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The pernicious Microsoft tax

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  The pernicious Microsoft tax Hils <hils@saynotospam.net> - 2014-09-10 10:05 +0100
    Re: The pernicious Microsoft tax Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-09-10 09:50 +0000
      Re: The pernicious Microsoft tax Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-09-10 10:58 +0100
    Re: The pernicious Microsoft tax Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-09-10 12:57 +0300
      Re: The pernicious Microsoft tax Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2014-09-10 19:20 +0000
        Re: The pernicious Microsoft tax Hils <hils@saynotospam.net> - 2014-09-10 23:55 +0100
          Re: The pernicious Microsoft tax Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2014-09-11 08:53 +0000
    Re: The pernicious Microsoft tax mm0fmf <none@mailinator.com> - 2014-09-10 18:00 +0100
      Re: The pernicious Microsoft tax Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-09-10 13:25 -0400
        Re: The pernicious Microsoft tax mm0fmf <none@mailinator.com> - 2014-09-10 18:44 +0100
          Re: The pernicious Microsoft tax Hils <hils@saynotospam.net> - 2014-09-10 21:46 +0100
        Re: The pernicious Microsoft tax Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2014-09-11 11:04 +0300
    Re: The pernicious Microsoft tax Peter Mc Donough <mcd-mail-lists@gmx.net> - 2014-09-10 19:29 +0200
    Re: The pernicious Microsoft tax Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> - 2014-09-10 21:37 +0000
    Re: The pernicious Microsoft tax greymausg <maus@mail.com> - 2014-09-12 20:35 +0000
      Re: The pernicious Microsoft tax Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-09-12 23:51 -0400
      Re: The pernicious Microsoft tax Hils <hils@saynotospam.net> - 2014-09-13 08:15 +0100
    Re: The pernicious Microsoft tax Torsten Bronger <bronger@physik.rwth-aachen.de> - 2014-09-13 14:51 +0200
      Re: The pernicious Microsoft tax Peter Mc Donough <mcd-mail-lists@gmx.net> - 2014-09-13 18:08 +0200
        Re: The pernicious Microsoft tax Torsten Bronger <bronger@physik.rwth-aachen.de> - 2014-09-13 18:19 +0200

#4781 — The pernicious Microsoft tax

(A bit of a rant...)

A few days ago I called into my local computer shop. They had some
neat-looking, well-specced laptops at a good price, and as my current
model is nearly six years old I asked the owner of the shop whether he
could supply any without operating systems. His face dropped as he said
that he had been unable to find any suppliers of laptops without Windows
pre-installed, though he was still looking.

Why is this sh*t still happening? For the foreseeable future my working
OS will be GNU/Linux or BSD. Why should I have to pay for a Microsoft
licence when the first thing I'll do with a new laptop is permanently
remove all traces of their unwanted product from it?

I should probably take this up with my member of parliament (who
supposedly represents both myself and the shop owner), but he's every
inch a corporate stooge: the last I heard about him he was still trying
to start wars with Syria and Iran.

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#4784

Hils <hils@saynotospam.net> wrote:
> (A bit of a rant...)

> A few days ago I called into my local computer shop. They had some
> neat-looking, well-specced laptops at a good price, and as my current
> model is nearly six years old I asked the owner of the shop whether
> he could supply any without operating systems. His face dropped as he
> said that he had been unable to find any suppliers of laptops without
> Windows pre-installed, though he was still looking.

> Why is this sh*t still happening?

Because MS is still practicising the same old policy of monopoly
exclusion, even after having been found guilty of anti-trust in the US
(although the sanctions in the US amounted to essentially nothing)

> ...

> I should probably take this up with my member of parliament (who
> supposedly represents both myself and the shop owner), but he's every
> inch a corporate stooge: the last I heard about him he was still
> trying to start wars with Syria and Iran.

The only item an elected official truly fears is loosing an election. 
All all the corporate moola in the world won't help there when their
own voters finally turn against them.  So contacting the fool might
carry more weight than you believe.  

Sadly, too few will call with this particular concern such that he
won't perceive it as sufficiently weighty to change his ways in any
form, because he won't fear loosing the next election.

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#4786

In article <lup6tv$g2u$3@dont-email.me>, Rich <rich@example.invalid>
wrote:

> The only item an elected official truly fears is loosing an election. 

> form, because he won't fear loosing the next election.

You certainly don't want a loose election. It might run away.

-- 
"The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armour to
 lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores 
 the fact that it was he who, by peddling second-rate technology, led them
 into it in the first place."                             - Douglas Adams

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#4785

Hils <hils@saynotospam.net>:

> His face dropped as he said that he had been unable to find any
> suppliers of laptops without Windows pre-installed, though he was
> still looking.

What I want is a smartphone without an OS pre-installed.

Last week, I upgraded my phone to WP8.1 and lost my camera in the
process. Bugs happen, that's understandable, but there's no way I could
debug and fix it myself. MS has known about the issue since April, but
they don't seem interested in addressing it.

If only cell phones were like blank PCs where I could install, say, Fedora.


Marko

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#4807

On 2014-09-10, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:

> If only cell phones were like blank PCs where I could install, say, Fedora.

Ubuntuphone?

The problem is the patented GSM broadband processor.

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#4814

On 2014-09-10 20:20, Huge wrote:
> On 2014-09-10, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
> 
>> If only cell phones were like blank PCs where I could install, say, Fedora.
> 
> Ubuntuphone?
> 
> The problem is the patented GSM broadband processor.

It's disappointing that a working version of Ubuntu Phone hasn't
appeared yet. A cellphone which could run *n*x could be almost too cool.

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#4818

On 2014-09-10, Hils <hils@saynotospam.net> wrote:
> On 2014-09-10 20:20, Huge wrote:
>> On 2014-09-10, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> If only cell phones were like blank PCs where I could install, say, Fedora.
>> 
>> Ubuntuphone?
>> 
>> The problem is the patented GSM broadband processor.
>
> It's disappointing that a working version of Ubuntu Phone hasn't
> appeared yet. A cellphone which could run *n*x could be almost too cool.

You are aware that the Blackberry 10 runs QNX, right?  But it isn't Open
Source, and it's heavily locked down.

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#4796

On 10/09/2014 10:05, Hils wrote:
> Why should I have to pay for a Microsoft
> licence when the first thing I'll do with a new laptop is permanently
> remove all traces of their unwanted product from it?


HP sell laptops with Linux installed, Dell sell laptops with Linux 
installed. You've no need to buy and remove it.

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#4797

On Wed, 10 Sep 2014, mm0fmf wrote:

> On 10/09/2014 10:05, Hils wrote:
>> Why should I have to pay for a Microsoft
>> licence when the first thing I'll do with a new laptop is permanently
>> remove all traces of their unwanted product from it?
>
>
> HP sell laptops with Linux installed, Dell sell laptops with Linux installed. 
> You've no need to buy and remove it.
>
How's the pricing?  If there's a difference, is it extra cost for the 
WIndows that's removed and then the installation of Linux?

   Michael

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#4800

On 10/09/2014 18:25, Michael Black wrote:
> How's the pricing?  If there's a difference, is it extra cost for the
> WIndows that's removed and then the installation of Linux?
>

I don't know or care. I recycle laptops from where I work when they are 
typically 2-3 years old and written off. Costs me a battery at most.

But Brother Hils just likes to bitch about his pets hates.

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#4812

On 2014-09-10 18:44, mm0fmf wrote:
> On 10/09/2014 18:25, Michael Black wrote:
>> How's the pricing?  If there's a difference, is it extra cost for the
>> WIndows that's removed and then the installation of Linux?
>>
> I don't know or care. I recycle laptops from where I work when they are
> typically 2-3 years old and written off. Costs me a battery at most.
> 
> But Brother Hils just likes to bitch about his pets hates.

I was trying to use a local business to get my next laptop, and I can't
currently do this without paying a licence fee to a company whose
business practices are anathema to me, for a product which I have no use
for and cannot resell. It's bad for me, bad for the shop owner and his
employees, and probably bad for those of his customers who may be smart
enough to use Linux but decide that they might as well use Windows
because they have to pay for it anyway.

As Rich pointed out, it's monopoly exclusion and it sucks.

And I'm not bitching, I'm ranting.

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#4817

Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> writes:

> How's the pricing?  If there's a difference, is it extra cost for the
> WIndows that's removed and then the installation of Linux?

From a quick look, Dell's offering of the XPS 13 (developer edition is
the Linux version) is $50 more expensive without Windows in the cheapest
configuration. In the beefier config it looks like the Linux version is
$150 cheaper. Weird.

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#4798

Am 10.09.2014 um 11:05 schrieb Hils:

> ...
> Why is this sh*t still happening? For the foreseeable future my working
> OS will be GNU/Linux or BSD. ...

Than you should make sure that you can install an OS of your choice 
after you removed a preinstalled Windows OS.
I read but I can't find a page where on user complained it was Windows 
or nothing on his computer.

cu
Peter

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#4813

On 2014-09-10, Hils <hils@saynotospam.net> wrote:
> (A bit of a rant...)
>
> A few days ago I called into my local computer shop. They had some
> neat-looking, well-specced laptops at a good price, and as my current
> model is nearly six years old I asked the owner of the shop whether he
> could supply any without operating systems. His face dropped as he said
> that he had been unable to find any suppliers of laptops without Windows
> pre-installed, though he was still looking.
>
> Why is this sh*t still happening? For the foreseeable future my working
> OS will be GNU/Linux or BSD. Why should I have to pay for a Microsoft
> licence when the first thing I'll do with a new laptop is permanently
> remove all traces of their unwanted product from it?
>
> I should probably take this up with my member of parliament (who
> supposedly represents both myself and the shop owner), but he's every
> inch a corporate stooge: the last I heard about him he was still trying
> to start wars with Syria and Iran.

Shop around.  

You may have to dig pretty deeply on the web sites of large computer
makers, but there are sometimes options available to special order which
are not sold to high-street chains or independent retailers.  

HP openly offer support for Red Hat and SuSE systems - but a quick look
around their web site failed to find any prices at all for machines with
those OSs, or no OS at all, installed.

Smaller makers are less bashful about offering different installed OS
options on their products; eg Novatech <http://www.novatech.co.uk/>
quote prices for various flavours and blends of pre-installed Microsoft
software and for no installed software - such as 

Novatech nPro N1599 laptop
		
		Intel Celeron Processor
		15.6" HD Screen
		4GB Memory
		500GB Hard Drive

Mo installed OS 	£259.99 incl VAT
Windows 8.1 Pro		£370
Windows 7 Ultimate	£409.99
etc

Of course, the major Chinese-built brands can offer similar hardware
with Windows software installed, at prices which make the no-software
options from smaller firms less impressive.

-- 
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
--  Whiskers 
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

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#4859

On 2014-09-10, Hils <hils@saynotospam.net> wrote:
> (A bit of a rant...)
>
> A few days ago I called into my local computer shop. They had some
> neat-looking, well-specced laptops at a good price, and as my current
> model is nearly six years old I asked the owner of the shop whether he
> could supply any without operating systems. His face dropped as he said
> that he had been unable to find any suppliers of laptops without Windows
> pre-installed, though he was still looking.
>
> Why is this sh*t still happening? For the foreseeable future my working
> OS will be GNU/Linux or BSD. Why should I have to pay for a Microsoft
> licence when the first thing I'll do with a new laptop is permanently
> remove all traces of their unwanted product from it?
>
> I should probably take this up with my member of parliament (who
> supposedly represents both myself and the shop owner), but he's every
> inch a corporate stooge: the last I heard about him he was still trying
> to start wars with Syria and Iran.

Well, one point for the shop owners is  that they do not
have to deal with problems in installing Linux. (Yes, it irritates
me as well)


-- 
maus

Will rant for food.  Alcohol is a food.

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#4862

On Fri, 12 Sep 2014, greymausg wrote:

> On 2014-09-10, Hils <hils@saynotospam.net> wrote:
>> (A bit of a rant...)
>>
>> A few days ago I called into my local computer shop. They had some
>> neat-looking, well-specced laptops at a good price, and as my current
>> model is nearly six years old I asked the owner of the shop whether he
>> could supply any without operating systems. His face dropped as he said
>> that he had been unable to find any suppliers of laptops without Windows
>> pre-installed, though he was still looking.
>>
>> Why is this sh*t still happening? For the foreseeable future my working
>> OS will be GNU/Linux or BSD. Why should I have to pay for a Microsoft
>> licence when the first thing I'll do with a new laptop is permanently
>> remove all traces of their unwanted product from it?
>>
>> I should probably take this up with my member of parliament (who
>> supposedly represents both myself and the shop owner), but he's every
>> inch a corporate stooge: the last I heard about him he was still trying
>> to start wars with Syria and Iran.
>
> Well, one point for the shop owners is  that they do not
> have to deal with problems in installing Linux. (Yes, it irritates
> me as well)
>
Of course, out of the box the machine will work with Windows, while some 
details may not be revealed so Linux appears fussier.

There's also the issue that a Windows machine is one of many like it, so 
any configuration can be done once, and then the results copied to those 
fresh hard drives.  Since still relatively few people use Linux, and few 
are willing to spend the money to have it preinstalled, it is like some 
end user fussing over installing Linux on the new computer.  If any work 
needs to be done, it can't be amortized over many computers.  COMpare that 
with a business that has all Linux computers, a new release of the 
distributin they use is about one computer being configured, and then just 
mass install that to the rest of the computers.  The effort for the first 
computer may require some fussing, but the fifty or a hundred are just 
cloned from the first.

   Michael

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#4864

On 2014-09-12 21:35, greymausg wrote:
> Well, one point for the shop owners is  that they do not
> have to deal with problems in installing Linux. (Yes, it irritates
> me as well)
My last GNU/Linux install (Debian 7) was smoother than any Windows
installs I can recall (I stopped using it with XP). The nearest to a
glitch was when it waited for me to OK the installation of wifi drivers
because their licence didn't conform with Debian's relatively strict
definition of "free". It's possible that I got lucky with my choice of
laptop, and different hardware could have more problems.

This shop owner wants to be able to sell barebones machines, but can't
source them. I didn't ask him whether he'd be able to install Linux. The
last time I bought a machine with a pre-installed OS was a used 486
running Windows 3.1. (Making that one dual-boot with Red Hat 5 was a
learning experience.)

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#4868

Hallöchen!

Hils writes:

> (A bit of a rant...)
>
> A few days ago I called into my local computer shop. They had some
> neat-looking, well-specced laptops at a good price, and as my
> current model is nearly six years old I asked the owner of the
> shop whether he could supply any without operating systems. His
> face dropped as he said that he had been unable to find any
> suppliers of laptops without Windows pre-installed, though he was
> still looking.

See https://wiki.fsfe.org/WindowsTaxRefund

BTW, yesterday an Italian court decided that Italian customers now
can get refund for unused Microsoft licences.

Tschö,
Torsten.

-- 
Torsten Bronger    Jabber ID: torsten.bronger@jabber.rwth-aachen.de
                                  or http://bronger-jmp.appspot.com

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#4873

Am 13.09.2014 um 14:51 schrieb Torsten Bronger:

>
> See https://wiki.fsfe.org/WindowsTaxRefund
>
> BTW, yesterday an Italian court decided that Italian customers now
> can get refund for unused Microsoft licences.

I would sell an computer with a Windows which would leave the computer 
useless if removed (secure boot). Should be no problem if clearly stated 
on the box. How many customers would care?

cu
Peter

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#4874

Hallöchen!

Peter Mc Donough writes:

> Am 13.09.2014 um 14:51 schrieb Torsten Bronger:
>
>> See https://wiki.fsfe.org/WindowsTaxRefund
>>
>> BTW, yesterday an Italian court decided that Italian customers
>> now can get refund for unused Microsoft licences.
>
> I would sell an computer with a Windows which would leave the
> computer useless if removed (secure boot). Should be no problem if
> clearly stated on the box. How many customers would care?

This judgement is not directly about customers but about -- albeit
country-specific -- competition rules.

Tschö,
Torsten.

-- 
Torsten Bronger    Jabber ID: torsten.bronger@jabber.rwth-aachen.de
                                  or http://bronger-jmp.appspot.com

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