Path: csiph.com!newsfeed.hal-mli.net!feeder3.hal-mli.net!newsfeed.fsmpi.rwth-aachen.de!news-1.dfn.de!news.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail From: Sylvia Else Newsgroups: comp.misc Subject: Re: Iron-Chromium Flow Battery Aims to Replace Gas Plants Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2014 13:24:52 +1000 Lines: 75 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: individual.net aN2el7f7r8eJLpYnS43EeQgtK1iFraKWSFnYNxxQK9sD6UIVaw Cancel-Lock: sha1:8AG86AQ8gDBczHpeitqKCPCkWfU= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 In-Reply-To: Xref: csiph.com comp.misc:3540 On 7/06/2014 6:14 AM, Whiskers wrote: > On 2014-06-06, Sylvia Else wrote: >> On 6/06/2014 5:58 AM, Whiskers wrote: >>> On 2014-06-05, Sylvia Else wrote: >>>> On 4/06/2014 12:20 AM, Whiskers wrote: >>>>> On 2014-06-02, Sylvia Else wrote: >>>>>> On 2/06/2014 8:44 PM, Rich wrote: >>>>>>> http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/the-smarter-grid/new-flow-battery-aims-to-replace-gas-plants > > [...] > >>> Massive re-chargeable batteries such as these have the potential to >>> replace the gas and diesel plant currently needed to back up the >>> windmills - once the batteries are big enough and reliable enough. This >>> installation is a 'proof of concept' test-bed; if successful it will >>> show that 'green' power might one day be really useful on a large scale. >>> >> >> The problem is that, unlike gas and diesel plant which can run >> indefinitely, batteries can only provide power until they are >> discharged. Since they can only be charged again when supply from other >> sources again exceeds the immediate demand, this means that the gas and >> diesel plant are still required to handle that situation. > > Not if you build enough storage capacity. Bigger batteries and/or more > of them. How much is enough, bearing in mind that it can remain overcast and windless for extended periods. The bigger the batteries are, the more they cost, and that cost is reflected in the price of energy supplied to the consumer. > > Gas and diesel power stations are also limited by their fuel storage > capacity; when the tanks are empty the power stops. We can deliver more fuel in time to prevent that from happening, and the fuel doesn't run out (at least it hasn't so far) because we can extract more from the ground. > We've pretty much > worked out how to build big fuel tanks, or aggregate a lot of smaller > ones, and keep them filled, so when everything is working as it should > the power can be kept running. > > One thing batteries can do which gas or diesel generators can't, is act > as 'load'. So whenever your base load generators have a bit to spare, > you can use it to recharge some batteries. This makes the base load > generators a lot more efficient. Another way of saying that it makes them more efficient, is that it makes them more economically attractive, which is the point I made earlier. >> So a system that includes wind and solar power and batteries will still >> need the same non-intermittent power supplies as would be required if >> the wind, solar and batteries didn't exist. >> >> All the batteries do is change the economics of that non-intermittent >> supply. >> >> Sylvia. > > They will change the economics quite radically. > But not in the direction you seem to be anticipating. Given cheap batteries, an energy supplier will build new coal fired power stations, and use the batteries to displace the more environmentally friendly (in the CO2 sense) gas fired non-baseload generation. They could build new nuclear power-plants, but given attitudes to nuclear, I don't see that happening much. Sylvia.