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Editor for Forth

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  Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-10 17:07 -0500
    Re: Editor for Forth Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-05-10 15:47 -0700
      Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-10 18:52 -0500
    Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-10 19:06 -0400
      Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-10 19:05 -0500
        Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-10 20:42 -0400
          Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-10 19:59 -0500
            Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-10 21:11 -0400
    Re: Editor for Forth Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-10 17:36 -0700
      Re: Editor for Forth Mark C <mdcorbin@googlemail.com> - 2017-05-14 07:33 -0700
    Re: Editor for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-05-10 20:39 -0700
      Re: Editor for Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-05-11 07:09 +0200
        Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-11 00:57 -0500
          Re: Editor for Forth Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 09:15 +0300
            Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-11 01:35 -0500
              Re: Editor for Forth Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 09:49 +0300
        Re: Editor for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-05-10 23:42 -0700
          Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-11 01:53 -0500
            Re: Editor for Forth Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 09:59 +0300
            Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 04:32 -0400
              Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-11 05:52 -0500
                Re: Editor for Forth Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 14:07 +0300
                  Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-11 07:10 -0500
                Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 14:10 -0400
      Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-11 00:15 -0500
        Re: Editor for Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-05-11 07:53 +0200
          Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-11 01:20 -0500
        Re: Editor for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-05-10 23:44 -0700
          Re: Editor for Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-05-11 08:57 +0200
        Re: Editor for Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-11 04:34 -0500
          Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-11 06:29 -0500
            Re: Editor for Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-11 07:05 -0500
            Re: Editor for Forth Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-12 08:05 -0700
              Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-12 19:34 -0500
                Re: Editor for Forth Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-12 18:21 -0700
                  Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-12 21:53 -0500
                    Re: Editor for Forth Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-12 23:37 -0700
                      Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-13 02:50 -0500
                        Re: Editor for Forth Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-15 00:11 -0700
          Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 14:41 -0400
            Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-11 15:44 -0500
              Re: Editor for Forth Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-05-12 10:52 +0300
            Re: Editor for Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-12 02:28 -0500
              Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-12 12:43 -0400
                Re: Editor for Forth Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-05-12 10:17 -0700
                  Re: Editor for Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-13 04:39 -0500
      Re: Editor for Forth Jan Coombs <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com> - 2017-05-11 08:33 +0100
    Re: Editor for Forth Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 07:09 +0300
      Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-11 00:22 -0500
        Re: Editor for Forth Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 08:35 +0300
        Re: Editor for Forth JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2017-05-11 00:46 -0700
          Re: Editor for Forth JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2017-05-11 00:50 -0700
    Re: Editor for Forth humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 00:32 -0700
    Re: Editor for Forth stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-05-11 08:03 +0000
    Re: Editor for Forth Mark C <mdcorbin@googlemail.com> - 2017-05-12 04:50 -0700
      Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-12 12:54 -0400
        Re: Editor for Forth Mark C <mdcorbin@googlemail.com> - 2017-05-14 07:09 -0700
          Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 13:48 -0400
            Re: Editor for Forth Mark C <mdcorbin@googlemail.com> - 2017-05-14 11:10 -0700
          Re: Editor for Forth peter.m.falth@gmail.com - 2017-05-14 14:28 -0700
            Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 23:02 -0400
              Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-15 00:03 -0500
              Re: Editor for Forth peter.m.falth@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 13:33 -0700
    Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-12 19:35 -0500
      Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-12 21:16 -0400
      Re: Editor for Forth Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-12 22:53 -0700
        Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 02:51 -0400
          Re: Editor for Forth Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 00:02 -0700
            Re: Editor for Forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-13 13:36 +0200
        Re: Editor for Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-05-13 09:09 +0200
        Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-13 02:41 -0500
          Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 10:31 -0400
    Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-20 16:43 -0500
      Re: Editor for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-05-20 15:32 -0700
        Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-20 18:57 -0400
          Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-20 18:16 -0500
            Re: Editor for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-05-20 16:40 -0700
              Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-20 22:04 -0400
                Re: Editor for Forth Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-05-21 07:04 +0300
          Re: Editor for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-21 06:53 +0000
            Re: Editor for Forth Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-05-21 10:24 +0300
              Re: Editor for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-21 14:54 +0000
            Re: Editor for Forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-21 20:11 +0200
              Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-21 14:23 -0400
            Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-21 13:23 -0500
        Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-20 18:15 -0500
        Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-20 18:33 -0500

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#59237

On 5/14/2017 5:28 PM, peter.m.falth@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, 14 May 2017 16:09:14 UTC+2, Mark C  wrote:
>> On Friday, 12 May 2017 17:54:03 UTC+1, rickman  wrote:
>>> On 5/12/2017 7:50 AM, Mark C wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, 10 May 2017 23:07:35 UTC+1, Cecil - k5nwa  wrote:
>>>>> Which programmers editor would be recommended for use with Forth? I
>>>>>  would prefer something free or at least under $100 as my funds are
>>>>>  rather limited.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would like a programmers editor with you basic features;
>>>>>
>>>>> Able to open more than one file at a time. Print listings with line
>>>>> numbers. Understand Forth so it can autocomplete structures such as
>>>>> IF etc. Be able to use color to identify Forth Words, numbers,
>>>>> etc. If I have to pay money then I would like it to know how to
>>>>> interface to at least VFX, and SwiftForth.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are some free programmer editors that can take a file to
>>>>> customize it to a language any suitable for Forth use?
>>>>>
>>>>> Any thoughts or preferences?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Cecil - k5nwa
>>>>
>>>> I've written Forth syntax highlighters for gedit, jEdit, UltraEdit
>>>> and Kate. They should be part of their respective packages - if not,
>>>> they are available here:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.dibsco.co.uk/forth/syntax/gedit
>>>>
>>>> The file extension '.4th' is used by most of them (the gedit
>>>> developers specifically asked me to remove '.fs' as it clashed with
>>>> Fortran).
>>>>
>>>> I have another one in development for SciTE/Scintilla, but it seems
>>>> to be taking me an eternity to get round to finishing it :-)
>>>
>>> I typically use '.f' for forth source files.  Is that also used for
>>> Fortran?
>>
>> The extension '.f' is used for Fortran and '.fs' is used for FSharp. I've found that the safest way to avoid clashes is to use '.4th' and '.forth'.
>>
>>>
>>> I'm having some problems getting up the learning curve with SciTE.  Can
>>> you point me to any teaching materials?  I've found info on the
>>> properties files, but it is written to explain the commands rather than
>>> showing how to do various things.  I'm having trouble controlling the
>>> font used and the mono/proportional flag.  Is there an explanation of
>>> how this works?  Does setting the monospace feature only display the
>>> font.monospace for all items while having it off allows multiple type
>>> faces to be used?  Any idea what the list of type faces is?  I'd like to
>>> explore alternate monospaced fonts.  Or maybe I'm using tabs incorrectly?
>>
>> I have been doing quite a bit of work with SciTE, but haven't looked at the fonts at all.
>>
>> I should point out that the Forth highlighter for SciTE doesn't work by default. It won't match any keywords at all, so almost everything is highlighted as 'Idenitifer' (which seems to be the default state for anything that is not recognised). The Forth lexer converts the incoming text to lowercase, but the keywords in the forth.properties file are all in uppercase - so they never match. You can edit forth.properties and convert the keywords to lowercase, but there are still other issues with the highlighting:
>>
>> 	- words starting with characters other than a-z are not highlighted correctly.
>> 	- floating point numbers are not highlighted correct (as per the ANS-94 regex definition)
>>
>> It is also worth noting that:
>>
>> 	- it highlights control words separately, which doesn't appear to be a common approach across other language highlighters that I have looked at.
>> 	- it provides highlighting for an 'unknown' dialect of Forth.
>> 	- it doesn't support code folding.
>>
>> The new version that I am currently working on supports the ANS-94 standard, including all wordsets, and also provides code folding. I have looked at implementing word autocompletion, but I'm not sure whether it will operate correctly. Most syntax highlighting systems that I have looked at are much friendlier to a C-style syntax and are tricky to configure for use with a more free-form language like Forth.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Mark
>
> I have rewritten the forth lexer in SciTe to support context sensitive
> coloring. I have used this for many years and really like it.
> I did look at implementing folding but found that I would not use it.
>
> As the lexer is written in C++ it is quite easy to modify and customize
> to your needs. Even for a non C++ programmer like me!
>
> If you like a copy (source or compiled) please tell me

Sure, you will need to give me explicit instructions on how to use it. 
I'm running Windows 8 presently.

-- 

Rick C

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#59246

On 5/14/2017 10:02 PM, rickman wrote:
> On 5/14/2017 5:28 PM, peter.m.falth@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, 14 May 2017 16:09:14 UTC+2, Mark C  wrote:
>>> On Friday, 12 May 2017 17:54:03 UTC+1, rickman  wrote:
>>>> On 5/12/2017 7:50 AM, Mark C wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, 10 May 2017 23:07:35 UTC+1, Cecil - k5nwa  wrote:
>>>>>> Which programmers editor would be recommended for use with Forth? I
>>>>>>  would prefer something free or at least under $100 as my funds are
>>>>>>  rather limited.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would like a programmers editor with you basic features;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Able to open more than one file at a time. Print listings with line
>>>>>> numbers. Understand Forth so it can autocomplete structures such as
>>>>>> IF etc. Be able to use color to identify Forth Words, numbers,
>>>>>> etc. If I have to pay money then I would like it to know how to
>>>>>> interface to at least VFX, and SwiftForth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are some free programmer editors that can take a file to
>>>>>> customize it to a language any suitable for Forth use?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any thoughts or preferences?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- Cecil - k5nwa
>>>>>
>>>>> I've written Forth syntax highlighters for gedit, jEdit, UltraEdit
>>>>> and Kate. They should be part of their respective packages - if not,
>>>>> they are available here:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.dibsco.co.uk/forth/syntax/gedit
>>>>>
>>>>> The file extension '.4th' is used by most of them (the gedit
>>>>> developers specifically asked me to remove '.fs' as it clashed with
>>>>> Fortran).
>>>>>
>>>>> I have another one in development for SciTE/Scintilla, but it seems
>>>>> to be taking me an eternity to get round to finishing it :-)
>>>>
>>>> I typically use '.f' for forth source files.  Is that also used for
>>>> Fortran?
>>>
>>> The extension '.f' is used for Fortran and '.fs' is used for FSharp. 
>>> I've found that the safest way to avoid clashes is to use '.4th' and 
>>> '.forth'.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm having some problems getting up the learning curve with SciTE.  Can
>>>> you point me to any teaching materials?  I've found info on the
>>>> properties files, but it is written to explain the commands rather than
>>>> showing how to do various things.  I'm having trouble controlling the
>>>> font used and the mono/proportional flag.  Is there an explanation of
>>>> how this works?  Does setting the monospace feature only display the
>>>> font.monospace for all items while having it off allows multiple type
>>>> faces to be used?  Any idea what the list of type faces is?  I'd 
>>>> like to
>>>> explore alternate monospaced fonts.  Or maybe I'm using tabs 
>>>> incorrectly?
>>>
>>> I have been doing quite a bit of work with SciTE, but haven't looked 
>>> at the fonts at all.
>>>
>>> I should point out that the Forth highlighter for SciTE doesn't work 
>>> by default. It won't match any keywords at all, so almost everything 
>>> is highlighted as 'Idenitifer' (which seems to be the default state 
>>> for anything that is not recognised). The Forth lexer converts the 
>>> incoming text to lowercase, but the keywords in the forth.properties 
>>> file are all in uppercase - so they never match. You can edit 
>>> forth.properties and convert the keywords to lowercase, but there are 
>>> still other issues with the highlighting:
>>>
>>>     - words starting with characters other than a-z are not 
>>> highlighted correctly.
>>>     - floating point numbers are not highlighted correct (as per the 
>>> ANS-94 regex definition)
>>>
>>> It is also worth noting that:
>>>
>>>     - it highlights control words separately, which doesn't appear to 
>>> be a common approach across other language highlighters that I have 
>>> looked at.
>>>     - it provides highlighting for an 'unknown' dialect of Forth.
>>>     - it doesn't support code folding.
>>>
>>> The new version that I am currently working on supports the ANS-94 
>>> standard, including all wordsets, and also provides code folding. I 
>>> have looked at implementing word autocompletion, but I'm not sure 
>>> whether it will operate correctly. Most syntax highlighting systems 
>>> that I have looked at are much friendlier to a C-style syntax and are 
>>> tricky to configure for use with a more free-form language like Forth.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Mark
>>
>> I have rewritten the forth lexer in SciTe to support context sensitive
>> coloring. I have used this for many years and really like it.
>> I did look at implementing folding but found that I would not use it.
>>
>> As the lexer is written in C++ it is quite easy to modify and customize
>> to your needs. Even for a non C++ programmer like me!
>>
>> If you like a copy (source or compiled) please tell me
> 
> Sure, you will need to give me explicit instructions on how to use it. 
> I'm running Windows 8 presently.
> 
I would like a copy also to use when testing the editors.


-- 
Cecil - k5nwa

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#59330

On Monday, 15 May 2017 05:03:05 UTC+2, rickman  wrote:
> On 5/14/2017 5:28 PM, peter.m.falth@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, 14 May 2017 16:09:14 UTC+2, Mark C  wrote:
> >> On Friday, 12 May 2017 17:54:03 UTC+1, rickman  wrote:
> >>> On 5/12/2017 7:50 AM, Mark C wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, 10 May 2017 23:07:35 UTC+1, Cecil - k5nwa  wrote:
> >>>>> Which programmers editor would be recommended for use with Forth? I
> >>>>>  would prefer something free or at least under $100 as my funds are
> >>>>>  rather limited.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would like a programmers editor with you basic features;
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Able to open more than one file at a time. Print listings with line
> >>>>> numbers. Understand Forth so it can autocomplete structures such as
> >>>>> IF etc. Be able to use color to identify Forth Words, numbers,
> >>>>> etc. If I have to pay money then I would like it to know how to
> >>>>> interface to at least VFX, and SwiftForth.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There are some free programmer editors that can take a file to
> >>>>> customize it to a language any suitable for Forth use?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Any thoughts or preferences?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -- Cecil - k5nwa
> >>>>
> >>>> I've written Forth syntax highlighters for gedit, jEdit, UltraEdit
> >>>> and Kate. They should be part of their respective packages - if not,
> >>>> they are available here:
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.dibsco.co.uk/forth/syntax/gedit
> >>>>
> >>>> The file extension '.4th' is used by most of them (the gedit
> >>>> developers specifically asked me to remove '.fs' as it clashed with
> >>>> Fortran).
> >>>>
> >>>> I have another one in development for SciTE/Scintilla, but it seems
> >>>> to be taking me an eternity to get round to finishing it :-)
> >>>
> >>> I typically use '.f' for forth source files.  Is that also used for
> >>> Fortran?
> >>
> >> The extension '.f' is used for Fortran and '.fs' is used for FSharp. I've found that the safest way to avoid clashes is to use '.4th' and '.forth'.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> I'm having some problems getting up the learning curve with SciTE.  Can
> >>> you point me to any teaching materials?  I've found info on the
> >>> properties files, but it is written to explain the commands rather than
> >>> showing how to do various things.  I'm having trouble controlling the
> >>> font used and the mono/proportional flag.  Is there an explanation of
> >>> how this works?  Does setting the monospace feature only display the
> >>> font.monospace for all items while having it off allows multiple type
> >>> faces to be used?  Any idea what the list of type faces is?  I'd like to
> >>> explore alternate monospaced fonts.  Or maybe I'm using tabs incorrectly?
> >>
> >> I have been doing quite a bit of work with SciTE, but haven't looked at the fonts at all.
> >>
> >> I should point out that the Forth highlighter for SciTE doesn't work by default. It won't match any keywords at all, so almost everything is highlighted as 'Idenitifer' (which seems to be the default state for anything that is not recognised). The Forth lexer converts the incoming text to lowercase, but the keywords in the forth.properties file are all in uppercase - so they never match. You can edit forth.properties and convert the keywords to lowercase, but there are still other issues with the highlighting:
> >>
> >> 	- words starting with characters other than a-z are not highlighted correctly.
> >> 	- floating point numbers are not highlighted correct (as per the ANS-94 regex definition)
> >>
> >> It is also worth noting that:
> >>
> >> 	- it highlights control words separately, which doesn't appear to be a common approach across other language highlighters that I have looked at.
> >> 	- it provides highlighting for an 'unknown' dialect of Forth.
> >> 	- it doesn't support code folding.
> >>
> >> The new version that I am currently working on supports the ANS-94 standard, including all wordsets, and also provides code folding. I have looked at implementing word autocompletion, but I'm not sure whether it will operate correctly. Most syntax highlighting systems that I have looked at are much friendlier to a C-style syntax and are tricky to configure for use with a more free-form language like Forth.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> Mark
> >
> > I have rewritten the forth lexer in SciTe to support context sensitive
> > coloring. I have used this for many years and really like it.
> > I did look at implementing folding but found that I would not use it.
> >
> > As the lexer is written in C++ it is quite easy to modify and customize
> > to your needs. Even for a non C++ programmer like me!
> >
> > If you like a copy (source or compiled) please tell me
> 
> Sure, you will need to give me explicit instructions on how to use it. 
> I'm running Windows 8 presently.
> 
> -- 
> 
> Rick C

Please try this link to download SciTe with my modified coloring lexer
There is a readme to explain how to use it

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/kkwz8skioy57n90/AADJdPgQpag1d0W4RrQ79OJqa?dl=0

BR
Peter

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#59138

On 5/10/2017 5:07 PM, Cecil Bayona wrote:
> Which programmers editor would be recommended for use with Forth? I 
> would prefer something free or at least under $100 as my funds are 
> rather limited.
> 
> I would like a programmers editor with you basic features;
> 
> Able to open more than one file at a time.
> Print listings with line numbers.
> Understand Forth so it can autocomplete structures such as IF etc.
> Be able to use color to identify Forth Words, numbers, etc.
> If I have to pay money then I would like it to know how to interface to 
> at least VFX, and SwiftForth.
> 
> There are some free programmer editors that can take a file to customize 
> it to a language any suitable for Forth use?
> 
> Any thoughts or preferences?
> 
> Thanks
> 

I guess I was too generic, here is some qualities desired and if they 
are "Must Have" or "Would Like" features

Must have features;

1.  Be able to open more than one file at a time.
2.  Understand Forth, and other languages so it can autocomplete 
structures such as IF etc.
3.  Use color to identify Language Words, numbers, etc using color 
highlighting.
4.  If I have to pay money then it must be able to interface to at least 
VFX, and SwiftForth.
5.  Available for Windows and Linux, and it would be nice to be 
available for MacOs.
6. Be changeable so I can configure it to meet my requirements
7.  Must be simple to learn, using the mouse for common actions

Would like to have features;

1.  Print listings with line numbers.
2.  Integrate with development software would be a nice like, ie; call 
the compiler/debugger from the editor.

So far the only editor I know of that meets all the "must have" and 
"like to have" features is Visual Studio Code. It is available for 
Windows, Linux, MacOs, it's free, and even the source is available.

Several have suggested Emacs, or various versions of Vim, these are 
extremely capable programmers editors that are user programmable and 
support multiple languages the only minus I see with them is that they 
are extremely keyboard driven that require multi-key commands to get 
anything done thereby having a long learning curve. I realize that if I 
switch to using Linux instead of Windows I will need to learn then in 
the long run.

So for now I've installed Visual Studio Code, GVim, Vim, Emacs, Karen, 
SciTe , and GEdit on a Linux PC and will practice using them to see what 
kind of learning curve is associated with them and what features can be 
implemented. Tomorrow I start the coding/debugging part of my current 
programming project and I will work with these editors every once in a 
while to take a break from that task.
-- 
Cecil - k5nwa

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#59141

On 5/12/2017 8:35 PM, Cecil Bayona wrote:
> On 5/10/2017 5:07 PM, Cecil Bayona wrote:
>> Which programmers editor would be recommended for use with Forth? I
>> would prefer something free or at least under $100 as my funds are
>> rather limited.
>>
>> I would like a programmers editor with you basic features;
>>
>> Able to open more than one file at a time.
>> Print listings with line numbers.
>> Understand Forth so it can autocomplete structures such as IF etc.
>> Be able to use color to identify Forth Words, numbers, etc.
>> If I have to pay money then I would like it to know how to interface
>> to at least VFX, and SwiftForth.
>>
>> There are some free programmer editors that can take a file to
>> customize it to a language any suitable for Forth use?
>>
>> Any thoughts or preferences?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>
> I guess I was too generic, here is some qualities desired and if they
> are "Must Have" or "Would Like" features
>
> Must have features;
>
> 1.  Be able to open more than one file at a time.
> 2.  Understand Forth, and other languages so it can autocomplete
> structures such as IF etc.
> 3.  Use color to identify Language Words, numbers, etc using color
> highlighting.
> 4.  If I have to pay money then it must be able to interface to at least
> VFX, and SwiftForth.
> 5.  Available for Windows and Linux, and it would be nice to be
> available for MacOs.
> 6. Be changeable so I can configure it to meet my requirements

I don't know how any tool can anticipate your requirements...

> 7.  Must be simple to learn, using the mouse for common actions
>
> Would like to have features;
>
> 1.  Print listings with line numbers.

Aren't listings usually generated by software tools?


> 2.  Integrate with development software would be a nice like, ie; call
> the compiler/debugger from the editor.
>
> So far the only editor I know of that meets all the "must have" and
> "like to have" features is Visual Studio Code. It is available for
> Windows, Linux, MacOs, it's free, and even the source is available.
>
> Several have suggested Emacs, or various versions of Vim, these are
> extremely capable programmers editors that are user programmable and
> support multiple languages the only minus I see with them is that they
> are extremely keyboard driven that require multi-key commands to get
> anything done thereby having a long learning curve. I realize that if I
> switch to using Linux instead of Windows I will need to learn then in
> the long run.

It's not like there aren't GUI editors for Linux and even both Linux and 
Windows.


> So for now I've installed Visual Studio Code, GVim, Vim, Emacs, Karen,
> SciTe , and GEdit on a Linux PC and will practice using them to see what
> kind of learning curve is associated with them and what features can be
> implemented. Tomorrow I start the coding/debugging part of my current
> programming project and I will work with these editors every once in a
> while to take a break from that task.

I'm curious to hear your impression of SciTE.

-- 

Rick C

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#59149

> Must have features:
> 2.  Understand Forth, and other languages so it can autocomplete 

I don't know any editor it can do that for forth, and I've tried many over the years.
I would be happy even with just a highlighting feature (click on THEN
or an ELSE and the corresponding IF gets highlighted).

Another problem I faced is with numbers, in fact with words that begin 
with a number: 2DUP, etc.

Also, a nice to have feature is to highlight a word following a keyword,
for example the definition names that follow the : (something like
colorforth where a new defintion is red). 

Forth is so different that having a good highlighting editor needs
very deep access in the editor internals.

Programmer's Notepad was supposed to be that kind of editor, too bad
it's not developed anymore. But I used all the time for daily work.
If it were supporting the ctags, I would forget any other editor. For
big projects that needs ctags I use Notepad++.
And it's only Windows I think...

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#59152

On 5/13/2017 1:53 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote:
>> Must have features:
>> 2.  Understand Forth, and other languages so it can autocomplete
>
> I don't know any editor it can do that for forth, and I've tried many over the years.
> I would be happy even with just a highlighting feature (click on THEN
> or an ELSE and the corresponding IF gets highlighted).

Personally, I could care less if the tool shows me highlighted 
conditional syntax.  That is useful in languages where conditionals get 
deeply nested or lots of stuff is written between the IF and the ELSE. 
In Forth I just don't find it a problem.  The ELSE/THEN is on the same 
line a lot, or at worst the next line or two.

Once my eyes got bad I found I wanted things to be close together so I 
didn't have to move around the page so much.  Forth is good for that.


> Another problem I faced is with numbers, in fact with words that begin
> with a number: 2DUP, etc.

You mean 2DUP would be highlighted as a number?  That seems like a 
pretty poor job of color highlighting.  I'm noticing the Forth 
highlighting in SciTE is not so good with numbers.  Words that could be 
hex numbers seem to be flagged that way.  The IDE editor in Win32Forth 
(which seems to be based on SciTE or a common heritage) doesn't have 
that problem, but SciTE highlights the name of a word definition to 
match the highlighting of the colon and semi.  That is useful.  It 
doesn't highlight Forth words in general.  Win32Forth IDE editor 
highlights forth words, but does nothing special to flag word 
definitions.  It would be useful in both if control structures also had 
a unique highlight.

If I can find documentation on how the language properties files work, I 
may try to change that.


> Also, a nice to have feature is to highlight a word following a keyword,
> for example the definition names that follow the : (something like
> colorforth where a new defintion is red).

That is good.  SciTE does that.


> Forth is so different that having a good highlighting editor needs
> very deep access in the editor internals.

I think highlighting is less important in Forth than other languages. 
Simpler is better in this case.

-- 

Rick C

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#59153

sâmbătă, 13 mai 2017, 09:51:41 UTC+3, rickman a scris:
> On 5/13/2017 1:53 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote:
> >> Must have features:
> >> 2.  Understand Forth, and other languages so it can autocomplete
> >
> > I don't know any editor it can do that for forth, and I've tried many over the years.
> > I would be happy even with just a highlighting feature (click on THEN
> > or an ELSE and the corresponding IF gets highlighted).
> 
> Personally, I could care less if the tool shows me highlighted 
> conditional syntax.  That is useful in languages where conditionals get 
> deeply nested or lots of stuff is written between the IF and the ELSE. 
> In Forth I just don't find it a problem.  The ELSE/THEN is on the same 
> line a lot, or at worst the next line or two.
> 
I don't care either, but I noticed that.

> Once my eyes got bad I found I wanted things to be close together so I 
> didn't have to move around the page so much.  Forth is good for that.
> 
Indeed

> 
> > Another problem I faced is with numbers, in fact with words that begin
> > with a number: 2DUP, etc.
> 
> You mean 2DUP would be highlighted as a number?  That seems like a 
> pretty poor job of color highlighting.  I'm noticing the Forth 
> highlighting in SciTE is not so good with numbers.  Words that could be 
> hex numbers seem to be flagged that way.  The IDE editor in Win32Forth 
> (which seems to be based on SciTE or a common heritage) doesn't have 
> that problem, but SciTE highlights the name of a word definition to 
> match the highlighting of the colon and semi.  That is useful.  It 
> doesn't highlight Forth words in general.  Win32Forth IDE editor 
> highlights forth words, but does nothing special to flag word 
> definitions.  It would be useful in both if control structures also had 
> a unique highlight.
> 
Many just highlihght the '2' alone. You get the word in two colors :)
Others don't let you have such words as keywords.

> If I can find documentation on how the language properties files work, I 
> may try to change that.
> 
> 
> > Also, a nice to have feature is to highlight a word following a keyword,
> > for example the definition names that follow the : (something like
> > colorforth where a new defintion is red).
> 
> That is good.  SciTE does that.
> 
That's nice indeed.
I must look at SciTE again. Last time I checked it was a very crude
implementation of the Scintilla engine.

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#59164

In article <ef49b543-12cd-40c7-8fea-5a9078540874@googlegroups.com>,
Raimond Dragomir  <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> wrote:
>s=C3=A2mb=C4=83t=C4=83, 13 mai 2017, 09:51:41 UTC+3, rickman a scris:
>> On 5/13/2017 1:53 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote:
>> >> Must have features:
>> >> 2.  Understand Forth, and other languages so it can autocomplete
>> >
>> > I don't know any editor it can do that for forth, and I've tried many o=
>ver the years.
>> > I would be happy even with just a highlighting feature (click on THEN
>> > or an ELSE and the corresponding IF gets highlighted).
>>=20
>> Personally, I could care less if the tool shows me highlighted=20
>> conditional syntax.  That is useful in languages where conditionals get=
>=20
>> deeply nested or lots of stuff is written between the IF and the ELSE.=20
>> In Forth I just don't find it a problem.  The ELSE/THEN is on the same=20
>> line a lot, or at worst the next line or two.
>>=20
>I don't care either, but I noticed that.
>
>> Once my eyes got bad I found I wanted things to be close together so I=20
>> didn't have to move around the page so much.  Forth is good for that.
>>=20
>Indeed
>
>>=20
>> > Another problem I faced is with numbers, in fact with words that begin
>> > with a number: 2DUP, etc.
>>=20
>> You mean 2DUP would be highlighted as a number?  That seems like a=20
>> pretty poor job of color highlighting.  I'm noticing the Forth=20
>> highlighting in SciTE is not so good with numbers.  Words that could be=
>=20
>> hex numbers seem to be flagged that way.  The IDE editor in Win32Forth=20
>> (which seems to be based on SciTE or a common heritage) doesn't have=20
>> that problem, but SciTE highlights the name of a word definition to=20
>> match the highlighting of the colon and semi.  That is useful.  It=20
>> doesn't highlight Forth words in general.  Win32Forth IDE editor=20
>> highlights forth words, but does nothing special to flag word=20
>> definitions.  It would be useful in both if control structures also had=
>=20
>> a unique highlight.
>>=20
>Many just highlihght the '2' alone. You get the word in two colors :)
>Others don't let you have such words as keywords.
>
>> If I can find documentation on how the language properties files work, I=
>=20
>> may try to change that.
>>=20
>>=20
>> > Also, a nice to have feature is to highlight a word following a keyword=
>,
>> > for example the definition names that follow the : (something like
>> > colorforth where a new defintion is red).
>>=20
>> That is good.  SciTE does that.
>>=20
>That's nice indeed.
>I must look at SciTE again. Last time I checked it was a very crude
>implementation of the Scintilla engine.

gedit show parsing words and their parsee in green, so not
only `` : test '' but also `` POSTPONE [ ''.
It has no problems with 2DROP 2SWAP.
It show control words like IF THEN in a very dark red, so
it is visible but unobtrusive.
On the other hand comment is in blue, which makes it stand out
clearly.
S" something:" $11 and 12 are all recognized as literals in pink.

Syntax completion? Really I know only of one very productive
programmer who made that pay off.
The first thing to do is (what he did) ignore all editors and
write your own.

What you do is counter productive, really. You should just pick
and editor and get really proficient with it. Don't waste time
trying out other editors. If you want to do music pick an instrument.
Don't try saxophone piano and violin for each 3 months.
In your place I would pick emacs, because in the end it is the most
powerful, I'm just too much familiar with gvim and ee to make it
worthwile to learn emacs. You can invest your time only once.
You can't grow your nails to play the guitar, then cut them short
to play the piano and expect to get anywhere, the wait to grow them
again ..

vi is indispensable, because it is everywhere. Learning the basic
things.       <esc> :q! will get you out without harm done.
Then the keys ijklh and :q and :x and you'll survive.

Groetjes Albert
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

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#59154

Raimond Dragomir wrote:
>> Must have features:
>> 2.  Understand Forth, and other languages so it can autocomplete 
> I don't know any editor it can do that for forth, and I've tried many
> over the years.

The Emacs forth-mode in MELPA has some support for that.  It's probably
not perfect.  It can do it two ways: either parse the buffer contents,
or ask a running Forth using "words".

> Forth is so different that having a good highlighting editor needs
> very deep access in the editor internals.

Right.  I have some experimental code which inspects the state of >IN in
between every word.  This way, we can see how parsing words consume
input.

Self promotion alert: I'm the one who started forth-mode.  (Not to be
confused with forth.el or gforth.el.)

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#59158

On 5/13/2017 12:53 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote:
>> Must have features:
>> 2.  Understand Forth, and other languages so it can autocomplete
> 
> I don't know any editor it can do that for forth, and I've tried many over the years.
> I would be happy even with just a highlighting feature (click on THEN
> or an ELSE and the corresponding IF gets highlighted).
> 
> Another problem I faced is with numbers, in fact with words that begin
> with a number: 2DUP, etc.
> 
> Also, a nice to have feature is to highlight a word following a keyword,
> for example the definition names that follow the : (something like
> colorforth where a new defintion is red).
> 
> Forth is so different that having a good highlighting editor needs
> very deep access in the editor internals.
> 
> Programmer's Notepad was supposed to be that kind of editor, too bad
> it's not developed anymore. But I used all the time for daily work.
> If it were supporting the ctags, I would forget any other editor. For
> big projects that needs ctags I use Notepad++.
> And it's only Windows I think...
> 
On notepad++ I only see Windows downloads, I currently use it for 
generic editing.

Somewhere I read that Notepad++ uses the same editing libraries as SciTe 
but it is available for Windows, Linux, and MacOs.

SciTe will do highlighting and code completion on code blocks, depending 
on the language if you put for example a { it puts a blank line and 
closes it with a } but all of that is controlled by a language file as 
to what constitutes a code block. I believe it uses Lua as the internal 
script language so you can make it do all sorts of things, it was 
created by the same University that created Lua, Puc Rio. It can be made 
to have all the items on my list but I would need to create an entry for 
Forth, most other languages are already available.

-- 
Cecil - k5nwa

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#59174

On 5/13/2017 3:41 AM, Cecil Bayona wrote:
> On 5/13/2017 12:53 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote:
>>> Must have features:
>>> 2.  Understand Forth, and other languages so it can autocomplete
>>
>> I don't know any editor it can do that for forth, and I've tried many
>> over the years.
>> I would be happy even with just a highlighting feature (click on THEN
>> or an ELSE and the corresponding IF gets highlighted).
>>
>> Another problem I faced is with numbers, in fact with words that begin
>> with a number: 2DUP, etc.
>>
>> Also, a nice to have feature is to highlight a word following a keyword,
>> for example the definition names that follow the : (something like
>> colorforth where a new defintion is red).
>>
>> Forth is so different that having a good highlighting editor needs
>> very deep access in the editor internals.
>>
>> Programmer's Notepad was supposed to be that kind of editor, too bad
>> it's not developed anymore. But I used all the time for daily work.
>> If it were supporting the ctags, I would forget any other editor. For
>> big projects that needs ctags I use Notepad++.
>> And it's only Windows I think...
>>
> On notepad++ I only see Windows downloads, I currently use it for
> generic editing.
>
> Somewhere I read that Notepad++ uses the same editing libraries as SciTe
> but it is available for Windows, Linux, and MacOs.

You say, "but it is available..." while SciTE is available under all 
those OS.


> SciTe will do highlighting and code completion on code blocks, depending
> on the language if you put for example a { it puts a blank line and
> closes it with a } but all of that is controlled by a language file as
> to what constitutes a code block. I believe it uses Lua as the internal
> script language so you can make it do all sorts of things, it was
> created by the same University that created Lua, Puc Rio. It can be made
> to have all the items on my list but I would need to create an entry for
> Forth, most other languages are already available.

"Create an entry"?  What does that mean?  There is a Forth syntax parser 
for SciTE.  I'm using it.  By default it doesn't show in the menu, so 
you need to edit the global properties file to stop it from being 
suppressed.  It doesn't seem to highlight all the Forth standard words, 
but there is something wrong still I think.  I have a Forth.properties 
file which clearly contains all that stuff including separate lists for 
flow control, defining, string and to other types of words (prewords1 
and prewords2).  This file is clearly not currently active in SciTE on 
my machine.

I think I've mentioned, using a mono-spaced font is available from a 
menu, but not automatically.  It has to be applied to each file opened. 
There has to be a way to fix that.  In fact it currently doesn't 
recognize any Forth file types other than '.forth'.  So I manually have 
to select the language for all the files on my machine.

-- 

Rick C

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#59611

On 5/10/2017 5:07 PM, Cecil Bayona wrote:
> Which programmers editor would be recommended for use with Forth? I 
> would prefer something free or at least under $100 as my funds are 
> rather limited.
> 
> I would like a programmers editor with you basic features;
> 
> Able to open more than one file at a time.
> Print listings with line numbers.
> Understand Forth so it can autocomplete structures such as IF etc.
> Be able to use color to identify Forth Words, numbers, etc.
> If I have to pay money then I would like it to know how to interface to 
> at least VFX, and SwiftForth.
> 
> There are some free programmer editors that can take a file to customize 
> it to a language any suitable for Forth use?
> 
> Any thoughts or preferences?
> 
> Thanks
> 
A question for the Linux users here who develop software under Linux.

I have a PC that has a second SSD drive with Mint Linux on it, it's 
120GB in size, I want to use this PC to develop software and evaluate 
Linux as a primary OS.

So my question is is that drive large enough? I also have 240 GB SSD 
drives, and one 480GB SSD drive so before I get seriously involved I 
might want to replace the SSD drive with one suited for the task. I also 
have several 1TB, and 2 TB drives available but I rather use an SSD 
drive if possible.

So how big should the Linux drive be for the system to be viable for a 
log time?

-- 
Cecil - k5nwa

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#59615

Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> writes:
> So how big should the Linux drive be for the system to be viable for a
> log time?

You are fine with 120gb unless you have a lot of media files or
exceptionally bloated dev environments.  You can always upgrade your
disk, too.  Yes, use an SSD.  HDD is almost like magtape now.

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#59616

On 5/20/2017 6:32 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> writes:
>> So how big should the Linux drive be for the system to be viable for a
>> log time?
>
> You are fine with 120gb unless you have a lot of media files or
> exceptionally bloated dev environments.  You can always upgrade your
> disk, too.  Yes, use an SSD.  HDD is almost like magtape now.

Just remember that SSD have one thing in common with rotating media, a 
lack of reliability.  I believe that presently rotating magnetic media 
is the least reliable part of a computer.  I don't believe that changes 
with the use of SSD.

-- 

Rick C

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#59618

On 5/20/2017 5:57 PM, rickman wrote:
> On 5/20/2017 6:32 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
>> Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> writes:
>>> So how big should the Linux drive be for the system to be viable for a
>>> log time?
>>
>> You are fine with 120gb unless you have a lot of media files or
>> exceptionally bloated dev environments.  You can always upgrade your
>> disk, too.  Yes, use an SSD.  HDD is almost like magtape now.
> 
> Just remember that SSD have one thing in common with rotating media, a 
> lack of reliability.  I believe that presently rotating magnetic media 
> is the least reliable part of a computer.  I don't believe that changes 
> with the use of SSD.
> 
SSD or Solid State Disk is not a mechanical rotating drive, its all 
electronics.

-- 
Cecil - k5nwa

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#59620

Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> writes:
> SSD or Solid State Disk is not a mechanical rotating drive, its all
> electronics.

I think Rick means you still have to back up your SSD frequently, just
like you would a hard drive.  Maybe their failures are less frequent,
but they tend to fail catastrophically (computer can't find them etc.)
rather than dropping a sector here or there.

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#59626

On 5/20/2017 7:40 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> writes:
>> SSD or Solid State Disk is not a mechanical rotating drive, its all
>> electronics.
>
> I think Rick means you still have to back up your SSD frequently, just
> like you would a hard drive.  Maybe their failures are less frequent,
> but they tend to fail catastrophically (computer can't find them etc.)
> rather than dropping a sector here or there.

Actually it is all of the above.  SSD uses a type of Flash memory which 
wears out.  They contain many bad bits when made and will develop 
failures along the way.  So error correcting codes (ECC) are used to 
hide these errors.  Sectors are also managed with bad ones replaced by 
good ones when problems are detected.  The trouble with that is they 
will seem to work great right up to the moment a sector or more fails 
enough that the ECC can't recover the data.

Read what the guys running data farms find.  They are the volume 
customers of mass storage and they get the real picture first hand.

So, yes, you should still be diligent with your backups.

-- 

Rick C

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#59628

On 21/05/2017 5:04, rickman wrote:

> Read what the guys running data farms find.  They are the volume
> customers of mass storage and they get the real picture first hand.
> 
> So, yes, you should still be diligent with your backups.

Definitely.

And the best backup strategy is to have redundant copies, at least one
of which is off-site.

I personally use "Fossil SCM" to act as a backup system -- not only for
source-code.  It has the advantage of allowing you to see previous
versions of the same file, which can be very useful in the event your
files get corrupted (say, due to a virus).

It doesn't work well for large binary files, but you can't have
everything... for those, use scp or something similar.  Or Dropbox etc
if you have enough storage.

If you do use a cloud-system like Dropbox, encrypt your data first.

Yes, it's a bit of work.  No, you won't regret it when the hammer falls
on your data.

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#59633

rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
>Just remember that SSD have one thing in common with rotating media, a 
>lack of reliability.  I believe that presently rotating magnetic media 
>is the least reliable part of a computer.

Certainly not of my computers.  My most recent hardware failure was a
CPU (a Core i7-6700K not overclocked except for an hour or so early on),
before that a motherboard, and several graphics cards.  At my workplace, power supplies are also 

Not a single HDD death personally (and few in the workplace in the
last 20 years), but in the late 1990s a 6GB IBM HDD developed bad
sectors when used in a removable frame; the power supply through the
frame system was apparently spotty, and the HDD obviously did not
protect enough against that; a low-level format fixed that.

And from what I read, power is also a significant problem for SSDs,
and may be more relevant for most consumers than wear.  Enterprise
drives have a feature "power-loss protection", but for consumer
drives, the idea seems to be that you are out of luck when you happen
to write to the SSD (or the SSD reorganizes itself) during a power
failure.

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2017: http://www.euroforth.org/ef17/

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