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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #93793 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000 |
| Last post | 2026-10-18 10:59 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 284 — 24 participants |
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Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 00:00 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 04:33 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 21:53 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 01:31 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 06:08 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:39 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:49 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:53 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 05:26 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:29 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:31 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:16 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 19:42 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:44 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:55 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:20 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:20 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 11:09 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 12:54 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:15 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:05 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:54 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 16:46 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 16:57 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 19:01 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:48 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Harold Stevens <wookie@bookworm.localdomain> - 2026-10-17 08:26 -0500
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 15:01 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:52 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:30 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:17 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:30 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:54 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 19:56 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 04:32 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:30 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:13 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 14:19 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:38 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 15:10 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:58 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 16:04 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 15:33 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 14:23 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 20:37 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-19 03:03 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 20:11 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:53 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 13:00 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 13:26 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:50 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 20:19 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:43 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:19 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:48 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:20 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-17 06:37 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:59 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:20 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:50 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:48 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:25 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 20:15 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:36 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 14:57 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 23:16 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 07:45 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-16 08:41 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 18:27 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 23:43 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:31 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:00 -0400
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-19 03:22 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:58 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 20:07 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:41 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:27 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:00 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:57 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 10:56 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:26 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:32 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 09:24 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:27 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:20 +0100
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| From | John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 14:19 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <11b2dfs$140nj$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94165 |
On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote: [..] > A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some > fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune. > > No theory required A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code. Fiddle some more and it's a computer program. No theory required. -- Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/ Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 13:38 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11b2eks$11pis$28@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94166 |
On 18/10/2026 13:19, John Bokma wrote:
> On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> [..]
>> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some
>> fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune.
>>
>> No theory required
>
> A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to
> copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code.
> Fiddle some more and it's a computer program.
>
> No theory required.
>
And most of them are writing websites at 18
This thread was originally about those who claim that practice is
impossible without theory, and those who say that in reality, theory
comes much later and is often virtually useless and may indeed be
counterproductive.
I remember talking to Gary Moore, the late Irish blues guitarist, I was
a sound engineer of sorts, and asking him how he set up his amplifiers
and guitars 'I just fiddle with the knobs and switches till I find a
sound I like, and then forget about it'
I remember an interview in 'studio sound' when another guitarist was
asked by he ran his loudspeakers with the drive units exposed. Was it a
special sound he was after?
"No", he replied, "it's so that when a unit fails I can kick it in on
stage and stop it buzzing".
Or the famous Murray Walker FI commentator sychpohantically asking Alan
Jones, the Australian racing drive "How important rear tyres were in the
race"
A lead in no Australian could resist:
"Well Murray, they do play a big part in stopping the rear of the car
dragging along the road"
--
"Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
higher education positively fortifies it."
- Stephen Vizinczey
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| From | John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 15:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <11b2ggj$15dit$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94176 |
On 18/10/2026 14:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 18/10/2026 13:19, John Bokma wrote: >> On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> [..] >>> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some >>> fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune. >>> >>> No theory required >> >> A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to >> copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code. >> Fiddle some more and it's a computer program. >> >> No theory required. >> > And most of them are writing websites at 18 Most 5 year olds are not making tunes with a recorder ;-). As for websites, I doubt that. Especially not the ones who use Copilot at age 15. > This thread was originally about those who claim that practice is > impossible without theory, and those who say that in reality, theory > comes much later and is often virtually useless and may indeed be > counterproductive. I think the same has been said about computer science and writing software. At least I have seen plenty of self-taught coders pissing on theory, often with examples how a science student messed up and how they fixed it (or "fixed it"). -- Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/ Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 14:58 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11b2ja9$11pis$39@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94181 |
On 18/10/2026 14:10, John Bokma wrote: > On 18/10/2026 14:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> On 18/10/2026 13:19, John Bokma wrote: >>> On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>> [..] >>>> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some >>>> fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune. >>>> >>>> No theory required >>> >>> A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to >>> copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code. >>> Fiddle some more and it's a computer program. >>> >>> No theory required. >>> >> And most of them are writing websites at 18 > > Most 5 year olds are not making tunes with a recorder ;-). Arent they? Pretty sure in my time they were. > As for > websites, I doubt that. Especially not the ones who use Copilot at age 15. > >> This thread was originally about those who claim that practice is >> impossible without theory, and those who say that in reality, theory >> comes much later and is often virtually useless and may indeed be >> counterproductive. > > I think the same has been said about computer science and writing > software. At least I have seen plenty of self-taught coders pissing on > theory, often with examples how a science student messed up and how they > fixed it (or "fixed it"). > Exactly. Theory is an aid, a tool, It is not *fundamental* to the practice of anything creative - be it making music. painting a picture. building a house, writing software . Metaphysics shows theory in the correct context that nearly all 'educated' people simply do not understand. It is not Truth. It is an ad hoc model that *works*, and that is ultimately ALL that it is. The Truth of a theory is indecidable, Only, under special conditions, it's falsity. You can have (and the Left does) as many invisible undetectable fairies at the bottom of your garden who only have an effect because you *believe they are there* as you like. -- “People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them, and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them. Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of one’s suitability to be taken seriously.” Paul Krugman
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| From | John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 16:04 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <11b2jl1$16jae$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94194 |
On 18/10/2026 15:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 18/10/2026 14:10, John Bokma wrote: >> On 18/10/2026 14:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote: [..] >> Most 5 year olds are not making tunes with a recorder ;-). > > Arent they? I wouldn't call it tunes :=D (Both my children had mandatory lessons at school. The youngest now actually plays music on bass guitar and acoustic guitar). [..] >> I think the same has been said about computer science and writing >> software. At least I have seen plenty of self-taught coders pissing on >> theory, often with examples how a science student messed up and how >> they fixed it (or "fixed it"). >> > Exactly. Theory is an aid, a tool, It is not *fundamental* to the > practice of anything creative - be it making music. painting a picture. > building a house, writing software . Self-taught people who actually can do things are rare. Why we call them often artists ;-). -- Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/ Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 15:33 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <seueqmxlk7.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #94176 |
On 2026-10-18 14:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 18/10/2026 13:19, John Bokma wrote: >> On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> [..] >>> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some >>> fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune. >>> >>> No theory required >> >> A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to >> copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code. >> Fiddle some more and it's a computer program. >> >> No theory required. >> > And most of them are writing websites at 18 > > This thread was originally about those who claim that practice is > impossible without theory, and those who say that in reality, theory > comes much later and is often virtually useless and may indeed be > counterproductive. The theory is used even without formally knowing it. -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 14:23 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <6ad4d64e$0$11445$426a74cc@news.free.fr> |
| In reply to | #94190 |
Le 18-10-2026, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit : > > The theory is used even without formally knowing it. Yes. That's what I said about the Beatles. Another example, Metallica, the singer said often that theory was bad. Until he learned it and later said he was a foul to refuse theory. And without the guitarist, who knew a lot about musical theory, who has improved the songs they wouldn't have been as well known as what they are. To sing under your shower, musical theory is useless. To compose songs meant to be first class worldwide hit, you can't avoid it. -- Si vous avez du temps à perdre : https://scarpet42.gitlab.io
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 20:37 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11b376n$1dsuc$8@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94201 |
On 18/10/2026 15:23, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: > To sing under your shower, musical theory is useless. To compose songs > meant to be first class worldwide hit, you can't avoid it. Unfounded assertion. No proof required -- There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact. Mark Twain
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-19 03:03 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <njlfkaFei39U47@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94225 |
On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 20:37:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 18/10/2026 15:23, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: >> To sing under your shower, musical theory is useless. To compose songs >> meant to be first class worldwide hit, you can't avoid it. > Unfounded assertion. No proof required Proof of point : ABBA
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 20:11 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11b35ll$1dsuc$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94190 |
On 18/10/2026 14:33, Carlos E.R. wrote: > On 2026-10-18 14:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> On 18/10/2026 13:19, John Bokma wrote: >>> On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>> [..] >>>> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some >>>> fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune. >>>> >>>> No theory required >>> >>> A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to >>> copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code. >>> Fiddle some more and it's a computer program. >>> >>> No theory required. >>> >> And most of them are writing websites at 18 >> >> This thread was originally about those who claim that practice is >> impossible without theory, and those who say that in reality, theory >> comes much later and is often virtually useless and may indeed be >> counterproductive. > > The theory is used even without formally knowing it. > > Weaselly bollox If you dont know it you cant use it -- “People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them, and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them. Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of one’s suitability to be taken seriously.” Paul Krugman
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 21:53 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <6nkfqmxatr.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #94218 |
On 2026-10-18 21:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 18/10/2026 14:33, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> On 2026-10-18 14:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>> On 18/10/2026 13:19, John Bokma wrote: >>>> On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>>> [..] >>>>> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in >>>>> some fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune. >>>>> >>>>> No theory required >>>> >>>> A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to >>>> copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code. >>>> Fiddle some more and it's a computer program. >>>> >>>> No theory required. >>>> >>> And most of them are writing websites at 18 >>> >>> This thread was originally about those who claim that practice is >>> impossible without theory, and those who say that in reality, theory >>> comes much later and is often virtually useless and may indeed be >>> counterproductive. >> >> The theory is used even without formally knowing it. >> >> > Weaselly bollox > > If you dont know it you cant use it LOL! -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 13:00 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <6ad4c2f5$0$11429$426a74cc@news.free.fr> |
| In reply to | #94166 |
Le 18-10-2026, John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> a écrit : > On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > [..] >> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some >> fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune. >> >> No theory required > > A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to > copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code. > Fiddle some more and it's a computer program. > > No theory required. Well, I know people who use greatly AI. I saw the some prompts to create really good things: they are not easy. Maybe one day it will suffice to tell an AI to read one mind and create what's expected. But that day is not today. I let The Blind Natural Philosopher (Yes, I know, there are some morons with whom I don't want to argue, so the insult isn't mean to improve arguing with him) quote to show I know the context and the way you mean it. But some people really believe that today AI used by a kid can replace an experienced programmer. -- Si vous avez du temps à perdre : https://scarpet42.gitlab.io
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| From | John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 15:12 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <11b2gjt$15dit$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94180 |
On 18/10/2026 15:00, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: [..] > it. But some people really believe that today AI used by a kid can > replace an experienced programmer. I do believe that. -- Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/ Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 13:26 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <6ad4c90c$0$7096$426a74cc@news.free.fr> |
| In reply to | #94182 |
Le 18-10-2026, John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> a écrit : > On 18/10/2026 15:00, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: > > [..] >> it. But some people really believe that today AI used by a kid can >> replace an experienced programmer. > > I do believe that. Today, it just doesn't work. Well, it looks like it works, but every edge case is broken. I saw someone using AI during a year to create at the same time a product and the report explaining the product. When one looked closely at the report to see what was really delivered, it showed that there were huge mistakes in the report. The guy had no clue about what was delivered. So, if you have a need at home, it can help. But a real production product in a company would only jeopardise its IS. It's really not ready. In a company, you have security issues and a kid without understanding can only destroy the company. -- Si vous avez du temps à perdre : https://scarpet42.gitlab.io
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| From | John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 15:35 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <11b2hvm$15v8v$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94185 |
On 18/10/2026 15:26, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: > Le 18-10-2026, John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> a écrit : >> On 18/10/2026 15:00, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: >> >> [..] >>> it. But some people really believe that today AI used by a kid can >>> replace an experienced programmer. >> >> I do believe that. > > Today, it just doesn't work. Well, it looks like it works, but every > edge case is broken. Have you actually tried something like Github's Copilot CLI? > I saw someone using AI during a year to create at the same time a product > and the report explaining the product. When one looked closely at the > report to see what was really delivered, it showed that there were huge > mistakes in the report. The guy had no clue about what was delivered. A year ago I tried Claude (if I recall correctly) to find a solution to sorting a grid by column in Wx Perl. It came up with a short answer which involved a call to a non-existing Wx function to sort the column. That was a year ago. About a month ago I used Copilot CLI to solve the issue (it came up again). And AI came up with a correct implementation. A lot has changed in less than a year. -- Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/ Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/
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| From | Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 14:04 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <6ad4d1d2$0$28069$426a34cc@news.free.fr> |
| In reply to | #94189 |
Le 18-10-2026, John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> a écrit : > On 18/10/2026 15:26, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: >> Le 18-10-2026, John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> a écrit : >>> On 18/10/2026 15:00, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: >>> >>> [..] >>>> it. But some people really believe that today AI used by a kid can >>>> replace an experienced programmer. >>> >>> I do believe that. >> >> Today, it just doesn't work. Well, it looks like it works, but every >> edge case is broken. > > Have you actually tried something like Github's Copilot CLI? No. I see the results and I know people who are using AI with good results. The fact is that AI that I'm fed with are prompted by people believing they can use AI better than an experience guy (which is what I mean by a kid) and the results are shit. Mostly in areas, like translation or documentation, in which AI can be great. But for the result to be great, the guy using AI must know what he does. >> I saw someone using AI during a year to create at the same time a product >> and the report explaining the product. When one looked closely at the >> report to see what was really delivered, it showed that there were huge >> mistakes in the report. The guy had no clue about what was delivered. > > A year ago I tried Claude (if I recall correctly) to find a solution to > sorting a grid by column in Wx Perl. It came up with a short answer > which involved a call to a non-existing Wx function to sort the column. > > That was a year ago. > > About a month ago I used Copilot CLI to solve the issue (it came up > again). And AI came up with a correct implementation. There's a huge difference between changing a program and creating a long program from scratch. And there is a huge difference between creating a two lines prompt to create a very long program and creating a very long program with a lot of feed back to the prompt. Because the kid can't know how to get the good feed back. By a kid, I don't mean an 18 years old who spent all his spare time learning about CS and AI who could have a knowledge close to an experienced programmer. I mean a normal kid. At the University, I knew one or two students who had more knowledge than some teachers. They are not what I'm calling a kid. So when you ask me if I tried it, it doesn't matter because if I'm not a programmer, I worked with enough programmers to know what to look for and how to direct AI. Which a kid couldn't do. Not so long ago a medic asked me if I wasn't afraid of AI for my job. But the fact is that my job was already challenged since decades by Indians guy who are cheaper. So don't ask me to try it to see if it could replace a kid because I'm not an un-experienced kid. At work I don't program. At home, when I do some scripts, it's for fun, so using AI would only remove the fun. So, no, I don't use AI. That doesn't mean I don't know what AI is and that doesn't mean I don't know what AI can do. And I have worked with kids which need to be directed to understand the difference between the theoretical concepts they learned at school and the real life programs with everything coming with them. > A lot has changed in less than a year. Yes, I know that and I'm not challenging that. -- Si vous avez du temps à perdre : https://scarpet42.gitlab.io
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| From | John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 16:24 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <11b2kqr$17273$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94195 |
On 18/10/2026 16:04, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: > Le 18-10-2026, John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> a écrit : [..] >> Have you actually tried something like Github's Copilot CLI? > > No. I see the results and I know people who are using AI with good > results. The fact is that AI that I'm fed with are prompted by people > believing they can use AI better than an experience guy (which is what I > mean by a kid) and the results are shit. Mostly in areas, like > translation or documentation, in which AI can be great. But for the > result to be great, the guy using AI must know what he does. In my experience this is less and less the case. AI has improved with giant steps in less than a year. [..] >> About a month ago I used Copilot CLI to solve the issue (it came up >> again). And AI came up with a correct implementation. > > There's a huge difference between changing a program and creating a long > program from scratch. As long as you guide the AI it will keep coming up with code that works. If it doesn't work ask it to fix it. >. And there is a huge difference between creating a > two lines prompt to create a very long program and creating a very long > program with a lot of feed back to the prompt. Because the kid can't > know how to get the good feed back. People are writing instructions for AI that one can (re)use. Such instructions make it possible to keep the human prompts short as they become part of a prompt. One can even instruct AI to write these instructions (/init). I often start my prompt with "As a professional Perl programmer" or "As a professional Python programmer". ;-) > By a kid, I don't mean an 18 years old who spent all his spare time > learning about CS and AI who could have a knowledge close to an > experienced programmer. Me, neither. > So don't ask me to try it to see if it could replace a kid because I'm > not an un-experienced kid. At work I don't program. At home, when I do > some scripts, it's for fun, From an earlier post I came to understand that you struggle with Python. > so using AI would only remove the fun. So, In my experience it doesn't. It's like having a co-worker who doesn't get tired with helping out. Or doesn't act condescending. Code reviews are fun, and explanations are excellent. > no, I don't use AI. That doesn't mean I don't know what AI is and that > doesn't mean I don't know what AI can do. I think it does. Like I said, it has changed, a lot, in just a year. And next month it will be better. -- Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/ Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 14:50 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11b2iqn$11pis$38@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94180 |
On 18/10/2026 14:00, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: > Le 18-10-2026, John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> a écrit : >> On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> [..] >>> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some >>> fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune. >>> >>> No theory required >> >> A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to >> copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code. >> Fiddle some more and it's a computer program. >> >> No theory required. > > Well, I know people who use greatly AI. I saw the some prompts to create > really good things: they are not easy. Maybe one day it will suffice to > tell an AI to read one mind and create what's expected. But that day is > not today. > > I let The Blind Natural Philosopher (Yes, I know, there are some morons > with whom I don't want to argue, so the insult isn't mean to improve > arguing with him) quote to show I know the context and the way you mean > it. But some people really believe that today AI used by a kid can > replace an experienced programmer. > There is a a difference between an experienced programmer and a good one. AI is likely better than a CS graduate who thinks he has 'special knowledge' and can insult intelligence that gains a view from experience rather than out of a book -- “People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them, and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them. Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of one’s suitability to be taken seriously.” Paul Krugman
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 20:19 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <njkntoFei39U37@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94165 |
On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 13:13:50 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some > fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune. Better he should pick up a tin whistle or Irish flute. Diatonic instruments have an advantage plus the fingering is a lot easier.
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| From | Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 09:39 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <6ad493c1$0$10324$426a74cc@news.free.fr> |
| In reply to | #94077 |
Le 17-10-2026, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit : > On 2026-10-17 10:52, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: >> >> If you take the Beatles, one of the biggest band known for two things: >> first their songs were loved by a lot of people and second they were >> unable to read a partition. >> >> And that's were his confusion resides. They knew very well what they >> were doing. Some of the interviews they gave proved that if they were >> unable to put theoretical names on what they did, they were well aware >> of the effects had on the ears. So, even if they learned by themselves, >> they knew some musical theory: it wasn't useless because without it they >> wouldn't have stand out. > > I know music theoreticists studied the Beatles and could relate them to > many previous musicians the world over. The maths applied to them. The > theory matched what they did. I didn't knew it, but I'm not surprised. One can't become one of the most famous band in the world with random creation. -- Si vous avez du temps à perdre : https://scarpet42.gitlab.io
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