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Re: Teaching Java, teaching what?

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On 12/14/2013 06:59 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/10/2013 9:22 AM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>> On 12/09/2013 09:11 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 12/9/2013 11:02 AM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>>>> But I'm not convinced you can accomplish more by doing "first
>>>> steps with Swing". The issue here may be that 30 hours isn't
>>>> enough...
>>>
>>> If kept simple with JLabel, JTextField, JButton etc. I think they
>>> can make something work *and* understand what they are doing.
>>
>> I'm not being combative here, but in the big scheme of things, that
>> knowledge will help the students how exactly?
>
> Writing some code and being able to see it work without it appearing
> to be black magic is learning to program.

I keep on coming back to the 30 hours timeframe (12+18) posited by 
Stefan. I'm not convinced that most novice students are going to get 
anything more from a simple GUI other than some transitory thrill that 
it's doable without years of study.

>>                                                Apart from the top
>> students, who will probably get on with any approach to OOP, everyone
>> else - at best - will understand how to write simple Swing apps: some
>> will eventually (after further study) grasp the larger principles, but
>> many will not.
>
> You want to show something that is OO.
>
> You need input and output preferably something that looks
> pre-1990.
>
> Swing delivers both.

I suspect you meant *post* 1990. :-)

>>>>    but I myself have a gut feeling that you'd do better with a
>>>> servlet approach.
>>>
>>> I am not sold on that.
>>
>> For what it's worth, I'm not sold on it either. To phrase things
>> differently, *if* you had enough time to do a decent intro to core Java
>> + enough time to introduce either Swing or servlets, I'd prefer
>> servlets. I just don't think 30 hours is enough to do either.
>
> Servlets would be more useful job wise.
>
> But you would need more time to teach servlets than to teach Swing.
>
> Server, HTML and other useful topics that in this context just
> distracts from the topic.

I am prepared to concede that adequate introductions to those topics 
exceeds 30 hours in a semester time frame. I still think that it's 
unlikely that you'll squeeze Swing in, in that amount of time, either.

You surely can't *teach* Swing _and_ do an intro to OO in just 30 hours. 
You can throw a Swing facade out there about 15-20 hours into it, and 
use that as some kind of I/O example, but is that better than dispensing 
with a GUI entirely? I stand to be convinced.

>>>> For a barebones first approach, I think we can over-emphasize the
>>>> importance of GUIs (web or desktop) as being what beginners expect to
>>>> see, or what they feel comfortable with. I'm probably dating myself
>>>> here, but back in the '70's when I learned programming with FORTRAN 66
>>>> and FORTRAN 77, I (and most of my peers) grokked program output to
>>>> printer or tape, and program input from similar sources. It's also not
>>>> difficult to relate a console input prompt to an HTML text input box -
>>>> students understand that what matters is what you do with the input,
>>>> not
>>>> so much how you got it.
>>>>
>>>> Let me put something else out there. 30 hours is a short semester if we
>>>> suppose three 1-hour classes per week. Is it even realistic to try and
>>>> introduce any kind of GUI (Swing, JavaFX, servlets with simple HTML
>>>> etc)
>>>> in 30 hours? Perhaps console output is all you should shoot for.
>>>
>>> Console apps would certainly be better in the sense that there are even
>>> less context to learn.
>>>
>>> The problem here is probably more in the area of motivation. A console
>>> app does not look fancy and that could be demotivating.
>>>
>>> Arne
>>>
>>
>> I think this is where the teacher needs to step up and be on their game.
>> If I were teaching a genuine intro class where practically everyone was
>> a novice [1], and let's assume it was 30 hours over a semester, and the
>> working language was Java, I think I'd spend the first 2 or 3 hours
>> providing context, without diving into code. Pseudocode maybe, on a
>> chalkboard or whiteboard, but no actual code for the first few sessions.
>>
>> Part of what you'd cover is a basic discussion of I/O - how do you talk
>> to a program. Properly done, I think most students would get that I/O
>> to/from a console, or to/from a file, is just as much first class as I/O
>> through a GUI. And I think many would then understand that the true
>> program lies behind the interface.
>
> You and I may find a console intuitive.
>
> But that is not what is common today.
>
> As an example look at the signing thread. The OP had found a nice
> guy telling what command to use. But the explanation could just as
> well had been written in Chinese - the OP was not thinking that way
> at all. And he is not alone. It may be unfortunately that the socalled
> digital generation in many ways know less about computers than the
> previous generation, but that is how it is.
>
> Arne
>
>
Give people credit, Arne. In any case, this is actually Stefan's call - 
and I suppose to some extent the call of the folks who are having him 
teach this course. Is he supposed to teach to the small percentage of 
newbies that want to become professional programmers, or is it incumbent 
on him to satisfy a wider clientele? If it was just the former group, 
I'd have no hesitation in being somewhat brutal with the curriculum, and 
seeing who can cut it. If it's the latter, maybe I'd concoct a pretty 
little Swing GUI.

AHS

-- 
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign:
that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
-- Jonathan Swift

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Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-09 13:20 +0100
  Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-09 16:17 +0100
    Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-09 20:02 -0500
      Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-10 11:56 +0100
        Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? lipska the kat <"lipskathekat at yahoo dot co dot uk"> - 2013-12-10 12:07 +0000
          Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-10 13:39 +0100
            Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? lipska the kat <"lipskathekat at yahoo dot co dot uk"> - 2013-12-10 12:56 +0000
              Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-10 14:38 +0100
          Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-14 20:05 -0500
        Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-14 19:58 -0500
          Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-12-15 03:49 +0100
          Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-15 11:29 +0100
            Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? lipska the kat <"lipskathekat at yahoo dot co dot uk"> - 2013-12-15 10:55 +0000
          Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-15 16:54 -0400
  Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-09 12:02 -0400
    Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-12-09 21:49 +0000
    Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-09 20:11 -0500
      Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-12-09 17:58 -0800
      Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-10 10:22 -0400
        Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-10 11:02 -0500
        Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-10 12:47 -0400
          Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-14 18:04 -0500
            Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-15 16:58 -0400
              Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-15 16:36 -0500
                Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-15 18:17 -0500
        Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-14 17:59 -0500
          Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2013-12-15 04:20 -0600
            Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-15 12:23 +0100
            Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-15 10:00 -0500
            Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-16 10:28 -0400
          Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-15 21:32 -0400

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