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Re: Java blunders

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From Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid>
Newsgroups comp.lang.java.programmer
Subject Re: Java blunders
Date Wed, 23 Jul 2014 22:11:35 -0500
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On 7/23/2014 8:34 PM, Arne VajhĂžj wrote:
> On 7/22/2014 10:02 PM, Joshua Cranmer 🐧 wrote:
>> C. On the balance, I think matching curly braces is superior to
>> begin/end-ish constructs. If you're spending too much time trying to
>> figure out where you have an extra or a missing curly brace, then, quite
>> frankly, your IDE is defective. My IDE points out matching curly braces
>> and can even fold them based on appropriate matching, and it has been
>> able to do so since before Java was invented. Possibly since before I
>> was born, even.
>
> To me having an IDE make up for something missing in the
> language does not excuse that the feature is missing.
>
> An IDE is just not always present when reading code.
>
> (and I think the readability is more of a problem than
> the fixing one too few or one too many problems)

If you're arguing that begin/end is superior for readability... it's 
not. It's no better, and could potentially be worse.

1. If you have deep nesting, it's almost certainly going to be mostly or 
all if statements at the bottom. Loops don't nest deep in practice (you 
could make a loop nest larger than 3 a compiler error and almost all 
production code would still compile). So distinguishing between all the 
different kinds of classes of block structures buys you very little, and 
nothing at all in the worst classes.

2. Close structures are less well-coordinated among different languages. 
Is it end, endif, end if, or fi?

3. When you do scans of code, you're almost certainly not looking for 
braces or begin/end-style keywords. You're looking at the indentation 
level primarily. The signal for a termination of a block, then, is a 
mostly-empty line that contains the close construct at the appropriate 
indentation level. end doesn't help you there.

4. The smaller '}' typing hides what is effectively not semantically 
valuable text, given the preference for indentation level instead. 
Seeing a word like 'end' means you have to parse it to make sure you can 
ignore it. This effect is probably very small and may not actually exist.

5. It's less typing. Not a strong argument, but given no strong argument 
for an end-like construct in the first place (see above), it does help 
tip the balance if you're undecided.


-- 
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not 
tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth

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Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-22 11:41 -0700
  Re: Java blunders Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte.net> - 2014-07-22 21:12 +0200
    Re: Java blunders Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-22 19:46 -0400
      Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 04:14 -0700
  Re: Java blunders Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2014-07-22 23:47 +0200
    Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 04:23 -0700
      Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-23 12:32 +0000
        Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-23 08:55 -0400
          Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 06:21 -0700
        Re: Java blunders Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-23 19:53 -0400
          Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 18:49 -0700
      Re: Java blunders Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-23 19:52 -0400
  Re: Java blunders Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-22 19:44 -0400
    Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 04:27 -0700
      Re: Java blunders Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-23 19:55 -0400
        Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 18:53 -0700
          Re: Java blunders Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2014-07-24 11:24 +0200
            Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-25 06:34 -0700
          Re: Java blunders Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-24 19:31 -0400
            Re: Java blunders Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2014-07-25 13:22 -0700
              Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-25 17:17 -0400
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-25 23:12 +0000
                Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-26 09:06 -0700
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-26 20:11 +0000
                Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-26 17:27 -0400
                Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-27 10:49 -0700
                Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-27 10:10 -0700
                Re: Java blunders Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2014-07-28 13:53 -0700
                Re: Java blunders Stuart <DerTopper@web.de> - 2014-07-30 08:05 +0200
                Re: Java blunders Sebastian <news@seyweiler.dyndns.org> - 2014-07-30 11:12 +0200
                Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-27 10:13 -0700
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-27 18:28 +0000
                Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-27 14:46 -0400
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-27 21:18 +0000
                Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-27 18:10 -0400
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-28 01:25 +0000
                Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-28 08:02 -0400
                Re: Java blunders Mike Amling <mamling@chaff.us> - 2014-07-31 13:26 -0500
                Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-31 14:48 -0400
                Re: Java blunders "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-07-28 13:22 +0100
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-28 12:52 +0000
                Re: Java blunders Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2014-07-28 23:38 +0200
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-28 23:17 +0000
                Re: Java blunders Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-07-29 13:34 +0200
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-29 12:45 +0000
                Re: Java blunders Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-07-29 17:10 +0200
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-29 16:29 +0000
                Re: Java blunders lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-07-29 20:15 +0100
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-29 22:02 +0000
                Re: Java blunders Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-07-29 22:43 +0200
                Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-29 22:10 +0000
                Re: Java blunders Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2014-07-27 19:18 -0500
                Re: Java blunders Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2014-07-28 13:54 -0700
                Re: Java blunders Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-31 23:07 -0400
                Re: Java blunders James Hostick <james.hostick@gmail.com> - 2014-08-01 22:10 -0700
            Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-26 08:31 -0700
              Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-26 21:04 +0000
                Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-27 10:51 -0700
                Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-28 08:50 -0700
                Re: Java blunders Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2014-07-28 23:42 +0200
              Re: Java blunders Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-31 23:04 -0400
          Re: Java blunders Josip Almasi <joe@vrspace.org> - 2014-07-28 22:23 +0200
            Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-28 16:39 -0400
              Re: Java blunders Josip Almasi <joe@vrspace.org> - 2014-07-29 00:11 +0200
              Re: Java blunders Jukka Lahtinen <jtfjdehf@hotmail.com.invalid> - 2014-07-30 12:07 +0300
                Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-30 08:05 -0400
    Re: Java blunders Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2014-07-25 01:34 +0200
      Re: Java blunders Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-24 19:43 -0400
  Re: Java blunders Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2014-07-22 21:02 -0500
    Re: Java blunders Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@huldreskog.lan> - 2014-07-23 02:01 -0500
      Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 18:58 -0700
      Re: Java blunders thinbluernime <thinbluernime3@gmail.com> - 2014-07-25 03:55 +0000
        Re: Java blunders Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@huldreskog.lan> - 2014-07-25 00:32 -0500
          Re: Java blunders thinbluernime <thinbluernime3@gmail.com> - 2014-07-26 07:28 +0000
            Re: Java blunders "Gavino" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-07-26 19:43 +0200
        Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-25 06:36 -0700
          Re: Java blunders "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-07-25 15:47 +0100
            Re: Java blunders David Postill <david.postill@gmail.com> - 2014-07-25 18:29 +0200
            Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-26 09:27 -0700
        Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-25 06:37 -0700
    Re: Java blunders Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2014-07-23 13:17 +0200
      Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 06:27 -0700
    Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 04:44 -0700
      Re: Java blunders Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-07-23 16:23 +0200
        Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-23 12:02 -0400
          Re: Java blunders Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-07-24 11:37 +0200
            Re: Java blunders Josip Almasi <joe@vrspace.org> - 2014-07-28 22:37 +0200
        Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 09:33 -0700
          Re: Java blunders thinbluernime <thinbluernime3@gmail.com> - 2014-07-25 03:57 +0000
        Re: Java blunders Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-23 21:38 -0400
          Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 18:59 -0700
            Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-24 07:33 +0000
          Re: Java blunders Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-07-24 11:47 +0200
            Re: Java blunders Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-24 19:34 -0400
              Re: Java blunders Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-07-25 08:48 +0200
                Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-25 08:07 -0400
                Re: Java blunders "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-07-25 13:54 +0100
                Re: Java blunders Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-31 22:53 -0400
            Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-25 07:04 -0700
        Re: Java blunders Josip Almasi <joe@vrspace.org> - 2014-07-28 22:01 +0200
      Re: Java blunders Josip Almasi <joe@vrspace.org> - 2014-07-28 21:56 +0200
    Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 06:28 -0700
      Re: Java blunders Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2014-07-23 08:33 -0500
    Re: Java blunders Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-23 21:34 -0400
      Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-23 19:06 -0700
      Re: Java blunders Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2014-07-23 22:11 -0500
        Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-24 07:36 +0000
          Re: Java blunders Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-24 19:39 -0400
            Re: Java blunders "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-07-25 13:40 +0100
        Re: Java blunders Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-24 19:38 -0400
          Re: Java blunders Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2014-07-25 13:30 -0700
  Re: Java blunders taqmcg@gmail.com - 2014-07-23 11:26 -0700
    Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-23 15:14 -0400
      Re: Java blunders thinbluernime <thinbluernime3@gmail.com> - 2014-07-25 04:07 +0000
        Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-07-25 08:35 -0400
          Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-26 09:41 -0700
        Re: Java blunders Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2014-08-03 16:41 +0200
          Re: Java blunders Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2014-08-03 11:31 -0400
    Re: Java blunders Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2014-07-23 22:41 -0500
      Re: Java blunders taqmcg@gmail.com - 2014-07-24 10:09 -0700
        Re: Java blunders "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-07-25 13:22 +0100
        Re: Java blunders Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2014-07-25 20:34 -0500
          Re: Java blunders "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-07-28 13:33 +0100
            Re: Java blunders Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2014-07-28 08:35 -0500
        Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-26 09:44 -0700
          Re: Java blunders Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-26 23:36 +0000
  Re: Java blunders Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2014-07-23 20:48 -0700
    Re: Java blunders Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-07-24 11:56 +0200
      Re: Java blunders Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-07-24 16:07 +0200
        Re: Java blunders Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2014-07-25 13:38 -0700
          Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-26 10:02 -0700
    Re: Java blunders Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-24 19:29 -0400
      Re: Java blunders Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2014-07-25 13:45 -0700
    Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-26 10:53 -0700
  Re: Java blunders Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2014-07-25 01:28 +0200
  Re: Java blunders "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-07-25 14:16 +0100
  Re: Java blunders Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2014-07-25 17:39 +0200
  Re: Java blunders Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-26 16:21 -0700
  Re: Java blunders Josip Almasi <joe@vrspace.org> - 2014-07-28 23:59 +0200
    Re: Java blunders Josip Almasi <joe@vrspace.org> - 2014-07-29 00:41 +0200
      Re: Java blunders Josip Almasi <joe@vrspace.org> - 2014-07-29 01:54 +0200
    Re: Java blunders Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-31 22:38 -0400
    Re: Java blunders Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-31 22:39 -0400
  Re: Java blunders w.tom.adams@gmail.com - 2014-07-30 07:57 -0700
    Re: Java blunders Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2014-07-30 10:22 -0500

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