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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #93752 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Martin Davies-Roundhill <enduphere.xyz@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-10-15 14:52 +0000 |
| Last post | 2026-10-24 10:31 +0100 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 92 — 14 participants |
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Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? Martin Davies-Roundhill <enduphere.xyz@gmail.com> - 2026-10-15 14:52 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-15 07:57 -0700
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-15 19:33 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-15 19:40 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-15 17:01 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? Beej Jorgensen <beej@beej.us> - 2026-10-15 17:29 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-15 19:27 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-15 18:47 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-15 19:40 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-15 23:35 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 01:41 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 10:47 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 18:40 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 23:17 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 02:53 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 10:46 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 07:58 -0700
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 15:59 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-16 18:46 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 18:32 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-16 19:41 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 18:26 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-16 22:40 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 23:11 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:06 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:46 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-17 12:24 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:31 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-16 18:46 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 18:35 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-16 19:43 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 18:34 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-16 22:47 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 02:40 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-17 12:33 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 12:04 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-17 13:40 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 11:56 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-17 13:59 +0200
Programming Books (was Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control?) John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-17 15:01 +0200
Re: Programming Books (was Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control?) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 18:26 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 10:45 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-16 13:56 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:38 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:19 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 17:09 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 18:21 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-10-23 19:34 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-23 20:28 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-23 22:44 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-24 03:18 -0400
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-24 13:44 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-24 13:09 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-24 14:45 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-24 14:02 +0100
[OT] Gas inspections "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-24 21:23 +0200
Re: [OT] Gas inspections c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-26 01:16 -0400
Re: [OT] Gas inspections "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-26 11:33 +0100
Re: [OT] Gas inspections The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-26 11:08 +0000
Re: [OT] Gas inspections "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-26 13:28 +0100
Re: [OT] Gas inspections The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-26 13:07 +0000
Re: [OT] Gas inspections c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-26 09:08 -0400
Re: [OT] Gas inspections The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-26 13:59 +0000
Re: [OT] Gas inspections "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-26 22:28 +0100
Re: [OT] Gas inspections The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-26 21:39 +0000
Re: [OT] Gas inspections "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-26 23:03 +0100
Re: [OT] Gas inspections c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-27 00:44 -0400
Re: [OT] Gas inspections c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-26 09:05 -0400
Re: [OT] Gas inspections "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-26 22:47 +0100
Re: [OT] Gas inspections Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-10-27 06:34 -0700
Re: [OT] Gas inspections The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-27 14:37 +0000
Re: [OT] Gas inspections rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-27 18:38 +0000
Re: [OT] Gas inspections "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-28 13:05 +0100
Re: [OT] Gas inspections c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-28 10:07 -0400
Re: [OT] Gas inspections "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-28 18:06 +0100
Re: [OT] Gas inspections The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-28 17:57 +0000
Re: [OT] Gas inspections c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-28 22:21 -0400
Re: [OT] Gas inspections Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-10-29 02:51 +0000
Re: [OT] Gas inspections "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-29 21:48 +0100
Re: [OT] Gas inspections "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-29 21:45 +0100
Re: [OT] Gas inspections Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-10-27 06:19 -0700
Re: [OT] Gas inspections c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-27 10:11 -0400
Re: [OT] Gas inspections Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-10-28 06:32 -0700
Re: [OT] Gas inspections c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-28 10:32 -0400
Re: [OT] Gas inspections "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-28 18:10 +0100
Re: [OT] Gas inspections c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-28 22:32 -0400
Re: [OT] Gas inspections "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-29 21:49 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-10-24 11:52 -0700
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-24 10:35 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-10-24 11:40 -0700
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-24 10:31 +0100
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-26 13:28 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Gas inspections |
| Message-ID | <8kt3rmxk6a.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #94695 |
On 2026-10-26 12:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 26/10/2026 10:33, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>> They CAN produce a lot of CO ... so buy a detector !!! >> >> No, they can't. Certified. > > The absolute faith in a piece of paper is...deeply touching. > > It is science and engineering. -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-26 13:07 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Gas inspections |
| Message-ID | <11bnja6$jiqo$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94698 |
On 26/10/2026 12:28, Carlos E.R. wrote: > On 2026-10-26 12:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> On 26/10/2026 10:33, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>>> They CAN produce a lot of CO ... so buy a detector !!! >>> >>> No, they can't. Certified. >> >> The absolute faith in a piece of paper is...deeply touching. >> >> > > It is science and engineering. > No. Its paper -- “It is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong.” Thomas Sowell
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-26 09:08 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Gas inspections |
| Message-ID | <OtidnXX04uV5zUL3nZ2dnZfqnPidnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #94698 |
On 10/26/26 08:28, Carlos E.R. wrote: > On 2026-10-26 12:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> On 26/10/2026 10:33, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>>> They CAN produce a lot of CO ... so buy a detector !!! >>> >>> No, they can't. Certified. >> >> The absolute faith in a piece of paper is...deeply touching. >> >> > > It is science and engineering. Ummm ... in THEORY :-) Real world, real 'inspectors, real tech ... beware ! At best you can hedge your bets. Then a SpaceX upper stage will fall on your house ........
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-26 13:59 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Gas inspections |
| Message-ID | <11bnmb5$kotf$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94701 |
On 26/10/2026 13:08, c186282 wrote: > On 10/26/26 08:28, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> On 2026-10-26 12:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>> On 26/10/2026 10:33, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>>>> They CAN produce a lot of CO ... so buy a detector !!! >>>> >>>> No, they can't. Certified. >>> >>> The absolute faith in a piece of paper is...deeply touching. >>> >>> >> >> It is science and engineering. > > Ummm ... in THEORY :-) > I think Carlos is a Catholic. He Believes in Authority. > Real world, real 'inspectors, real tech ... > beware ! > > At best you can hedge your bets. > > Then a SpaceX upper stage will fall > on your house ........ > -- "A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight and understanding". Marshall McLuhan
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-26 22:28 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Gas inspections |
| Message-ID | <48t4rmxj6o.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #94702 |
On 2026-10-26 14:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 26/10/2026 13:08, c186282 wrote: >> On 10/26/26 08:28, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>> On 2026-10-26 12:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>>> On 26/10/2026 10:33, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>>>>> They CAN produce a lot of CO ... so buy a detector !!! >>>>> >>>>> No, they can't. Certified. >>>> >>>> The absolute faith in a piece of paper is...deeply touching. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> It is science and engineering. >> >> Ummm ... in THEORY :-) >> > I think Carlos is a Catholic. He Believes in Authority. Mmm. There is something in that. > > > >> Real world, real 'inspectors, real tech ... >> beware ! Gas inspectors risk lives if they fail to do their job properly. And prison. >> >> At best you can hedge your bets. >> >> Then a SpaceX upper stage will fall >> on your house ........ >> > -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-26 21:39 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Gas inspections |
| Message-ID | <11boha2$v0re$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94705 |
On 26/10/2026 21:28, Carlos E.R. wrote: > On 2026-10-26 14:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> On 26/10/2026 13:08, c186282 wrote: >>> On 10/26/26 08:28, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>>> On 2026-10-26 12:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>>>> On 26/10/2026 10:33, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>>>>>> They CAN produce a lot of CO ... so buy a detector !!! >>>>>> >>>>>> No, they can't. Certified. >>>>> >>>>> The absolute faith in a piece of paper is...deeply touching. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> It is science and engineering. >>> >>> Ummm ... in THEORY :-) >>> >> I think Carlos is a Catholic. He Believes in Authority. > > Mmm. There is something in that. > > >> >> >> >>> Real world, real 'inspectors, real tech ... >>> beware ! > > Gas inspectors risk lives if they fail to do their job properly. And > prison. > > Many people inspect things that are OK, and subsequently fail. Obstructed flues may cause CO to escape inside a house. -- Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as foolish, and by the rulers as useful. (Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-26 23:03 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Gas inspections |
| Message-ID | <nav4rmxm5u.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #94706 |
On 2026-10-26 22:39, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 26/10/2026 21:28, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> On 2026-10-26 14:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>> On 26/10/2026 13:08, c186282 wrote: >>>> On 10/26/26 08:28, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>>>> On 2026-10-26 12:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>>>>> On 26/10/2026 10:33, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>>>>>>> They CAN produce a lot of CO ... so buy a detector !!! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No, they can't. Certified. >>>>>> >>>>>> The absolute faith in a piece of paper is...deeply touching. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It is science and engineering. >>>> >>>> Ummm ... in THEORY :-) >>>> >>> I think Carlos is a Catholic. He Believes in Authority. >> >> Mmm. There is something in that. >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Real world, real 'inspectors, real tech ... >>>> beware ! >> >> Gas inspectors risk lives if they fail to do their job properly. And >> prison. >> >> > Many people inspect things that are OK, and subsequently fail. > > Obstructed flues may cause CO to escape inside a house. True, but the CO2 sensor in the appliance should detect that obstruction and switch it off. Gas water heaters here are sealed, though. -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-27 00:44 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Gas inspections |
| Message-ID | <1yWdneFw4_uPsX33nZ2dnZfqnPudnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #94705 |
On 10/26/26 17:28, Carlos E.R. wrote: > On 2026-10-26 14:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> On 26/10/2026 13:08, c186282 wrote: >>> On 10/26/26 08:28, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>>> On 2026-10-26 12:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>>>> On 26/10/2026 10:33, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>>>>>> They CAN produce a lot of CO ... so buy a detector !!! >>>>>> >>>>>> No, they can't. Certified. >>>>> >>>>> The absolute faith in a piece of paper is...deeply touching. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> It is science and engineering. >>> >>> Ummm ... in THEORY :-) >>> >> I think Carlos is a Catholic. He Believes in Authority. > > Mmm. There is something in that. > > >> >> >> >>> Real world, real 'inspectors, real tech ... >>> beware ! > > Gas inspectors risk lives if they fail to do their job properly. And > prison. But they'll just say everything was fine when THEY were there - and likely any contrary evidence will be burned. >>> At best you can hedge your bets. >>> >>> Then a SpaceX upper stage will fall >>> on your house ........ >>> >>
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-26 09:05 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Gas inspections |
| Message-ID | <fm6dnQAhLuu9zUL3nZ2dnZfqnPudnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #94694 |
On 10/26/26 06:33, Carlos E.R. wrote: > On 2026-10-26 06:16, c186282 wrote: >> On 10/24/26 15:23, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>> On 2026-10-24 15:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>>> On 24/10/2026 13:45, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>>>> On 2026-10-24 14:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>>>>> On 24/10/2026 12:44, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>>>>>>> Gas cooking ... WILL admit it's "superior" for the >>>>>>>> purpose. However that's hardly relevant when your >>>>>>>> entire house explodes suddenly or everyone dies >>>>>>>> from suffocation or monoxide. WON'T have gas ! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I guess that your mandatory periodical gas inspection services >>>>>>> are not up to par. >:-) >>>>>> >>>>>> Let alone his smoke alarms or CO detectors... >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Well, those are not mandatory in Spain, not even recommended. >>>>> >>>> Sloppy EU standards again. Sigh. >>>> Couldn't build or insure my house without smoke alarms. >>>> >>>> Fire prevention gave me a CO alarm >>> >>> Insurance here don't ask for any of those. >> >> >> But, if you use gas, DO at least install a CO detector ! > > It is not even recommended here. SHOULD be. >> A gas LEAK detector is also a VERY good idea. No BOOMS. > > We live in flats. Doesn't help me much if I put one, and my neighbour > doesn't, and HE has a leak. Cluster-housing ... yea ... not as much you can do. But you can do YOUR bit ... might help some. Don't do it and there's NO help. >> Every few weeks, USA news, videos of entire houses >> EXPLODING due to gas leaks. Look like a Russian drone >> hit. USA infrastructure is generally newer than UK/EU >> infrastructure - so BEWARE. > > Here, it happens rarely. Interesting. Wonder why ? Better infrastructure ? Starting in the early 1960s the idea of "quality construction" kinda went out the window in the USA. Slap 'em up FAST and CHEAP ! An envelope of cash would placate the 'inspectors' and pols. That infamous condo collapse in Miami a few years ago, the surviving workers DID tell "How It Was Done" Hmmm ... long back my parents considered buying a lot in a little neighborhood - JUST slightly downhill of the long-time UNLINED all-purpose trash dump. Everybody drank/cooked/bathed with PUMP WATER back then. Lucky they found an alt property. You don't wanna KNOW what shit I found in that dump - evil chems by the literal barrel-fulls. We kids would strap rifles to our bikes and ride there to shoot rats and shit - the cops would just smile and wave ... really. That neighborhood is still there - all zero-income Billy-Bobs and brain-dead gang-bangers. DID find some barrels of an acetone/toluene solvent there. Ran my junk Corvair on it. Worked ! >> "Pilot lights" in stoves and such ... CAN be a problem. >> >> Gas cooking/heating/etc DOES have its good place, but >> DO keep the hazards in mind ! >> >> Some areas ... no WAY to change from gas to electric >> with any sanity because too much of the electric grid >> would have to be seriously upgraded. The UK had this >> nutty plan to electrify, then somebody actually did >> the numbers - unaffordable by a wide margin. >> >> Somewhere I have a little electric thing intended >> to produce a little spark to keep pilot lights lit. >> However MOST stoves/heaters ... it'd have to be a >> major retrofit. Not sure ANY corps would do it now >> for insurance/liability reasons. > > In this house, I have a butane flash water heater. It has two D size 1.5 > volt batteries, and with those it lights up the gas when I open a tap. Good tech ... assuming you can tell if it stops working. LITTLE butane for heating/etc in the USA, almost all 'natural gas' (methane) or propane. Only 'campers', 'caravans' in the UK, might use butane cylinders but even most of those use propane now. > The inspector came this year, tested the tubings, inserted some kind of > probe into the exhaust to measure the type of gases, and pronounced my > system safe for another 4 years. Good. At least somebody checked. 'Gas' can be OK, but you DO have to keep on top of it. >>> If you buy a state of the art butane space heater (they work with >>> bottles of butane) they don't have any CO sensor. Just a CO2 sensor. >>> They don't generate CO. And they don't get inspected, either. >> >> They CAN produce a lot of CO ... so buy a detector !!! > > No, they can't. Certified. Umm ... why NOT ??? CO detection isn't anything new. The sensors are already old tech and SHOULD be solid. Besides, even if not REQUIRED, buy a sensor for YOUR safety. If it beeps, CHECK ! >> Butane is a little less flammable than methane or propane >> but you STILL need leak detectors. >> >>>>> I do remember cases of CO poisoning, but it was in a second >>>>> residence, so perhaps not inspected because there was nobody there. >>>>> >>>>> More common are those poisoned in houses that were using the >>>>> traditional wood coal stoves (usually placed under a table). No >>>>> inspection in those, obviously. >>>>> >>>> Why not? >>> >>> Because it is not gas :-D >>> >>> It is just a metal container, like a big bowl, in which you pour a >>> bunch of coals and set them on fire. There is no exhaust. Tradition! >>> >>> >>>> >>>>> Gas explosions do happen, but not "many". >> >> Umm ... every few weeks ... USA news shows >> yet another entire house EXPLODING due to >> a gas leak. >> >> I think that adds-up to "many". >> >> 'Gas' CAN be perfectly good - but it's a tech >> that HAS to be carefully monitored. >> > > I think it happened this summer once or twice. USA ... seems the weekly sensational video now that everyone has security cams. BOOM !!! Mrs Jabberwockies house lifts ten feet off the ground and blasts shit over half the block. >> Electric can overheat/burn too ... not a panacea >> but LESS hazardous IF you can get enough electric >> service into an area. Worst case might BURN your >> home, but not DETONATE your home. > > Absolutely. You might escape a developing fire - but not an instant BOOM. The guy who built my house around 1950 was a contractor - and lived there for a few years. All the electric in the attic is SOLDERED connections on that old mil/industrial grade tri-layer ROMEX with caps and tape over THOSE joins. Dad was an electrician and added on properly too, all in metal conduit. No gas ever. Don't want it. UK ... the power grid wasn't built to supply all energy needs. Somebody actually worked the numbers just before the big plan to force all onto electric - program DROPPED suddenly. It'd take more money than the UK has to upgrade the power grid now. USA, everything built for 200 amp service since WW2. Some in more rural areas still use gas tanks, mostly because the power grid sometimes goes down from winter storms and they can at least stay warm with gas. I'm kinda south-ish and near the coast so it doesn't get THAT cold. But Nebraska - DO have a gas tank somewhere, even if it just runs a heater in the barn. Move in with Bessie and Porky for a week ... Have a butane mini-cooker though, runs on cans, so I can still cook some things in case of a long outage. More and more people buy large automatic generator sets now, for big-$$$, but forget that in case of a big storm nobody can get there to fill the tank. Oh well, no panaceas ... just 'best compromise'. Guess I could move next door to a nuke plant, but then GUESS what'd happen :-)
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-26 22:47 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Gas inspections |
| Message-ID | <2du4rmx92t.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #94699 |
On 2026-10-26 14:05, c186282 wrote: > On 10/26/26 06:33, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> On 2026-10-26 06:16, c186282 wrote: >>> On 10/24/26 15:23, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>>> On 2026-10-24 15:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>>>> On 24/10/2026 13:45, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>>>>> On 2026-10-24 14:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>>>>>> On 24/10/2026 12:44, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>>>>>>>> Gas cooking ... WILL admit it's "superior" for the >>>>>>>>> purpose. However that's hardly relevant when your >>>>>>>>> entire house explodes suddenly or everyone dies >>>>>>>>> from suffocation or monoxide. WON'T have gas ! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I guess that your mandatory periodical gas inspection services >>>>>>>> are not up to par. >:-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Let alone his smoke alarms or CO detectors... >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Well, those are not mandatory in Spain, not even recommended. >>>>>> >>>>> Sloppy EU standards again. Sigh. >>>>> Couldn't build or insure my house without smoke alarms. >>>>> >>>>> Fire prevention gave me a CO alarm >>>> >>>> Insurance here don't ask for any of those. >>> >>> >>> But, if you use gas, DO at least install a CO detector ! >> >> It is not even recommended here. > > SHOULD be. > >>> A gas LEAK detector is also a VERY good idea. No BOOMS. >> >> We live in flats. Doesn't help me much if I put one, and my neighbour >> doesn't, and HE has a leak. > > Cluster-housing ... yea ... not as much you > can do. > > But you can do YOUR bit ... might help some. > Don't do it and there's NO help. > >>> Every few weeks, USA news, videos of entire houses >>> EXPLODING due to gas leaks. Look like a Russian drone >>> hit. USA infrastructure is generally newer than UK/EU >>> infrastructure - so BEWARE. >> >> Here, it happens rarely. > > Interesting. Wonder why ? Better infrastructure ? > > Starting in the early 1960s the idea of "quality > construction" kinda went out the window in the USA. > Slap 'em up FAST and CHEAP ! An envelope of cash > would placate the 'inspectors' and pols. > > That infamous condo collapse in Miami a few years > ago, the surviving workers DID tell "How It Was Done" > > Hmmm ... long back my parents considered buying a lot > in a little neighborhood - JUST slightly downhill of > the long-time UNLINED all-purpose trash dump. Everybody > drank/cooked/bathed with PUMP WATER back then. Lucky > they found an alt property. You don't wanna KNOW what > shit I found in that dump - evil chems by the literal > barrel-fulls. We kids would strap rifles to our bikes > and ride there to shoot rats and shit - the cops would > just smile and wave ... really. > > That neighborhood is still there - all zero-income > Billy-Bobs and brain-dead gang-bangers. > > DID find some barrels of an acetone/toluene solvent > there. Ran my junk Corvair on it. Worked ! > >>> "Pilot lights" in stoves and such ... CAN be a problem. >>> >>> Gas cooking/heating/etc DOES have its good place, but >>> DO keep the hazards in mind ! >>> >>> Some areas ... no WAY to change from gas to electric >>> with any sanity because too much of the electric grid >>> would have to be seriously upgraded. The UK had this >>> nutty plan to electrify, then somebody actually did >>> the numbers - unaffordable by a wide margin. >>> >>> Somewhere I have a little electric thing intended >>> to produce a little spark to keep pilot lights lit. >>> However MOST stoves/heaters ... it'd have to be a >>> major retrofit. Not sure ANY corps would do it now >>> for insurance/liability reasons. >> >> In this house, I have a butane flash water heater. It has two D size >> 1.5 volt batteries, and with those it lights up the gas when I open a >> tap. > > Good tech ... assuming you can tell if it stops working. Define "stops working". :-) The thing has some kind of very low power cpu or controller, and signals problems by flashing a single red led in various ways. Typical is no gas pressure, or battery low. It will not let the gas valve open with no fire, this situation is detected and it stops. It is actually quite finicky compared to the previous dumb unit I had. > > LITTLE butane for heating/etc in the USA, almost all > 'natural gas' (methane) or propane. Only 'campers', > 'caravans' in the UK, might use butane cylinders but > even most of those use propane now. Bottled butane is the old method, and the cheapest. If you use the heavy orange bottles of a certain regulated size, the price is also regulated. So low income families use those. Years later, depending on the city, we got ducted gas from Algeria. It is more expensive, simply because there is a meter and a contract. You pay even in summer. > >> The inspector came this year, tested the tubings, inserted some kind >> of probe into the exhaust to measure the type of gases, and pronounced >> my system safe for another 4 years. > > Good. At least somebody checked. 'Gas' can be OK, but > you DO have to keep on top of it. > >>>> If you buy a state of the art butane space heater (they work with >>>> bottles of butane) they don't have any CO sensor. Just a CO2 sensor. >>>> They don't generate CO. And they don't get inspected, either. >>> >>> They CAN produce a lot of CO ... so buy a detector !!! >> >> No, they can't. Certified. > > Umm ... why NOT ??? > > CO detection isn't anything new. The sensors > are already old tech and SHOULD be solid. > > Besides, even if not REQUIRED, buy a sensor > for YOUR safety. If it beeps, CHECK ! Before getting a dangerous CO level, there would be CO2 buildup, and that would be detected by the stove, with an automatic switch off. And the flame would be visibly yellow. I also enforce ventilation with a fan on the window. I did look at CO sensors, though, they were not cheap. My actual danger, is leaving something on the fire and forgetting about it. Has happened more than once. So, I always use a timer. > >>> Butane is a little less flammable than methane or propane >>> but you STILL need leak detectors. >>> >>>>>> I do remember cases of CO poisoning, but it was in a second >>>>>> residence, so perhaps not inspected because there was nobody there. >>>>>> >>>>>> More common are those poisoned in houses that were using the >>>>>> traditional wood coal stoves (usually placed under a table). No >>>>>> inspection in those, obviously. >>>>>> >>>>> Why not? >>>> >>>> Because it is not gas :-D >>>> >>>> It is just a metal container, like a big bowl, in which you pour a >>>> bunch of coals and set them on fire. There is no exhaust. Tradition! >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Gas explosions do happen, but not "many". >>> >>> Umm ... every few weeks ... USA news shows >>> yet another entire house EXPLODING due to >>> a gas leak. >>> >>> I think that adds-up to "many". >>> >>> 'Gas' CAN be perfectly good - but it's a tech >>> that HAS to be carefully monitored. >>> >> >> I think it happened this summer once or twice. > > USA ... seems the weekly sensational video now > that everyone has security cams. BOOM !!! Mrs > Jabberwockies house lifts ten feet off the > ground and blasts shit over half the block. > >>> Electric can overheat/burn too ... not a panacea >>> but LESS hazardous IF you can get enough electric >>> service into an area. Worst case might BURN your >>> home, but not DETONATE your home. >> >> Absolutely. > > You might escape a developing fire - but not > an instant BOOM. > > The guy who built my house around 1950 was a > contractor - and lived there for a few years. > All the electric in the attic is SOLDERED > connections on that old mil/industrial grade > tri-layer ROMEX with caps and tape over THOSE > joins. Dad was an electrician and added on > properly too, all in metal conduit. No gas > ever. Don't want it. > > UK ... the power grid wasn't built to supply > all energy needs. Somebody actually worked the > numbers just before the big plan to force all > onto electric - program DROPPED suddenly. It'd > take more money than the UK has to upgrade the > power grid now. USA, everything built for 200 > amp service since WW2. > > Some in more rural areas still use gas tanks, > mostly because the power grid sometimes goes > down from winter storms and they can at least > stay warm with gas. I'm kinda south-ish and > near the coast so it doesn't get THAT cold. > But Nebraska - DO have a gas tank somewhere, > even if it just runs a heater in the barn. > Move in with Bessie and Porky for a week ... > > Have a butane mini-cooker though, runs on > cans, so I can still cook some things in > case of a long outage. More and more people > buy large automatic generator sets now, for > big-$$$, but forget that in case of a big > storm nobody can get there to fill the tank. I have just 10A of electricity (actually trips on 15A), so my cooking range has two induction rings and two butane rings. I am careful not to use two big electrical appliances at the same time. I intend to move to a flat within a year, when they end building it and everything is papered and stamped over. All electric. Might electrify my car too. My current house is too old, needs a good renovation which I'm not keen on doing. Bedrooms are upstairs, and it is not guaranteed that I will be able to climb the stairs as I grow older. So, move. > > Oh well, no panaceas ... just 'best compromise'. > Guess I could move next door to a nuke plant, > but then GUESS what'd happen :-) > -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-27 06:34 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Gas inspections |
| Message-ID | <11bq99n$1i0j1$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94708 |
On 10/26/2026 14:47, Carlos E.R. wrote: >[...] > Bottled butane is the old method, and the cheapest. If you use the heavy > orange bottles of a certain regulated size, the price is also regulated. > So low income families use those. > > Years later, depending on the city, we got ducted gas from Algeria. It > is more expensive, simply because there is a meter and a contract. You > pay even in summer. I guess butane works for household use in Spain. It will not work in more Northern climates where the temperature can approach the freezing point, because the boiling point of butane is at -0.4 C. So if it is cold, you can't light the heater! For this reason, we here in California only ever see butane in pocket cigarette lighters and in the little French "Bleuet Camping Gaz" cans. I discovered this problem when I tried to make coffee on a Thanksgiving trip to the Grand Canyon. Had to take the blue can into the sleeping bag with me to warm it up before I could light the stove. > I have just 10A of electricity (actually trips on 15A), so my cooking > range has two induction rings and two butane rings. I am careful not to > use two big electrical appliances at the same time. Whoa ... 10A x 220V for the whole house? Here we have 15A x 110V for each outlet! > I intend to move to a flat within a year, when they end building it and > everything is papered and stamped over. All electric. Might electrify my > car too. > > My current house is too old, needs a good renovation which I'm not keen > on doing. Bedrooms are upstairs, and it is not guaranteed that I will be > able to climb the stairs as I grow older. So, move. Yes, those stairs are guaranteed to become a problem at some point. So in the apartment building, you also want to be on the ground floor! You will probably have to upgrade the electric before you can sell the old house. -- Lars Poulsen - an old geek in Santa Barbara, California
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-27 14:37 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Gas inspections |
| Message-ID | <11bqcur$1jcfk$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94719 |
On 27/10/2026 13:34, Lars Poulsen wrote: > Whoa ... 10A x 220V for the whole house? Here we have 15A x 110V for > each outlet! That's Spain. I got 100A 240V for the whole house Of course each outlet is rated at 220V/13A but nothing really uses that much -- "In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is true: it is true because it is powerful." Lucas Bergkamp
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-27 18:38 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Gas inspections |
| Message-ID | <nkc9e1Fep5lU5@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94719 |
On Tue, 27 Oct 2026 06:34:45 -0700, Lars Poulsen wrote: > For this reason, we here in California only ever see butane in pocket > cigarette lighters and in the little French "Bleuet Camping Gaz" cans. In the winter months I carry a traditional Zippo lighter to deal with frozen locks or other potential problems. Even the outer pocket of a winter coat isn't always sufficient to keep a BIC functioning. Back in my more ambitious hiking days I carried a Svea 123 stove. As my ambition declined I switched to a lightweight Trangia alcohol stove. Sometimes I carry a solid fuel Esbit.
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-28 13:05 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Gas inspections |
| Message-ID | <4159rmxbh1.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #94719 |
On 2026-10-27 14:34, Lars Poulsen wrote: > On 10/26/2026 14:47, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> [...] >> Bottled butane is the old method, and the cheapest. If you use the >> heavy orange bottles of a certain regulated size, the price is also >> regulated. So low income families use those. >> >> Years later, depending on the city, we got ducted gas from Algeria. It >> is more expensive, simply because there is a meter and a contract. You >> pay even in summer. > > I guess butane works for household use in Spain. It will not work in > more Northern climates where the temperature can approach the freezing > point, because the boiling point of butane is at -0.4 C. So if it is > cold, you can't light the heater! Some places use propane instead. I know a friend in Madrid (where it does freeze in winter) who has old butane heating, with an array of maybe 8 or more butane bottles in parallel, for heating. Something similar to this, but bigger and better installed: https://share.google/kitJfMIQ6XBpgcdmD or this (commercial system): https://share.google/rc9Xv5NBuCizv7k2S > > For this reason, we here in California only ever see butane in pocket > cigarette lighters and in the little French "Bleuet Camping Gaz" cans. > > I discovered this problem when I tried to make coffee on a Thanksgiving > trip to the Grand Canyon. Had to take the blue can into the sleeping bag > with me to warm it up before I could light the stove. Heh :-) > >> I have just 10A of electricity (actually trips on 15A), so my cooking >> range has two induction rings and two butane rings. I am careful not >> to use two big electrical appliances at the same time. > > Whoa ... 10A x 220V for the whole house? Here we have 15A x 110V for > each outlet! 230 volts. Old contract, typical is 20A. >> I intend to move to a flat within a year, when they end building it >> and everything is papered and stamped over. All electric. Might >> electrify my car too. >> >> My current house is too old, needs a good renovation which I'm not >> keen on doing. Bedrooms are upstairs, and it is not guaranteed that I >> will be able to climb the stairs as I grow older. So, move. > > Yes, those stairs are guaranteed to become a problem at some point. > So in the apartment building, you also want to be on the ground floor! No, there are lifts. Spain is one of the countries with more elevators per capita, so my flat is on the 2nd level (3rd for USA). :-) > > You will probably have to upgrade the electric before you can sell the > old house. Nope, we can leave all the upgrading to the next owner. He has a lot to do, like change the flooring, change the water pipes (in and out), change the electricity ducting, maybe change some of the structure beams, certainly repair cracks, do something about humidity, maybe redo the roof... The house is sold as is, very possibly to tear it down completely - except that the front is "protected" and has to be kept intact, or reconstructed with the same appearance. -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-28 10:07 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Gas inspections |
| Message-ID | <uHGdnfkDuaVUnH_3nZ2dnZfqn_adnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #94736 |
On 10/28/26 08:05, Carlos E.R. wrote: > On 2026-10-27 14:34, Lars Poulsen wrote: >> On 10/26/2026 14:47, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>> [...] >>> Bottled butane is the old method, and the cheapest. If you use the >>> heavy orange bottles of a certain regulated size, the price is also >>> regulated. So low income families use those. >>> >>> Years later, depending on the city, we got ducted gas from Algeria. >>> It is more expensive, simply because there is a meter and a contract. >>> You pay even in summer. >> >> I guess butane works for household use in Spain. It will not work in >> more Northern climates where the temperature can approach the freezing >> point, because the boiling point of butane is at -0.4 C. So if it is >> cold, you can't light the heater! Butane works just fine - so long as it doesn't get TOO cold. Drop much below zeroC and it's likely to just remain liquid in the bottle. Propane IS better in this respect. Note butane and propane don't use the same air/gas ratios for best burning ... really shouldn't try to run old butane appliances on propane or methane, or the other way around. > Some places use propane instead. > > I know a friend in Madrid (where it does freeze in winter) who has old > butane heating, with an array of maybe 8 or more butane bottles in > parallel, for heating. > > > Something similar to this, but bigger and better installed: > > https://share.google/kitJfMIQ6XBpgcdmD > > or this (commercial system): > > https://share.google/rc9Xv5NBuCizv7k2S > > >> >> For this reason, we here in California only ever see butane in pocket >> cigarette lighters and in the little French "Bleuet Camping Gaz" cans. >> >> I discovered this problem when I tried to make coffee on a >> Thanksgiving trip to the Grand Canyon. Had to take the blue can into >> the sleeping bag with me to warm it up before I could light the stove. > > Heh :-) It's true. Butane is only for TINY stuff in the USA. Propane or NG are the standards. One advantage of butane though, a strength in its weakness, is that the pressure in the container is lower than with propane/NG. You can buy relatively thin/light cans of butane. >>> I have just 10A of electricity (actually trips on 15A), so my cooking >>> range has two induction rings and two butane rings. I am careful not >>> to use two big electrical appliances at the same time. >> >> Whoa ... 10A x 220V for the whole house? Here we have 15A x 110V for >> each outlet! > > 230 volts. Old contract, typical is 20A. Wow ! As said, USA, 15-20 amps PER OUTLET GROUP. 200 Amp (220-240v/120v) almost universal for homes. If you're gonna have electricity, HAVE SOME ELECTRICITY, not just a feeble little spark. >>> I intend to move to a flat within a year, when they end building it >>> and everything is papered and stamped over. All electric. Might >>> electrify my car too. >>> >>> My current house is too old, needs a good renovation which I'm not >>> keen on doing. Bedrooms are upstairs, and it is not guaranteed that I >>> will be able to climb the stairs as I grow older. So, move. >> >> Yes, those stairs are guaranteed to become a problem at some point. >> So in the apartment building, you also want to be on the ground floor! > > No, there are lifts. Spain is one of the countries with more elevators > per capita, so my flat is on the 2nd level (3rd for USA). :-) > >> >> You will probably have to upgrade the electric before you can sell the >> old house. > > > Nope, we can leave all the upgrading to the next owner. He has a lot to > do, like change the flooring, change the water pipes (in and out), > change the electricity ducting, maybe change some of the structure > beams, certainly repair cracks, do something about humidity, maybe redo > the roof... The house is sold as is, very possibly to tear it down > completely - except that the front is "protected" and has to be kept > intact, or reconstructed with the same appearance. Heh ... does sound cheaper to raze the building and start all over :-)
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-28 18:06 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Gas inspections |
| Message-ID | <fmm9rmxsp9.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #94739 |
On 2026-10-28 15:07, c186282 wrote: > On 10/28/26 08:05, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> On 2026-10-27 14:34, Lars Poulsen wrote: >>> On 10/26/2026 14:47, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>>> [...] >>>> Bottled butane is the old method, and the cheapest. If you use the >>>> heavy orange bottles of a certain regulated size, the price is also >>>> regulated. So low income families use those. >>>> >>>> Years later, depending on the city, we got ducted gas from Algeria. >>>> It is more expensive, simply because there is a meter and a >>>> contract. You pay even in summer. >>> >>> I guess butane works for household use in Spain. It will not work in >>> more Northern climates where the temperature can approach the >>> freezing point, because the boiling point of butane is at -0.4 C. So >>> if it is cold, you can't light the heater! > > Butane works just fine - so long as it doesn't > get TOO cold. Drop much below zeroC and it's > likely to just remain liquid in the bottle. > Propane IS better in this respect. > > Note butane and propane don't use the same air/gas > ratios for best burning ... really shouldn't try to > run old butane appliances on propane or methane, > or the other way around. You just need to change the metal piece that has a pin hole for the gas. Different diameter, that's it. Dunno the name. > >> Some places use propane instead. >> >> I know a friend in Madrid (where it does freeze in winter) who has old >> butane heating, with an array of maybe 8 or more butane bottles in >> parallel, for heating. >> >> >> Something similar to this, but bigger and better installed: >> >> https://share.google/kitJfMIQ6XBpgcdmD >> >> or this (commercial system): >> >> https://share.google/rc9Xv5NBuCizv7k2S >> >> >>> >>> For this reason, we here in California only ever see butane in pocket >>> cigarette lighters and in the little French "Bleuet Camping Gaz" cans. >>> >>> I discovered this problem when I tried to make coffee on a >>> Thanksgiving trip to the Grand Canyon. Had to take the blue can into >>> the sleeping bag with me to warm it up before I could light the stove. >> >> Heh :-) > > It's true. Butane is only for TINY stuff > in the USA. Propane or NG are the standards. > > One advantage of butane though, a strength in > its weakness, is that the pressure in the > container is lower than with propane/NG. You > can buy relatively thin/light cans of butane. Yes, I have portable cans for camping or emergencies. Very light. > >>>> I have just 10A of electricity (actually trips on 15A), so my >>>> cooking range has two induction rings and two butane rings. I am >>>> careful not to use two big electrical appliances at the same time. >>> >>> Whoa ... 10A x 220V for the whole house? Here we have 15A x 110V for >>> each outlet! >> >> 230 volts. Old contract, typical is 20A. > > Wow ! > > As said, USA, 15-20 amps PER OUTLET GROUP. 200 Amp > (220-240v/120v) almost universal for homes. What a waste. > > If you're gonna have electricity, HAVE SOME ELECTRICITY, > not just a feeble little spark. Easy: they charge us for the size of the electricity pipe. You want a 200Amps pipe for the entire house? More? Sure, you just pay a monthly fee. Number of A times number of days times constant fee. The result is that we size the Amps to the minimum we actually really need. I have an old contract, inherited from my father. The paper said 10A, but he could use significantly more, so he never cared to increase the number. Later the company came and installed a limiter. That did not work well, so they installed electronic meters with internal limitation. Fortunately for me, the actual limitation is set to 15A. I have some 2KW appliances, I just have to be careful of what I power up at the same time. Yes, I wanted to increase the number, but for that the company demands an installation certificate. I baulk, because it is not cheap for this old house. Too many problems in this house, so I'm moving to a new flat. > >>>> I intend to move to a flat within a year, when they end building it >>>> and everything is papered and stamped over. All electric. Might >>>> electrify my car too. >>>> >>>> My current house is too old, needs a good renovation which I'm not >>>> keen on doing. Bedrooms are upstairs, and it is not guaranteed that >>>> I will be able to climb the stairs as I grow older. So, move. >>> >>> Yes, those stairs are guaranteed to become a problem at some point. >>> So in the apartment building, you also want to be on the ground floor! >> >> No, there are lifts. Spain is one of the countries with more elevators >> per capita, so my flat is on the 2nd level (3rd for USA). :-) >> >>> >>> You will probably have to upgrade the electric before you can sell >>> the old house. >> >> >> Nope, we can leave all the upgrading to the next owner. He has a lot >> to do, like change the flooring, change the water pipes (in and out), >> change the electricity ducting, maybe change some of the structure >> beams, certainly repair cracks, do something about humidity, maybe >> redo the roof... The house is sold as is, very possibly to tear it >> down completely - except that the front is "protected" and has to be >> kept intact, or reconstructed with the same appearance. > > Heh ... does sound cheaper to raze the building and > start all over :-) That's what I would do, having the money and a family; but consider that building a house with concrete is more expensive than with wood. A hurricane doesn't blast my house. The roof can go, but not the half a meter thick stone walls. And remember, the new house has to look from outside identical to the old one. Inside can be all different, but the external appearance of the entire neighbourhood has to keep. -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-28 17:57 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Gas inspections |
| Message-ID | <11btd1e$2l8vh$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94746 |
On 28/10/2026 17:06, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> >> Note butane and propane don't use the same air/gas >> ratios for best burning ... really shouldn't try to >> run old butane appliances on propane or methane, >> or the other way around. > > You just need to change the metal piece that has a pin hole for the gas. > Different diameter, that's it. Dunno the name. > Jet -- "Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will let them."
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-28 22:21 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Gas inspections |
| Message-ID | <BcmdnZ9q9r0nMH_3nZ2dnZfqn_ednZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #94746 |
On 10/28/26 13:06, Carlos E.R. wrote: > On 2026-10-28 15:07, c186282 wrote: >> On 10/28/26 08:05, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>> On 2026-10-27 14:34, Lars Poulsen wrote: >>>> On 10/26/2026 14:47, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>>>> [...] >>>>> Bottled butane is the old method, and the cheapest. If you use the >>>>> heavy orange bottles of a certain regulated size, the price is also >>>>> regulated. So low income families use those. >>>>> >>>>> Years later, depending on the city, we got ducted gas from Algeria. >>>>> It is more expensive, simply because there is a meter and a >>>>> contract. You pay even in summer. >>>> >>>> I guess butane works for household use in Spain. It will not work in >>>> more Northern climates where the temperature can approach the >>>> freezing point, because the boiling point of butane is at -0.4 C. So >>>> if it is cold, you can't light the heater! >> >> Butane works just fine - so long as it doesn't >> get TOO cold. Drop much below zeroC and it's >> likely to just remain liquid in the bottle. >> Propane IS better in this respect. >> >> Note butane and propane don't use the same air/gas >> ratios for best burning ... really shouldn't try to >> run old butane appliances on propane or methane, >> or the other way around. > > You just need to change the metal piece that has a pin hole for the gas. > Different diameter, that's it. Dunno the name. > >> >>> Some places use propane instead. >>> >>> I know a friend in Madrid (where it does freeze in winter) who has >>> old butane heating, with an array of maybe 8 or more butane bottles >>> in parallel, for heating. >>> >>> >>> Something similar to this, but bigger and better installed: >>> >>> https://share.google/kitJfMIQ6XBpgcdmD >>> >>> or this (commercial system): >>> >>> https://share.google/rc9Xv5NBuCizv7k2S >>> >>> >>>> >>>> For this reason, we here in California only ever see butane in >>>> pocket cigarette lighters and in the little French "Bleuet Camping >>>> Gaz" cans. >>>> >>>> I discovered this problem when I tried to make coffee on a >>>> Thanksgiving trip to the Grand Canyon. Had to take the blue can into >>>> the sleeping bag with me to warm it up before I could light the stove. >>> >>> Heh :-) >> >> It's true. Butane is only for TINY stuff >> in the USA. Propane or NG are the standards. >> >> One advantage of butane though, a strength in >> its weakness, is that the pressure in the >> container is lower than with propane/NG. You >> can buy relatively thin/light cans of butane. > > Yes, I have portable cans for camping or emergencies. Very light. > >> >>>>> I have just 10A of electricity (actually trips on 15A), so my >>>>> cooking range has two induction rings and two butane rings. I am >>>>> careful not to use two big electrical appliances at the same time. >>>> >>>> Whoa ... 10A x 220V for the whole house? Here we have 15A x 110V for >>>> each outlet! >>> >>> 230 volts. Old contract, typical is 20A. >> >> Wow ! >> >> As said, USA, 15-20 amps PER OUTLET GROUP. 200 Amp >> (220-240v/120v) almost universal for homes. > > What a waste. Not at all ! Assume two water heaters AND a 3-4 ton A/C unit and a couple of 'major appliances'. IF they're all on at the same time that WILL suck a LOT of power. >> >> If you're gonna have electricity, HAVE SOME ELECTRICITY, >> not just a feeble little spark. > > > Easy: they charge us for the size of the electricity pipe. You want a > 200Amps pipe for the entire house? More? Sure, you just pay a monthly > fee. Number of A times number of days times constant fee. Fee ??? Are you still on post-WW2 rationing ? > The result is that we size the Amps to the minimum we actually really need. USA, the theory is to be GENEROUS by default. > I have an old contract, inherited from my father. The paper said 10A, > but he could use significantly more, so he never cared to increase the > number. Don't see how you can LIVE on that ... > Later the company came and installed a limiter. Ah ... 'socialist fascism' .......... > That did not work well, so they installed electronic meters with > internal limitation. Fortunately for me, the actual limitation is set to > 15A. I have some 2KW appliances, I just have to be careful of what I > power up at the same time. I don't. Almost impossible to overload a 200a feed. A/C plus both water heaters plus standard stove plus top burners plus the microwave .... Lights, in these LED days, don't use that much power - but it used to be lots of 100w bulbs. > Yes, I wanted to increase the number, but for that the company demands > an installation certificate. I baulk, because it is not cheap for this > old house. Too many problems in this house, so I'm moving to a new flat. Wow - it's just BAD BAD BAD wherever you are !!! Still 1929. Consider totally replacing the govt. >>>>> I intend to move to a flat within a year, when they end building it >>>>> and everything is papered and stamped over. All electric. Might >>>>> electrify my car too. >>>>> >>>>> My current house is too old, needs a good renovation which I'm not >>>>> keen on doing. Bedrooms are upstairs, and it is not guaranteed that >>>>> I will be able to climb the stairs as I grow older. So, move. >>>> >>>> Yes, those stairs are guaranteed to become a problem at some point. >>>> So in the apartment building, you also want to be on the ground floor! >>> >>> No, there are lifts. Spain is one of the countries with more >>> elevators per capita, so my flat is on the 2nd level (3rd for USA). :-) >>> >>>> >>>> You will probably have to upgrade the electric before you can sell >>>> the old house. >>> >>> >>> Nope, we can leave all the upgrading to the next owner. He has a lot >>> to do, like change the flooring, change the water pipes (in and out), >>> change the electricity ducting, maybe change some of the structure >>> beams, certainly repair cracks, do something about humidity, maybe >>> redo the roof... The house is sold as is, very possibly to tear it >>> down completely - except that the front is "protected" and has to be >>> kept intact, or reconstructed with the same appearance. >> >> Heh ... does sound cheaper to raze the building and >> start all over :-) > > > That's what I would do, having the money and a family; but consider that > building a house with concrete is more expensive than with wood. A > hurricane doesn't blast my house. The roof can go, but not the half a > meter thick stone walls. In my will, I *do* rec razing the old house. It's too low to the ground now anyway, uninsurable since all the surrounding places put houses up on little hills and the county won't fix the drainage culverts. > And remember, the new house has to look from outside identical to the > old one. Inside can be all different, but the external appearance of the > entire neighbourhood has to keep. WHY does it have to look identical ??? I can replace mine with something out of the Frank Lloyd Wright or Buckminster Fuller catalog if I want. At least one geodesic dome near me and some people build from 2-5 metal cargo containers. In Texas you can go even more wild - build a mini medieval castle right next to a boring square apartment complex if you want. Had an idea of a kind of rectangle, but with the entire front curved out and made of bronzed storm-rated windows ... Sounds like you're micro-managed to the EXTREME and PUT UP WITH IT. What's next, mandate "traditional" dung and straw huts ??? Another good reason for the USA revolution. COMPLETELY new govt ... think about it, quick.
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| From | Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-29 02:51 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Gas inspections |
| Message-ID | <slrn11e5d5b.r90.spamtrap42@one.localnet> |
| In reply to | #94765 |
On 2026-10-29, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote: > > I don't. Almost impossible to overload a 200a feed. > A/C plus both water heaters plus standard stove > plus top burners plus the microwave .... The "200A" figure in the US is much more theoretical than practical, at least with Portland General Electric as the utility. Over 30 years ago when I had a house built, PGE installed a new 25KVA on-ground transformer just for our new house because the new house was on the last-to-be-developed lot in the area and was on a long driveway, too far from other houses to connect to their transformers. Even if power factor was unity, 25KVA into 240V is only 104A. I mentioned to the PGE supervisor that I could approach or maybe exceed 25KVA without excessive effort: A/C, electric cooking stove with 4 burners plus oven (preparing Thanksgiving, Christmas, or other big family feast), electric clothes dryer, a couple of 1650W hair dryers, and (a few years later) nine 500W halogen exterior lights, plus misc. indoor lights and appliances He said PGE routinely puts _SIX_ houses, each with at least 200A service, on a single 25KVA transformer. That helped me understand why PGE's transformers every once in a while would explode, and now why there are odd-shaped black patches that look like scorch marks on the exterior of the pole-mounted transformer that supplies my current house and one other house. By the way, the big exterior lights were controlled by X10 switches. I had an X10 controller on my nightstand. With the press of one button, I could light up the entire area around the house brightly enough to mow the lawn. I did that once (at about 8pm on a September evening with stars visible in the black sky) just to be able to say I had. -- Robert Riches spamtrap42@jacob21819.net (Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-29 21:48 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: [OT] Gas inspections |
| Message-ID | <a1ocrmxsro.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #94768 |
On 2026-10-29 03:51, Robert Riches wrote: > On 2026-10-29, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote: >> >> I don't. Almost impossible to overload a 200a feed. >> A/C plus both water heaters plus standard stove >> plus top burners plus the microwave .... > > The "200A" figure in the US is much more theoretical than > practical, at least with Portland General Electric as the > utility. Over 30 years ago when I had a house built, PGE > installed a new 25KVA on-ground transformer just for our new > house because the new house was on the last-to-be-developed lot > in the area and was on a long driveway, too far from other houses > to connect to their transformers. Even if power factor was > unity, 25KVA into 240V is only 104A. > > I mentioned to the PGE supervisor that I could approach or maybe > exceed 25KVA without excessive effort: A/C, electric cooking > stove with 4 burners plus oven (preparing Thanksgiving, > Christmas, or other big family feast), electric clothes dryer, a > couple of 1650W hair dryers, and (a few years later) nine 500W > halogen exterior lights, plus misc. indoor lights and appliances > He said PGE routinely puts _SIX_ houses, each with at least 200A > service, on a single 25KVA transformer. That helped me > understand why PGE's transformers every once in a while would > explode, and now why there are odd-shaped black patches that look > like scorch marks on the exterior of the pole-mounted transformer > that supplies my current house and one other house. LOL. > > By the way, the big exterior lights were controlled by X10 > switches. I had an X10 controller on my nightstand. With the > press of one button, I could light up the entire area around the > house brightly enough to mow the lawn. I did that once (at about > 8pm on a September evening with stars visible in the black sky) > just to be able to say I had. > -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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