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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #93793 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000 |
| Last post | 2026-10-18 10:59 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 296 — 24 participants |
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Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 00:00 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 04:33 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 21:53 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 01:31 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 06:08 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:39 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:49 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:53 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 05:26 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:29 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:31 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:16 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 19:42 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:44 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:55 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:20 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:20 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 11:09 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 12:54 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:15 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:05 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:54 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 16:46 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 16:57 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 19:01 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:48 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Harold Stevens <wookie@bookworm.localdomain> - 2026-10-17 08:26 -0500
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 15:01 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:52 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:30 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:48 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:17 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:30 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:54 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 19:56 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 04:32 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:30 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:13 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 14:19 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:38 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 15:10 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:58 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 15:33 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 14:23 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-19 03:03 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 20:11 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:53 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 13:00 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 09:39 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:58 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:55 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:48 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:20 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:59 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:20 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:50 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:48 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:25 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 20:15 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:36 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 14:57 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-16 08:41 -0700
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:08 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 20:11 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-18 18:52 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-19 03:55 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:58 +0200
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:27 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 04:15 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:41 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:00 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:57 +0100
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Page 12 of 15 — ← Prev page 1 … 10 11 [12] 13 14 15 Next page →
| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 03:05 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11b1d21$pt5v$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94096 |
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 18:07:08 -0600, Blaine wrote: > I am suggesting that someone "new" to Python shouldn't import very > many packages, as they can overlap problematically. How “overlap”?
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Blaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 11:31 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <11b2vol$1bfc3$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94103 |
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: > On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 18:07:08 -0600, Blaine wrote: > >> I am suggesting that someone "new" to Python shouldn't import very >> many packages, as they can overlap problematically. > > How “overlap”? > This paper examines two manifestations of the problem. First, it analyzes dependency conflicts surrounding the Jupyter ecosystem, with emphasis on jupyter-client, ipykernel, notebook, and related packages. Second, it examines a more subtle form of conflict in which a function is silently substituted or renamed, causing a fundamentally different probabilistic behavior. As a case study, we consider situations where code expecting a uniform random generator instead receives a Gaussian random generator. The central thesis is that package conflicts and semantic substitutions are not separate issues. Both arise when software components rely upon assumptions that are no longer true. ________________________________________ 1. Introduction Many software failures originate not in algorithms but in assumptions. An algorithm may be mathematically correct. A class hierarchy may be perfectly designed. Unit tests may pass. Yet the system fails because one component assumes: Python f() returns a uniform random sample while another component provides: Python f() returns a Gaussian random sample Likewise: Python Package A assumes jupyter-client 7.x while: Python Package B assumes jupyter-client 8.x In both cases, the failure results from incompatible expectations. The experienced developer often focuses on explicit code. Dependency conflicts remind us that software behavior is also determined by implicit contracts. ________________________________________ 2. The Role of jupyter-client The Jupyter ecosystem consists of multiple cooperating packages. Among them: jupyter-client notebook jupyter-server ipykernel nbclient jupyter-console Many developers think of Jupyter as a notebook interface. In reality, it is a distributed messaging architecture. A typical execution path looks like: Plain Text Notebook UI | jupyter-server | jupyter-client | ipykernel | Python interpreter The package jupyter-client acts as a communications layer between front-end applications and kernels. This position makes it especially sensitive to compatibility problems. ________________________________________ 3. Why jupyter-client Conflicts Occur The primary reason is version coordination. Suppose: Plain Text Notebook requires: jupyter-client >= 7 Kernel package requires: jupyter-client < 7 The package manager cannot satisfy both constraints. The experienced developer often views this as a deployment issue. However, the deeper reality is that each package encodes a model of expected behavior. One package believes the communication protocol behaves one way. Another package expects a different behavior. The conflict merely exposes the disagreement. ________________________________________ 4. Layered Dependency Assumptions Consider the dependency graph: Plain Text Application | Notebook | ipykernel | jupyter-client | pyzmq Every layer depends upon assumptions from lower layers. When a developer upgrades: Shell pip install --upgrade notebook they may unknowingly alter assumptions several layers below. The resulting failure often appears unrelated to the action that caused it. This makes troubleshooting difficult. ________________________________________ 5. False Attribution of Failure One of the most interesting cognitive errors among experienced developers is false attribution. Suppose notebook execution suddenly fails. The developer investigates: the notebook code the data the operating system Yet the true cause is: Plain Text jupyter-client version mismatch A package conflict resembles a hidden variable in an experiment. Without awareness of dependency interactions, the developer can spend hours debugging code that is functioning correctly. ________________________________________ 6. Dependency Hell as Assumption Hell The phrase "dependency hell" is common. A more accurate description may be: assumption hell. A successful installation requires agreement among many independent authors. Each author makes assumptions about: APIs object behavior exception formats message protocols return values Dependency conflicts occur when those assumptions diverge. The package manager is merely the messenger. ________________________________________ 7. Lessons From jupyter-client For experienced developers, the central lesson is not package pinning. The lesson is architectural. A package version should be treated like: a protocol version, a database schema, a network contract. Changing versions changes assumptions. The number itself is not important. The assumptions behind the number are. ________________________________________ 8. Semantic Substitution and Function Renames We now turn to a different class of problem. Suppose a developer expects: Python random.random() This generates values from a uniform distribution. Specifically: Plain Text 0 <= x < 1 with equal probability across the interval. Now imagine a package update or local wrapper introduces: Python gaussian_random() and maps it to the same interface. The function still returns a number. No exception occurs. No warning appears. Yet the semantics have changed completely. ________________________________________ 9. Uniform Versus Gaussian Distributions A uniform distribution: Plain Text U(0,1) assigns equal probability throughout the interval. A Gaussian distribution: Plain Text N(0,1) clusters near the mean. Graphically: Plain Text Uniform: ********** ********** ********** Gaussian: ** **** ****** ******** ****** **** ** To many testing frameworks, both outputs appear valid. Both produce floating-point numbers. The mistake may survive for months. ________________________________________ 10. Unexpected Consequences Consider a simulation. The programmer intends: Python angle = random.random() * 360 The angles should be evenly distributed. Substitution with Gaussian behavior produces clustering. The simulation develops bias. Examples include: Monte Carlo analysis particle systems game mechanics optimization algorithms machine learning experiments The code may remain syntactically correct while becoming scientifically invalid. -- Can you strip away so we may start again? "There’s a switch and they don't seem authentic or themselves. It feels like I’m an unnecessary body and it’s a waste of time to even be there." -- Grim, playful Blaine.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 21:40 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11b3ecd$1h3cv$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94203 |
On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 11:31:00 -0600, Blaine wrote: > Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: >> >> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 18:07:08 -0600, Blaine wrote: >> >>> I am suggesting that someone "new" to Python shouldn't import very >>> many packages, as they can overlap problematically. >> >> How “overlap”? >> > This paper examines two manifestations of the problem. First, it > analyzes dependency conflicts surrounding the Jupyter ecosystem, > with emphasis on jupyter-client, ipykernel, notebook, and related > packages. Second, it examines a more subtle form of conflict in > which a function is silently substituted or renamed, causing a > fundamentally different probabilistic behavior. > > [long screed deleted] Copied-and-pasted AI slop, is it? I notice the lack of attribution, and the fact that it doesn’t make any sense otherwise.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Blaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 16:09 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <11b3g25$1hpjj$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94249 |
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: > On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 11:31:00 -0600, Blaine wrote: > >> Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: >>> >>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 18:07:08 -0600, Blaine wrote: >>> >>>> I am suggesting that someone "new" to Python shouldn't import very >>>> many packages, as they can overlap problematically. >>> >>> How “overlap”? >>> >> This paper examines two manifestations of the problem. First, it >> analyzes dependency conflicts surrounding the Jupyter ecosystem, >> with emphasis on jupyter-client, ipykernel, notebook, and related >> packages. Second, it examines a more subtle form of conflict in >> which a function is silently substituted or renamed, causing a >> fundamentally different probabilistic behavior. >> >> [long screed deleted] > > Copied-and-pasted AI slop, is it? I notice the lack of attribution, > and the fact that it doesn’t make any sense otherwise. > Is that your final answer? I'll have my attorney review it and see if his observations are the same. Please don't tell me you didn't read it. -- Can you strip away so we may start again? "There’s a switch and they don't seem authentic or themselves. It feels like I’m an unnecessary body and it’s a waste of time to even be there." -- Grim, playful Blaine.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-19 02:58 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <njlf9vFei39U46@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94257 |
On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 16:09:07 -0600, Blaine wrote: > I'll have my attorney review it and see if his observations are the > same. Is your attorney's name Claude?
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Blaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 21:43 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <11b43km$1nfci$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94276 |
rbowman wrote: > On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 16:09:07 -0600, Blaine wrote: > >> I'll have my attorney review it and see if his observations are the >> same. > > Is your attorney's name Claude? > No, my attorney's name is Blaine. You know, pro se? -- Can you strip away so we may start again? "There’s a switch and they don't seem authentic or themselves. It feels like I’m an unnecessary body and it’s a waste of time to even be there." -- Grim, playful Blaine.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 21:22 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <11b45tm$1nugu$1@kst.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #94203 |
Blaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> writes:
> Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 18:07:08 -0600, Blaine wrote:
>>
>>> I am suggesting that someone "new" to Python shouldn't import very
>>> many packages, as they can overlap problematically.
>> How “overlap”?
>>
> This paper examines two manifestations of the problem.
[snip]
Does the phrase "This paper" refer to the Usenet post in which it
appears, or to some other paper published elsewhere? (It's uncommon
to refer to Usenet posts as "papers".)
A followup suggests it was AI-generated. Was it? (I don't much
care either way, but I'm curious -- and if it was AI-generated I'm
not going to bother reading it.)
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */
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| From | Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 09:57 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <6ad497ed$0$10304$426a74cc@news.free.fr> |
| In reply to | #94096 |
Le 18-10-2026, Blaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> a écrit : > > Because I tricked you into thinking, "To begin" means "well here we go > again." I intentionally made it obscure that I am instructing the > beginner on this point. I am suggesting that someone "new" to Python > shouldn't import very many packages, as they can overlap problematically. One of the power of python is the number of available packages. As the saying go, in C you have a million ways to do what you want when in python you have a million packages to do what you want. So, telling beginners that python is great because it has so many packages, but one should try to avoid using them can be a little bit confusing. -- Si vous avez du temps à perdre : https://scarpet42.gitlab.io
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 20:05 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <njkn46Fei39U35@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94126 |
On 18 Oct 2026 09:57:01 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: > So, telling beginners that python is great because it has so many > packages, but one should try to avoid using them can be a little bit > confusing. Confusing but after seeing posts like 'Hi, I'm starting to learn Python. How do I use numpy?' you want to scream 'learn the basics first!'
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Blaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 14:38 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <11b3ao8$1frhv$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94237 |
rbowman wrote: > On 18 Oct 2026 09:57:01 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: > >> So, telling beginners that python is great because it has so many >> packages, but one should try to avoid using them can be a little bit >> confusing. > > Confusing but after seeing posts like 'Hi, I'm starting to learn Python. > How do I use numpy?' you want to scream 'learn the basics first!' > I had to put numpy back on the shelf. The use I found for it to this point was 3D placement. But it says somewhere in small print: don't use this for small vectors (3 per vector in 3D placement). -- Can you strip away so we may start again? "There’s a switch and they don't seem authentic or themselves. It feels like I’m an unnecessary body and it’s a waste of time to even be there." -- Grim, playful Blaine.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 21:38 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11b3e82$1h3cv$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94246 |
On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 14:38:31 -0600, Blaine wrote: > I had to put numpy back on the shelf. The use I found for it to this > point was 3D placement. But it says somewhere in small print: don't > use this for small vectors (3 per vector in 3D placement). Did you understand that by “small vectors” they meant “arrays of few elements”, not “vectors with dimensions as few as 3”?
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Blaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 16:07 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <11b3fur$1hpjj$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94248 |
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: > On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 14:38:31 -0600, Blaine wrote: > >> I had to put numpy back on the shelf. The use I found for it to this >> point was 3D placement. But it says somewhere in small print: don't >> use this for small vectors (3 per vector in 3D placement). > > Did you understand that by “small vectors” they meant “arrays of few > elements”, not “vectors with dimensions as few as 3”? > True. Perchance I could have wrapped the vectors together making a data group of larger size. -- Can you strip away so we may start again? "There’s a switch and they don't seem authentic or themselves. It feels like I’m an unnecessary body and it’s a waste of time to even be there." -- Grim, playful Blaine.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Piergiorgio Sartor <piergiorgio.sartor.this.should.not.be.used@nexgo.REMOVETHIS.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 23:44 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <17rfqm-jkc1.ln1@lazy.lzy> |
| In reply to | #94237 |
On 18/10/2026 22.05, rbowman wrote: [...] > Confusing but after seeing posts like 'Hi, I'm starting to learn Python. > How do I use numpy?' you want to scream 'learn the basics first!' Why? Maybe such person is interested in numpy for something matlab-like, but not in python as such. Which brings us back to the "too many libraries" pyhton has. For any thinkable application there is likely a python library, but the person interested in the application, might not really be interested in python, if not for the convenience of having almost everything already cooked. A bit of chicken / egg problem... bye, -- piergiorgio
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 22:09 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11b3g34$1h3cv$6@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94253 |
On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 23:44:33 +0200, Piergiorgio Sartor wrote: > Which brings us back to the "too many libraries" [Python] has. At some point, people were staying away from Python because it didn’t have enough libraries. Now the new excuse is that it has too many. It’s not like getting married, you know; you can try a few, pick the one(s) you find useful, and chuck the rest. That’s what choice is all about, and Open Source is all about choice. > For any thinkable application there is likely a python library, but > the person interested in the application, might not really be > interested in python, if not for the convenience of having almost > everything already cooked. That's what attracts people to Python. Why do you think Python has been able to achieve such a state, to a greater extent than any prior language? Even overtaking ones that had some quite big corporate heavyweight sponsorship behind them? Clue: it must have been something about the core language to begin with, that made it such an attactive basis to build on. > A bit of chicken / egg problem... It’s not Python that has the chicken/egg problem ...
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| From | Piergiorgio Sartor <piergiorgio.sartor.this.should.not.be.used@nexgo.REMOVETHIS.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-19 09:54 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <kuugqm-7ub.ln1@lazy.lzy> |
| In reply to | #94258 |
On 19/10/2026 00.09, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: [...] > At some point, people were staying away from Python because it didn’t > have enough libraries. Now the new excuse is that it has too many. No, the situation is the opposite. People use python because of the libraries, the very easy way to use them, but might not care less about the language itself. The language is just a commodity, it has no rewarding features, except for the libraries. Note that this is just an interpretation, not necessarily my opinion. Generally speaking I find the language OKish, even if I can see few improvements here and there. > It’s not like getting married, you know; you can try a few, pick the > one(s) you find useful, and chuck the rest. That’s what choice is all > about, and Open Source is all about choice. Oh, I cannot agree more. >> For any thinkable application there is likely a python library, but >> the person interested in the application, might not really be >> interested in python, if not for the convenience of having almost >> everything already cooked. > > That's what attracts people to Python. > > Why do you think Python has been able to achieve such a state, to a > greater extent than any prior language? Even overtaking ones that had > some quite big corporate heavyweight sponsorship behind them? > > Clue: it must have been something about the core language to begin > with, that made it such an attactive basis to build on. Not 100% sure about that. Initially python was sold as java replacement, but free from corporate interests. Later it developed in something much greater. To the point that even corporates adopted it. Just a different perspective. >> A bit of chicken / egg problem... > > It’s not Python that has the chicken/egg problem ... Of course not, but some users have it. bye, -- piergiorgio
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
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| Date | 2026-10-19 08:40 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11b4l2g$1st2r$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94292 |
On Mon, 19 Oct 2026 09:54:28 +0200, Piergiorgio Sartor wrote: > On 19/10/2026 00.09, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: >> >> Why do you think Python has been able to achieve such a state, to a >> greater extent than any prior language? Even overtaking ones that >> had some quite big corporate heavyweight sponsorship behind them? >> >> Clue: it must have been something about the core language to begin >> with, that made it such an attactive basis to build on. > > Not 100% sure about that. > > Initially python was sold as java replacement, but free from > corporate interests. How was it “sold”, if it was being given away for free by a nonprofit dependent on volunteer support? Remember the corporate interests have access to million-dollar publicity budgets that no Free Software project can afford. Consider Microsoft Basic, for example, with the backing of the world’s most powerful computer company behind it. For building up a critical mass of libraries, it had a head start, not just of a few years, but of a decade or two, on Python. Yet nobody uses it any more. How come? Even Java had the support of Sun, probably the most successful Unix company. Yet Python has managed to overtake that, as well.
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| From | Piergiorgio Sartor <piergiorgio.sartor.this.should.not.be.used@nexgo.REMOVETHIS.de> |
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| Date | 2026-10-19 10:55 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <hh2hqm-6ub.ln1@lazy.lzy> |
| In reply to | #94297 |
On 19/10/2026 10.40, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: [...] > How was it “sold”, if it was being given away for free by a nonprofit > dependent on volunteer support? Oh, come on! Sold! "Sold"? It's common English expression, not involving money, but intentions. It means some people, users, developers, were "advertising" (without any budget) python as a nice alternative to java (which was seen more closed). That's it. Budget does not play a role, here. I remember clearly an article chastising java for becoming "irrelevant *scripting* language (like python)". Imagine that... This is a different perspective, alternative to "language is so good, that's why it's successful". > Remember the corporate interests have access to million-dollar > publicity budgets that no Free Software project can afford. That does not seem to work either way. Linux was successful without publicity budget, it seems. On the other hand, OS/2 was not that successful, despite a large potential publicity budget. So what? Things are not always what they seem or what they are supposed or the are wished to be. bye, -- piergiorgio
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
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| Date | 2026-10-18 21:36 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11b3e5a$1h3cv$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94126 |
On 18 Oct 2026 09:57:01 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: > So, telling beginners that python is great because it has so many > packages, but one should try to avoid using them can be a little bit > confusing. More likely an indication that the person giving such advice is ... confused ... ;)
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
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| Date | 2026-10-19 00:22 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <KuOdnQWAzoudBkj3nZ2dnZfqnPSdnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #94126 |
On 10/18/26 05:57, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: > Le 18-10-2026, Blaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> a écrit : >> >> Because I tricked you into thinking, "To begin" means "well here we go >> again." I intentionally made it obscure that I am instructing the >> beginner on this point. I am suggesting that someone "new" to Python >> shouldn't import very many packages, as they can overlap problematically. > > One of the power of python is the number of available packages. As the > saying go, in C you have a million ways to do what you want when in > python you have a million packages to do what you want. > > So, telling beginners that python is great because it has so many > packages, but one should try to avoid using them can be a little bit > confusing. However the number of libs, there is more GOOD DOCUMENTATION these days for the Python stuff. Too much 'C' stuff just ASSUMES you know every what/why/how because you're such a great mighty 'C' programmer, of course. Also can be many more options, ok optional SCREW-UPS, with any 'C' libs you find. The more 'plain English' aspects of Python often get you going sooner with less bullshit. Leave the fiddly 'C' to the people who write the Python libs. Python, mostly, Just Works smooth and simple. There are advantages in 'C' and advantages in Python. All depends on what you are DOING. As said, for 30+ years I did most everything in 'C' or Pascal. Past five years, almost entirely in Python. Pascal is more elegant and self-documenting, and FPC/Lazarus IS by far the quickest way to a usable GUI, but some of the functions/structures ARE less clean than 'C', kinda afterthoughts glued on to the Wirthian foundation. Pick the best tool for the job at hand. No 'religion'. These days, for 90% at least, the Best Tool is probably Python. Some stuff you'll have to strong- arm it to do ... so look elsewhere. Oh, 'found' for Linux, the TCC, Tiny-C Compiler. Does MANY useful things GCC and LLVM/Clang can do but produces tighter code faster. Added it to Code::Blocks as an option easy to switch to. Great for 'utilities'. Still trying to find a good use/reason for 'D' - still preferable to Rust in my aesthetic :-) Oh well, there's always FORTRAN and COBOL ... do on odd occasion write something in FORTRAN, but would rather forget COBOL :-)
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 02:49 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <njiqeaFei39U22@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94082 |
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 20:36:37 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: >> ... so well that now some distros don't let you install libraries with >> pip if you are not in a virtual environment. > > Do other languages get away with allowing you to override standard > system libraries without breaking things? I prefer venvs, particularly when using uv to set a Python version. For example when tensorflow says Python 3.9-3.12 they don't mean 3.13, 3.14, or 3.15. One annoyance is the different site packages on the various distros. For example on Fedora you can install python3-ruff as a site package with dnf. On Ubuntu 26.04 you get 'Error: Unable to locate package python3- ruff' and have to install it in a venv. No big deal but it's easier to create the venv for the project just in case.
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