Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants

From	Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address>
Newsgroups	comp.misc
Subject	Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants
Date	2014-06-07 13:24 +1000
Message-ID	<bvff06Fi1dhU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(2 earlier) <slrnlormeb.34a.catwheezel@ID-107770.user.individual.net> <bvb59gFkt4jU1@mid.individual.net> <slrnlp1ivc.k7h.catwheezel@ID-107770.user.individual.net> <bvclguF9khU1@mid.individual.net> <slrnlp489d.1en.catwheezel@ID-107770.user.individual.net>

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On 7/06/2014 6:14 AM, Whiskers wrote:
> On 2014-06-06, Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:
>> On 6/06/2014 5:58 AM, Whiskers wrote:
>>> On 2014-06-05, Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:
>>>> On 4/06/2014 12:20 AM, Whiskers wrote:
>>>>> On 2014-06-02, Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/06/2014 8:44 PM, Rich wrote:
>>>>>>> http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/the-smarter-grid/new-flow-battery-aims-to-replace-gas-plants
>
> [...]
>
>>> Massive re-chargeable batteries such as these have the potential to
>>> replace the gas and diesel plant currently needed to back up the
>>> windmills - once the batteries are big enough and reliable enough.  This
>>> installation is a 'proof of concept' test-bed; if successful it will
>>> show that 'green' power might one day be really useful on a large scale.
>>>
>>
>> The problem is that, unlike gas and diesel plant which can run
>> indefinitely, batteries can only provide power until they are
>> discharged. Since they can only be charged again when supply from other
>> sources again exceeds the immediate demand, this means that the gas and
>> diesel plant are still required to handle that situation.
>
> Not if you build enough storage capacity.  Bigger batteries and/or more
> of them.

How much is enough, bearing in mind that it can remain overcast and 
windless for extended periods. The bigger the batteries are, the more 
they cost, and that cost is reflected in the price of energy supplied to 
the consumer.

>
> Gas and diesel power stations are also limited by their fuel storage
> capacity; when the tanks are empty the power stops.

We can deliver more fuel in time to prevent that from happening, and the 
fuel doesn't run out (at least it hasn't so far) because we can extract 
more from the ground.

>  We've pretty much
> worked out how to build big fuel tanks, or aggregate a lot of smaller
> ones, and keep them filled, so when everything is working as it should
> the power can be kept running.
>
> One thing batteries can do which gas or diesel generators can't, is act
> as 'load'.  So whenever your base load generators have a bit to spare,
> you can use it to recharge some batteries.  This makes the base load
> generators a lot more efficient.

Another way of saying that it makes them more efficient, is that it 
makes them more economically attractive, which is the point I made earlier.

>> So a system that includes wind and solar power and batteries will still
>> need the same non-intermittent power supplies as would be required if
>> the wind, solar and batteries didn't exist.
>>
>> All the batteries do is change the economics of that non-intermittent
>> supply.
>>
>> Sylvia.
>
> They will change the economics quite radically.
>

But not in the direction you seem to be anticipating. Given cheap 
batteries, an energy supplier will build new coal fired power stations, 
and use the batteries to displace the more environmentally friendly (in 
the CO2 sense) gas fired non-baseload generation.

They could build new nuclear power-plants, but given attitudes to 
nuclear, I don't see that happening much.

Sylvia.

Thread

Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-06-02 10:44 +0000
  Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2014-06-02 23:47 +1000
    Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> - 2014-06-03 15:20 +0100
      Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2014-06-05 22:14 +1000
        Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> - 2014-06-05 20:58 +0100
          Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2014-06-06 11:57 +1000
            Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> - 2014-06-06 21:14 +0100
              Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2014-06-07 13:24 +1000
                Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Will Honea <whonea@whonea.net> - 2014-06-06 22:49 -0600
                Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-06-07 08:33 +0200
                Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2014-06-07 16:44 +1000
  Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Bruce Horrocks <07.013@scorecrow.com> - 2014-06-07 22:02 +0100
  Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-06-09 19:42 +0000
    Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-06-09 22:37 +0100
      Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-06-09 15:19 -0700
        Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-06-09 23:26 +0100
          Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-06-09 15:36 -0700
            Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-06-09 23:40 +0100
              Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-06-09 16:12 -0700
        Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-10 07:44 +0300
          Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-06-10 18:47 +0000
            Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-10 23:43 +0300
              Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-06-11 17:12 +0000
                Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-11 21:58 +0300
                Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-06-18 12:44 -0700
          Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-06-11 17:20 +0000
            Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-11 22:05 +0300
              Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-06-11 20:52 +0000
                Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-12 00:14 +0300
                Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-06-11 15:12 -0700
                Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-12 09:18 +0300
                Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-06-12 09:31 +0100
                Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-12 12:34 +0300
                Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-06-12 12:37 +0200
                Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-06-12 10:39 +0000
                Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-12 13:56 +0300
                Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-06-12 12:10 +0000
                Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-12 15:32 +0300
                Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-06-13 12:37 +0000
                Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-06-13 14:13 +0100
                Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-06-12 10:30 +0000
                Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2014-06-12 10:59 +0000
                Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-06-12 12:12 +0000
    Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2014-06-10 20:42 +1000
      Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-06-10 15:55 +0100
      Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-06-10 18:47 +0000
        Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-10 23:50 +0300
          Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-06-11 17:13 +0000
          Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Randy Westlund <Vorzakir@invalid.invalid> - 2014-06-11 17:23 +0000
            Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-11 22:13 +0300
              Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Randy Westlund <Vorzakir@invalid.invalid> - 2014-06-11 19:22 +0000
                Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-11 22:39 +0300
                Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Randy Westlund <Vorzakir@invalid.invalid> - 2014-06-11 19:54 +0000
            Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-06-11 22:26 +0100
            Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-06-12 00:47 +0000
        Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2014-06-11 11:57 +1000
          Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-06-11 17:12 +0000
        Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Johny B Good <johnny-b-good@invalid.ntlworld.com> - 2014-06-11 19:21 +0100

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