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Groups > comp.lang.python > #80808

Re: I love assert

Date 2014-11-14 20:09 -0800
From Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us>
Subject Re: I love assert
References (2 earlier) <87a93wqeq3.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <mailman.15744.1415829173.18130.python-list@python.org> <5465e887$0$12976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <mailman.15827.1415989114.18130.python-list@python.org> <5466c13d$0$13009$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
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On 11/14/2014 06:58 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> Ethan Furman wrote:
>> 
>> My point being:  a safety net that is so easily disabled does not count (IMHO) as a backup.
> 
> Assertions are not a backup or a safety net. [...]

Would you be happier if I phrased that as: Defensive programming techniques that can be unknowingly disabled by the
end-user aren't very helpful?


>>> If your process is so poor that you release code without running it with asserts enabled, then assert will not
>>> save you from bugs.
>> 
>> This is one my very few complaints about Python:  running it normally is the same as running with DEBUG turned
>> on, so the unusual case is remembering to run with asserts turned /off/.
> 
> That's curious. Your complaint is that asserts are too easy to disable, nevertheless it takes a deliberate and
> conscious act to disable them.

And more likely they were disabled because somebody was trying to get more performance from the app, not because that
someone thought, "I know, I'll turn asserts off and see how badly I can corrupt all my data."

> By default, Python runs assertions. And yet that is your complaint, so I suppose that you would rather asserts
> *didn't* run by default and you needed a deliberate act to run in debug mode.

That is correct.

> That doesn't seem consistent to me.

Because debug mode runs by default, many folks (myself included) simply run everything in debug mode.  I have never
even considered, until this very moment, to run my unittests with -O.  And yet the very purpose of -O is to
(hopefully) get more performance.  So you end up with folks using asserts inappropriately, yet their tests pass.  They
distribute their code.  Somebody has a slower machine, or gobs of data, so they decide to use -O.  Asserts are
disabled, something somewhere isn't checked, an error passes silently, the wrong thing happens... I'll you use your
imagination for what happens next.

Having debug mode be the default makes it too easy to screw up.

And yes, I am aware of at least one very large, complex, and modular system that uses Python, Javascript, CSS, HTML,
and some templating language I don't remember the name of.  It allows for third-party module integration.  It checks
third-party code with asserts.  It checks user-input with asserts.

I strongly suspect that if debug mode was not the default, this particular abuse wouldn't happen nearly as frequently
as it does.

- --
~Ethan~
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Thread

I love assert Peter Cacioppi <peter.cacioppi@gmail.com> - 2014-11-11 11:40 -0800
  Re: I love assert Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-11-12 07:03 +1100
    Re: I love assert Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-11-11 21:43 +0000
  Re: I love assert Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-11-11 12:08 -0800
  Re: I love assert Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@technologyhighland.invalid> - 2014-11-11 12:20 -0800
  Re: I love assert Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-11-11 20:34 +0000
  Re: I love assert TP <wingusr@gmail.com> - 2014-11-11 12:57 -0800
  Re: I love assert Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-11-11 17:34 -0500
  Re: I love assert Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-11-12 09:52 +1100
  Re: I love assert Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-11-11 17:03 -0600
  Re: I love assert Peter Cacioppi <peter.cacioppi@gmail.com> - 2014-11-11 15:02 -0800
  Re: I love assert Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-11-11 15:38 -0800
  Re: I love assert Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> - 2014-11-11 17:56 -0800
  Re: I love assert Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-11-12 13:21 +1100
  Re: I love assert Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-11-12 13:35 +1100
    Re: I love assert Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-11-12 14:10 +0000
  Re: I love assert Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-11-12 13:44 +1100
    Re: I love assert wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-11-11 23:14 -0800
  Re: I love assert Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-11-12 03:29 -0500
  Re: I love assert Anton <anton.schattenfeld@gmail.com> - 2014-11-12 12:53 -0800
    Re: I love assert Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-11-12 23:41 +0200
      Re: I love assert Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-11-12 13:52 -0800
        Re: I love assert Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-11-12 23:56 +0200
          Re: I love assert Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-11-12 15:04 -0700
            Re: I love assert Anton <anschatten@gmail.com> - 2014-11-12 14:13 -0800
              Re: I love assert Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-11-12 15:41 -0700
                Re: I love assert Anton <anschatten@gmail.com> - 2014-11-12 14:48 -0800
                Re: I love assert Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-11-13 01:01 +0200
                Re: I love assert Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-11-15 10:40 +1100
                Re: I love assert Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-11-15 02:12 +0200
                Re: I love assert Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-11-15 12:04 +1100
                Re: I love assert Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-11-15 03:30 +0200
                Re: I love assert Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-11-15 12:48 +1100
                Re: I love assert Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-11-14 20:14 -0600
                Re: I love assert Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-11-15 13:16 +1100
                Re: I love assert albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-11-29 17:35 +0000
                Re: I love assert Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-11-12 16:02 -0700
                Re: I love assert Anton <anschatten@gmail.com> - 2014-11-12 15:43 -0800
                Re: I love assert Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-11-13 10:10 +1100
                Re: I love assert Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-11-13 01:23 +0200
                Re: I love assert Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-11-13 10:27 +1100
                Re: I love assert Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-11-13 01:31 +0200
              Re: I love assert Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-11-12 14:47 -0800
                Re: I love assert Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-11-14 22:37 +1100
                Re: I love assert Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-11-14 09:40 -0700
          Re: I love assert Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-11-12 15:07 -0700
            Re: I love assert Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-11-13 00:47 +0200
              Re: I love assert Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-11-12 14:56 -0800
              Re: I love assert Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-11-13 09:58 +1100
              Re: I love assert Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-11-12 16:05 -0700
                Re: I love assert Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-11-13 01:12 +0200
              Re: I love assert Lie Ryan <lie.1296@gmail.com> - 2014-11-14 01:09 +1100
        Re: I love assert Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-11-14 22:33 +1100
          Re: I love assert Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-11-14 10:18 -0800
            Re: I love assert Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-11-14 21:12 +0200
              Re: I love assert Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-11-14 12:41 -0800
                Re: I love assert Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-11-14 22:50 +0200
            Re: I love assert Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-11-15 13:58 +1100
              Re: I love assert Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-11-14 20:09 -0800
                Re: I love assert Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-11-17 13:09 +1100
                Re: I love assert Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-11-16 19:25 -0800
      Re: I love assert Anton <anschatten@gmail.com> - 2014-11-12 14:00 -0800
        Re: I love assert Anton <anschatten@gmail.com> - 2014-11-12 14:04 -0800
          Re: I love assert Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-11-13 00:34 +0200
    Re: I love assert Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-11-13 09:43 +1100
  Re: I love assert Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-11-14 22:15 +1100
  Re: I love assert Richard Riehle <rriehle@itu.edu> - 2014-11-14 14:09 -0800
    Decorators (was: Re: I love assert) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-11-15 00:18 +0200
      Re: Decorators Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-11-14 22:37 +0000
        Re: Decorators Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-11-15 00:47 +0200
      Re: Decorators (was: Re: I love assert) Richard Riehle <rriehle@itu.edu> - 2014-11-14 18:19 -0800
        Re: Decorators (was: Re: I love assert) Mayank Tripathi <oquanox@gmail.com> - 2014-11-15 02:36 +0000
        Re: Decorators (was: Re: I love assert) Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-11-14 20:30 -0600
          Re: Decorators Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-11-15 09:00 +0200
            Re: Decorators Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-11-15 15:32 +0000
        Re: Decorators (was: Re: I love assert) Richard Riehle <rriehle@itu.edu> - 2014-11-14 23:42 -0800
        Re: Decorators Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-11-15 13:12 +0000
          Re: Decorators Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-11-15 15:24 +0200
            Re: Decorators Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-11-15 15:28 -0500
        Re: Decorators (was: Re: I love assert) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-11-16 02:39 +1100
  Re: I love assert TP <wingusr@gmail.com> - 2014-11-27 01:22 -0800
    Re: I love assert alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-11-27 09:59 +0000
      Re: I love assert Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-11-29 12:30 +1100
        Re: I love assert MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-11-29 02:56 +0000
          Re: I love assert Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-11-29 20:31 +1100
            Re: I love assert Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-11-29 21:40 +1100
            Re: I love assert MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-11-29 19:49 +0000
        Re: I love assert Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-11-29 14:02 +1100
        Re: I love assert Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-11-29 14:33 -0800
          Re: I love assert Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-11-30 19:18 +1100
            Re: I love assert Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-11-30 11:34 -0800

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