

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#94297

FromLawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2026-10-19 08:40 +0000
Message-ID<11b4l2g$1st2r$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94292
On Mon, 19 Oct 2026 09:54:28 +0200, Piergiorgio Sartor wrote:

> On 19/10/2026 00.09, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>> Why do you think Python has been able to achieve such a state, to a
>> greater extent than any prior language? Even overtaking ones that
>> had some quite big corporate heavyweight sponsorship behind them?
>>
>> Clue: it must have been something about the core language to begin
>> with, that made it such an attactive basis to build on.
>
> Not 100% sure about that.
>
> Initially python was sold as java replacement, but free from
> corporate interests.

How was it “sold”, if it was being given away for free by a nonprofit
dependent on volunteer support?

Remember the corporate interests have access to million-dollar
publicity budgets that no Free Software project can afford.

Consider Microsoft Basic, for example, with the backing of the world’s
most powerful computer company behind it. For building up a critical
mass of libraries, it had a head start, not just of a few years, but
of a decade or two, on Python. Yet nobody uses it any more. How come?

Even Java had the support of Sun, probably the most successful Unix
company. Yet Python has managed to overtake that, as well.

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#94299

FromPiergiorgio Sartor <piergiorgio.sartor.this.should.not.be.used@nexgo.REMOVETHIS.de>
Date2026-10-19 10:55 +0200
Message-ID<hh2hqm-6ub.ln1@lazy.lzy>
In reply to#94297
On 19/10/2026 10.40, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
[...]
> How was it “sold”, if it was being given away for free by a nonprofit
> dependent on volunteer support?

Oh, come on!
Sold! "Sold"? It's common English expression, not
involving money, but intentions.

It means some people, users, developers, were
"advertising" (without any budget) python as a
nice alternative to java (which was seen more closed).
That's it. Budget does not play a role, here.

I remember clearly an article chastising java
for becoming "irrelevant *scripting* language
(like python)".
Imagine that...

This is a different perspective, alternative to
"language is so good, that's why it's successful".
> Remember the corporate interests have access to million-dollar
> publicity budgets that no Free Software project can afford.

That does not seem to work either way.
Linux was successful without publicity budget, it seems.
On the other hand, OS/2 was not that successful, despite
a large potential publicity budget.

So what?

Things are not always what they seem or what
they are supposed or the are wished to be.

bye,

-- 

piergiorgio

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#94247

FromLawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2026-10-18 21:36 +0000
Message-ID<11b3e5a$1h3cv$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94126
On 18 Oct 2026 09:57:01 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

> So, telling beginners that python is great because it has so many
> packages, but one should try to avoid using them can be a little bit
> confusing.

More likely an indication that the person giving such advice is ...
confused ... ;)

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#94286

Fromc186282 <c186282@nnada.net>
Date2026-10-19 00:22 -0400
Message-ID<KuOdnQWAzoudBkj3nZ2dnZfqnPSdnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#94126
On 10/18/26 05:57, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 18-10-2026, Blaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> a écrit :
>>
>> Because I tricked you into thinking, "To begin" means "well here we go
>> again." I intentionally made it obscure that I am instructing the
>> beginner on this point. I am suggesting that someone "new" to Python
>> shouldn't import very many packages, as they can overlap problematically.
> 
> One of the power of python is the number of available packages. As the
> saying go, in C you have a million ways to do what you want when in
> python you have a million packages to do what you want.
> 
> So, telling beginners that python is great because it has so many
> packages, but one should try to avoid using them can be a little bit
> confusing.

   However the number of libs, there is more GOOD DOCUMENTATION
   these days for the Python stuff. Too much 'C' stuff just
   ASSUMES you know every what/why/how because you're such a
   great mighty 'C' programmer, of course. Also can be many
   more options, ok optional SCREW-UPS, with any 'C' libs you
   find. The more 'plain English' aspects of Python often get
   you going sooner with less bullshit. Leave the fiddly  'C'
   to the people who write the Python libs. Python, mostly,
   Just Works smooth and simple.

   There are advantages in 'C' and advantages in Python. All
   depends on what you are DOING.

   As said, for 30+ years I did most everything in 'C' or
   Pascal. Past five years, almost entirely in Python.
   Pascal is more elegant and self-documenting, and
   FPC/Lazarus IS  by far the quickest way to a usable GUI,
   but some of the functions/structures ARE less clean
   than 'C', kinda afterthoughts glued on to the Wirthian
   foundation.

   Pick the best tool for the job at hand. No 'religion'.

   These days, for 90% at least, the Best Tool is
   probably Python. Some stuff you'll have to strong-
   arm it to do ... so look elsewhere.

   Oh, 'found' for Linux, the TCC, Tiny-C Compiler. Does
   MANY useful things GCC and LLVM/Clang can do but produces
   tighter code faster. Added it to Code::Blocks as an option
   easy to switch to. Great for 'utilities'.

   Still trying to find a good use/reason for 'D' - still
   preferable to Rust in my aesthetic  :-)

   Oh well, there's always FORTRAN and COBOL ... do on odd
   occasion write something in FORTRAN, but would rather
   forget COBOL :-)

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#94101

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2026-10-18 02:49 +0000
Message-ID<njiqeaFei39U22@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#94082
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 20:36:37 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:

>> ... so well that now some distros don't let you install libraries with
>> pip if you are not in a virtual environment.
> 
> Do other languages get away with allowing you to override standard
> system libraries without breaking things?

I prefer venvs, particularly when using uv to set a Python version. For 
example when tensorflow says Python 3.9-3.12 they don't mean 3.13, 3.14, 
or 3.15. 

One annoyance is the different site packages on the various distros. For 
example on Fedora you can install python3-ruff as a site package with 
dnf.  On Ubuntu 26.04 you get 'Error: Unable to locate package python3-
ruff' and have to install it in a venv.

No big deal but it's easier to create the venv for the project just in 
case.

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