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Re: Teaching Java, teaching what?

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On 12/15/2013 06:20 AM, Leif Roar Moldskred wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>
>> You want to show something that is OO.
>
> For an introductory course in programming, I'm not so sure you do.
> (Of course, if you use Java as the language you pretty much have
> to, but then I'm not sold on Java as a good choice for teaching
> programming.)
>
> OO is all about "programming in the large." It's about how to
> structure the code to make a large program manageable and
> understandable.
>
> Students in an introductory course, though, are still struggling
> with "programming in the small" :  what a variable is, how to
> track program flow, loops and conditionals, what a method or
> functional call is, call-by-reference vs. call-by-value,
> arrays and data structures, the idea of libraries and using
> them, what compilation is, I/O, how to debug and all that
> other jazz that seasoned programmers barely even think about.
>
> I think introducing OO concept at this stage (except possibly
> as a final "this is where you go from here" at the very end)
> would just be so much magical "because that's just how it is"
> that'd only serve to distract and confuse the students from
> those core concept they really need to focus on.
>
More than once I've noted how much Java programming is effectively 
procedural [1]. I've usually made these comments as a critique, insofar 
as someone is claiming to be leveraging objects but really isn't. The 
flip side of this criticism is that large portions of an OO program are 
necessarily procedural, and there's nothing wrong with that if it's 
intentional and justified.

Sticking to Java, we all know that a main() in a "Main" class is much 
less OO than it is procedural, and a whole bunch of methods in a typical 
Java program are effectively procedural too. One can argue - I certainly 
have - that there is often way too much procedural in Java apps, and OO 
possibilities are not being leveraged, but that doesn't detract from the 
fact that judicious use of procedural in a Java program is perfectly 
acceptable. In a typical OO app many of our business logic methods are 
really procedures: data-context-interaction (DCI) formalizes this concept.

Having said that, it strikes me that if you're teaching programming with 
an OO-capable language, that it's sort of hard to avoid OO, and probably 
not desirable. I wouldn't leave it to a final "this is where you go from 
here", is what I'm saying. :-) The first time you use a non-primitive 
datatype and call a String method, say, or do something with a List or a 
Map, I don't know how you avoid discussing either objects or program 
flow, honestly. And in some depth, besides.

AHS
-- 
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign:
that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
-- Jonathan Swift

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Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-09 13:20 +0100
  Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-09 16:17 +0100
    Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-09 20:02 -0500
      Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-10 11:56 +0100
        Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? lipska the kat <"lipskathekat at yahoo dot co dot uk"> - 2013-12-10 12:07 +0000
          Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-10 13:39 +0100
            Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? lipska the kat <"lipskathekat at yahoo dot co dot uk"> - 2013-12-10 12:56 +0000
              Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-10 14:38 +0100
          Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-14 20:05 -0500
        Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-14 19:58 -0500
          Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-12-15 03:49 +0100
          Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-15 11:29 +0100
            Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? lipska the kat <"lipskathekat at yahoo dot co dot uk"> - 2013-12-15 10:55 +0000
          Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-15 16:54 -0400
  Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-09 12:02 -0400
    Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-12-09 21:49 +0000
    Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-09 20:11 -0500
      Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-12-09 17:58 -0800
      Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-10 10:22 -0400
        Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-10 11:02 -0500
        Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-10 12:47 -0400
          Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-14 18:04 -0500
            Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-15 16:58 -0400
              Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-15 16:36 -0500
                Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-15 18:17 -0500
        Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-14 17:59 -0500
          Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2013-12-15 04:20 -0600
            Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-15 12:23 +0100
            Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-15 10:00 -0500
            Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-16 10:28 -0400
          Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-15 21:32 -0400

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