Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.misc > #7925

Re: Why I dislike systemd

Show all headers | View raw

Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> writes:

> RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com>:
>
>> ... and that's the real issue, isn't it, that a huge proportion of the
>> complaining turns out to be uneducated or misinformed.
>
> Much of the complaining seems to come from the system administrators'
> corner. Veteran UNIX system administrators have wanted to feel they have
> the ultimate power over their systems. They don't really acknowledge the
> existence of black boxes. The system components are just that:
> components, and the system administrator is the divine being that moulds
> the system into his own image.
>
> Now, systemd is part of a grand scheme to tie the hands of the system
> administrators. Instead of Super-Users, they are demoted into lowly
> operators, who are given very limited degrees of freedom. They hate
> that.
>
>> I'm not convinced I like systemd, but I'm not convinced I dislike it,
>> either. I do agree init could use an update.
>
> As a developer, I'm big on black boxes. Crystal-clear inputs, outputs,
> policies and protocols make it possible to build and maintain complex
> systems. Improvising leads to nightmarish situations. In one company, we
> seriously considered encrypting the configuration files because our
> customers and sales engineers took too many liberties with them.
>
> Unfortunately, systemd does not replace the improvised mess that is
> init.d with a rigorous methodology.

How are the .service files not a rigorous methodology?
They beat scripts to death on that front.

> For example, who is supposed to
> write the systemd configuration file for the "postfix" MTA?
>
>  (a) the system administrator
>
>  (b) the distro maker
>
>  (c) the "postfix" developers

Since the developers don't know the names of other services
that a .service may need, the distro.

> As it stands, the distro makers took on that responsibility for
> political reasons.

Technical reasons as explained above.

> However, the distro maker is not going to include the
> systemd configuration for my new service. So am I, the developer,
> supposed to write the systemd configuration files or is that a job for
> my customer, the system administrator?

Your job.  No one else has the info.

> I suppose that's a job for me, the developer. However, I run into many
> small issues:
>
>  * How do I quote an arbitrary command into an ExecStart entry?

Looks like you just type the command without quotes.  If you need
substitution,  there are things like %I, %f allowed.  Read the docs.
man systemd.service(5).

>  * Where do I place my .service file?

man systemd look for DIRECTORIES

>  * What are the correct systemd targets to depend on?

I think that's at the distro level, but I expect that most distros use
the same names for their .service files.

> Distro documentation caters to the system administrator. What I need is
> developer guides for the different distros.

I have not observed anything like that.

> [Analogous problems plague also SELinux. Systemd is a piece of cake
> compared to SELinux.]

Right after I install, selinux gets removed/disabled.

>> In fact, I googled it and came up with this page:
>> http://alternativeto.net/software/systemd/ and was surprised by how
>> many alternatives there are. Let the best technical solution prevail!
>
> Technical superiority is a moot point. If you develop for RedHat or
> Debian, you integrate with systemd, period. You don't go against systemd
> any more than you would choose a BSD system call on Linux because you
> think it's technically superior.

I haven't seen an alternative I'd consider an improvement.

-- 
Dan Espen

Back to comp.misc | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

Why I dislike systemd Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2015-06-15 10:04 +0000
  Re: Why I dislike systemd Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-06-15 11:17 +0000
  Re: Why I dislike systemd Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-06-15 09:46 -0400
    Re: Why I dislike systemd RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2015-06-15 17:24 +0300
      Re: Why I dislike systemd Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-06-15 18:45 +0300
        Re: Why I dislike systemd Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-06-15 12:33 -0400
          Re: Why I dislike systemd Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-06-15 21:16 +0300
            Re: Why I dislike systemd Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-06-15 15:19 -0400
              Re: Why I dislike systemd Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-06-15 23:11 +0300
                Re: Why I dislike systemd Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-06-15 16:53 -0400
                Re: Why I dislike systemd Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-06-16 00:14 +0300
                Re: Why I dislike systemd Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-06-15 21:02 -0400
                Re: Why I dislike systemd Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-06-16 07:48 +0300
                Re: Why I dislike systemd Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-06-16 11:08 -0400
        Re: Why I dislike systemd Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2015-06-15 19:20 +0100
        Re: Why I dislike systemd Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-06-15 16:19 -0300
      Re: Why I dislike systemd Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2015-06-15 20:13 +0100
    Re: Why I dislike systemd Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> - 2015-06-15 15:50 +0000
      Re: Why I dislike systemd Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-06-15 12:14 -0400
      Re: Why I dislike systemd Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2015-06-15 17:18 +0100

csiph-web