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Gforth snapshot for Windows

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  Gforth snapshot for Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-09-30 01:33 +0000
    Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-09-30 15:16 +0100
      Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-09-30 16:26 +0000
        Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-09-30 19:50 +0100
          Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-09-30 20:34 +0000
            Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-10-02 11:14 +0100
              Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-02 16:29 +0000
                Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-10-02 22:47 +0000
            Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows jjmail9@gmail.com - 2016-10-19 04:45 -0700
          Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@zxdehrnyya.cam> - 2016-09-30 17:28 -0400
            Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-09-30 22:14 +0000
            Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-10-01 19:42 +0100
          Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-01 07:08 +0000
            Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-10-02 11:23 +0100
              Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-02 16:14 +0000
                Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-02 12:14 -0500
                Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-10-02 19:45 +0200
                  Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-03 07:43 +0000
                  Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-10-03 12:51 +0100
          Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-10-02 12:07 +0100
            Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-10-02 22:39 +0000
        Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-09-30 14:36 -0700
          Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-01 07:46 +0000
            Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-10-01 12:12 -0700
            Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-10-02 19:51 -0700
        Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-09-30 22:09 +0000
          Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-09-30 13:25 -1000
            Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-10-02 00:10 +0000
              Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-10-01 15:31 -1000
                Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-10-02 23:00 +0000
                  Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-10-02 21:32 -1000
                    Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-03 03:46 -0500
                      Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-10-02 23:25 -1000
                      Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-10-03 12:57 +0200
                        Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-10-03 04:31 -0700
                  Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-04 09:18 +0000
                    Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-10-04 21:57 +0000
                      Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows jjmail9@gmail.com - 2016-10-19 06:47 -0700
                        Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-10-21 20:22 +0000
                    Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-10-04 12:40 -1000
                      Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows jjmail9@gmail.com - 2016-10-19 08:37 -0700
                        Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-19 11:29 -0500
                          Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows jjmail9@gmail.com - 2016-10-19 12:03 -0700
                        Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-20 12:15 +0000
                          Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-10-20 07:36 -1000
                            Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-21 07:15 +0000
                              Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-10-21 22:12 -1000
                                Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-10-22 12:12 +0200
                                Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-22 13:52 +0000
                    Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows jjmail9@gmail.com - 2016-10-19 05:57 -0700
    Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2016-09-30 10:17 -0700
    Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Philip Smith <philipkingsmith@gmail.com> - 2016-09-30 11:45 -0700
    Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows beeflo <beeflobill@gmail.com> - 2016-10-11 10:51 -0700
      Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-10-11 20:44 +0000
        Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Jan Coombs <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com> - 2016-10-12 01:02 +0100
          Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-10-13 00:26 +0000
            Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Jan Coombs <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com> - 2016-10-13 08:48 +0100
              Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-10-13 01:09 -0700
                Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-10-14 23:39 +0000
            Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-10-14 18:05 +0100
              Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-10-14 23:29 +0000
                Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-15 16:26 +0000
                Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-10-17 00:52 +0000
                  Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-10-19 10:50 +0100
        Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Spiros Lakkos <slakkos@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-12 06:50 +0300
      Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-10-11 22:42 -0700
        Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows beeflo <beeflobill@gmail.com> - 2016-10-12 09:41 -0700
          Re: Gforth snapshot for Windows Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-10-12 23:46 +0000

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#52046

     OK.  EDITOR and/or EDIT or LIST invoke the editor vocabulary so the editor words don't always interfere with other searches. That's the point of vocabularies.  Today's philosophy seems to be that every word should be seen all the time, globally, and should be unique.  But, unfortunately, this renders the use of said words difficult as commands, and harder to associate functionally. 
     I'm a native speaker of English.  That carrys certain biases as to language.  We reuse words to death.  We swim in ambiguity and grasp at new and related words like straws in the sea, attempting to reach islands of specificity.  Other languages, especially the heavily inflected ones, weave the straws into mats until there's something that floats.  Niether approach seems particularly well suited to computing.  Forth, on the other (uh, third) hand, recognizes the functional dynamics of word use and naming.  Vocabularies can do work.  Words can talk about and talk to other words.  But really, I don't think forth was ever meant to handle huge numbers of concepts, like how to manage all forms of editing or threading on every possible machine.  That's more of a data problem.
     So the short answer to the question of why would one want any vocabulary continuously present, is, forth doesn't usually do that, with the possible exception of ROOT.

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#52049

On 10/19/2016 10:37 AM, jjmail9@gmail.com wrote:
>      OK.  EDITOR and/or EDIT or LIST invoke the editor vocabulary so the editor words don't always interfere with other searches. That's the point of vocabularies.  Today's philosophy seems to be that every word should be seen all the time, globally, and should be unique.  But, unfortunately, this renders the use of said words difficult as commands, and harder to associate functionally.
>      I'm a native speaker of English.  That carrys certain biases as to language.  We reuse words to death.  We swim in ambiguity and grasp at new and related words like straws in the sea, attempting to reach islands of specificity.  Other languages, especially the heavily inflected ones, weave the straws into mats until there's something that floats.  Niether approach seems particularly well suited to computing.  Forth, on the other (uh, third) hand, recognizes the functional dynamics of word use and naming.  Vocabularies can do work.  Words can talk about and talk to other words.  But really, I don't think forth was ever meant to handle huge numbers of concepts, like how to manage all forms of editing or threading on every possible machine.  That's more of a data problem.
>      So the short answer to the question of why would one want any vocabulary continuously present, is, forth doesn't usually do that, with the possible exception of ROOT.
>
By using vocabularies one also helps the system to be more responsive 
since only a subset of the available words are searched for. I'm 
speaking of embedded system, on a PC the CPU is so fast that it doesn't 
make much difference.

I used to use Pygmy and it it emphasized the use of vocabularies and it 
was quite handy, the assembler had it's own vocabulary so conditionals 
used the same words one was used to but since the assembler vocabulary 
was searched first the assembler version of "IF" was found first.

Nowadays oForth, and 8th use vocabularies extensively and it makes 
things a little easier.

-- 
Cecil - k5nwa

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#52050

    Hello Cecil,
                you wrote:

> By using vocabularies one also helps the system to be more responsive 
> since only a subset of the available words are searched for. I'm 
> speaking of embedded system, on a PC the CPU is so fast that it doesn't 
> make much difference. 
>
> I used to use Pygmy and it it emphasized the use of vocabularies and it 
> was quite handy, the assembler had it's own vocabulary so conditionals 
> used the same words one was used to but since the assembler vocabulary 
> was searched first the assembler version of "IF" was found first. 
>
> Nowadays oForth, and 8th use vocabularies extensively and it makes 
> things a little easier. 
>
> -- 
> Cecil - k5nwa 

     I think you're right about the convienience of vocabularies.  Syntacticly,
vocabularies are essentially identical to structures, objects, etc. in other
languages, but forth lends vocabularies special powers if needed.  And besides,
vocabularies are a pretty good match to how most people think.
     Hashing also improves dictionary response.  Hashing may have caused
the problem you noted with 'IF', by "hashing away" the list structure.
Some metadata, mainly the vocabulary id, really belong in a prefix with
a hashed word.  List recovery metadata ( ordering ) belong post-hash, ie.
in the dictionary entry or bucket.  So maybe the best way to implement a 
vocabulary list is with no list at all.
     As for the speed and size on ( physically ) small machines, the first 
"microprocessor chips" were 4 bit half-adders about the size of a thumbprint
and ran at a few kilohertz.  I don't think any computer ever made of those
chips could support even something as squeeze-hardy as forth.  Today,
even some of the biggest and fastest machines struggle to accommodate 
more modern languages and OSes.  Who can program them in 400 bytes?   
 
     

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#52063

jjmail9@gmail.com writes:
>     OK.  EDITOR and/or EDIT or LIST invoke the editor vocabulary so the ed=
>itor words don't always interfere with other searches. That's the point of =
>vocabularies.  Today's philosophy seems to be that every word should be see=
>n all the time, globally, and should be unique.  But, unfortunately, this r=
>enders the use of said words difficult as commands, and harder to associate=
> functionally.=20

Which said words?  The issue at hand was that B collided with the use
of B as number.  Two solutions were presented:

1) to write the number B as 0B or $B.

2) to put B in the EDITOR vocabulary, so that it would collide with
the number B only if EDITOR is in the search order.  In that case, how
does EDITOR come into the search order?

  a) The user has to do it explicitly, i.e., EDITOR B PREVIOUS; if so,
  the user will likely just add EDITOR to the search order at the
  start of the session, and we have the same collision problem.

  b) LOCATE (and whatever else sets up the context for B, e.g., an
  error) puts EDITOR in the search order.  In that case, after the
  first LOCATE or error, we have EDITOR in the search order, and have
  the same collision problem, until the user removes EDITOR from the
  search order.

I think that Forth, Inc. did the right thing when they chose to put B
in the FORTH vocabulary (requiring solution 1), and we did the right
thing in following them in this respect.

As for general use of vocabularies, sure you can have two words with
the same name in different vocabularies and switch vocabularies.  But
the support of that feature in other parts of Forth is rather limited.
E.g., SEE does not tell you which of the same-named words it refers
to.  It's also annoying in debugging.

Therefore, I prefer to use unique names for words for general use, and
use vocabularies/wordlists only for internal words of some library or
application.  And of course, because we don't bury our tools, I am not
that keen on the latter use, either.

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2016: http://www.euroforth.org/ef16/

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#52064

On 10/20/16 2:15 AM, Anton Ertl wrote:
> jjmail9@gmail.com writes:
>>     OK.  EDITOR and/or EDIT or LIST invoke the editor vocabulary so the ed=
>> itor words don't always interfere with other searches. That's the point of =
>> vocabularies.  Today's philosophy seems to be that every word should be see=
>> n all the time, globally, and should be unique.  But, unfortunately, this r=
>> enders the use of said words difficult as commands, and harder to associate=
>> functionally.=20
>
> Which said words?  The issue at hand was that B collided with the use
> of B as number.  Two solutions were presented:
>
> 1) to write the number B as 0B or $B.
>
> 2) to put B in the EDITOR vocabulary, so that it would collide with
> the number B only if EDITOR is in the search order.  In that case, how
> does EDITOR come into the search order?
>
>   a) The user has to do it explicitly, i.e., EDITOR B PREVIOUS; if so,
>   the user will likely just add EDITOR to the search order at the
>   start of the session, and we have the same collision problem.
>
>   b) LOCATE (and whatever else sets up the context for B, e.g., an
>   error) puts EDITOR in the search order.  In that case, after the
>   first LOCATE or error, we have EDITOR in the search order, and have
>   the same collision problem, until the user removes EDITOR from the
>   search order.
>
> I think that Forth, Inc. did the right thing when they chose to put B
> in the FORTH vocabulary (requiring solution 1), and we did the right
> thing in following them in this respect.
>
> As for general use of vocabularies, sure you can have two words with
> the same name in different vocabularies and switch vocabularies.  But
> the support of that feature in other parts of Forth is rather limited.
> E.g., SEE does not tell you which of the same-named words it refers
> to.  It's also annoying in debugging.
>
> Therefore, I prefer to use unique names for words for general use, and
> use vocabularies/wordlists only for internal words of some library or
> application.  And of course, because we don't bury our tools, I am not
> that keen on the latter use, either.

Surely SEE reports on the word it finds in the current search order?

Cheers,
Elizabeth

-- 
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather   (US & Canada)   800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc.                         +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com

"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================

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#52083

"Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> writes:
>On 10/20/16 2:15 AM, Anton Ertl wrote:
>> As for general use of vocabularies, sure you can have two words with
>> the same name in different vocabularies and switch vocabularies.  But
>> the support of that feature in other parts of Forth is rather limited.
>> E.g., SEE does not tell you which of the same-named words it refers
>> to.  It's also annoying in debugging.
...
>Surely SEE reports on the word it finds in the current search order?

: foo ." foo1" ;
vocabulary v also v definitions
: foo ." foo2" ;
also forth definitions previous
: bar foo ;
previous
see foo
see bar

see bar 
8082BEF   8082BCF ( foo ) JMP           E9DBFFFFFF ok

SEE BAR tells me that it jumps to FOO, but it does not tell me in
which vocabulary that FOO is, and it does not tell me that it's not
the FOO that is currently found in the search order when typing FOO
(or SEE FOO).

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2016: http://www.euroforth.org/ef16/

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#52109

On 10/20/16 9:15 PM, Anton Ertl wrote:
> "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> writes:
>> On 10/20/16 2:15 AM, Anton Ertl wrote:
>>> As for general use of vocabularies, sure you can have two words with
>>> the same name in different vocabularies and switch vocabularies.  But
>>> the support of that feature in other parts of Forth is rather limited.
>>> E.g., SEE does not tell you which of the same-named words it refers
>>> to.  It's also annoying in debugging.
> ...
>> Surely SEE reports on the word it finds in the current search order?
>
> : foo ." foo1" ;
> vocabulary v also v definitions
> : foo ." foo2" ;
> also forth definitions previous
> : bar foo ;
> previous
> see foo
> see bar
>
> see bar
> 8082BEF   8082BCF ( foo ) JMP           E9DBFFFFFF ok
>
> SEE BAR tells me that it jumps to FOO, but it does not tell me in
> which vocabulary that FOO is, and it does not tell me that it's not
> the FOO that is currently found in the search order when typing FOO
> (or SEE FOO).

SEE is only expected to show you what was compiled for the version 
that's in the search order when you execute the SEE, not its vocabulary 
linkage, antecedents, etc. You can, of course, make SEE as complicated 
as you want to. As it is, basically it tells you where the FOO it jumps 
to is. Should you need clarification, you can always type ' FOO with the 
relevant vocabulary options to see which one is at 8082BCF. I've never 
heard someone complain of this problem, so I can't comment further.

Cheers,
Elizabeth

-- 
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather   (US & Canada)   800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc.                         +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com

"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================

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#52110

In article <Bt2dnYGC657AgpbFnZ2dnUU7-RPNnZ2d@supernews.com>,
Elizabeth D. Rather <erather@forth.com> wrote:
>On 10/20/16 9:15 PM, Anton Ertl wrote:
>> "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> writes:
>>> On 10/20/16 2:15 AM, Anton Ertl wrote:
>>>> As for general use of vocabularies, sure you can have two words with
>>>> the same name in different vocabularies and switch vocabularies.  But
>>>> the support of that feature in other parts of Forth is rather limited.
>>>> E.g., SEE does not tell you which of the same-named words it refers
>>>> to.  It's also annoying in debugging.
>> ...
>>> Surely SEE reports on the word it finds in the current search order?
>>
>> : foo ." foo1" ;
>> vocabulary v also v definitions
>> : foo ." foo2" ;
>> also forth definitions previous
>> : bar foo ;
>> previous
>> see foo
>> see bar
>>
>> see bar
>> 8082BEF   8082BCF ( foo ) JMP           E9DBFFFFFF ok
>>
>> SEE BAR tells me that it jumps to FOO, but it does not tell me in
>> which vocabulary that FOO is, and it does not tell me that it's not
>> the FOO that is currently found in the search order when typing FOO
>> (or SEE FOO).
>
>SEE is only expected to show you what was compiled for the version
>that's in the search order when you execute the SEE, not its vocabulary
>linkage, antecedents, etc. You can, of course, make SEE as complicated
>as you want to. As it is, basically it tells you where the FOO it jumps
>to is. Should you need clarification, you can always type ' FOO with the
>relevant vocabulary options to see which one is at 8082BCF. I've never
>heard someone complain of this problem, so I can't comment further.

In ciforth there is a non parsing version of see:

SEE SEE
: SEE ' CRACKED ;

So in the above example
$8082BCF CRACKED

(Of course you will not type in that number. Double click with the
left, then middle click.)

I never considered SEEN , it is unsightly.

>
>Cheers,
>Elizabeth
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

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#52116

"Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> writes:
>On 10/20/16 9:15 PM, Anton Ertl wrote:
>> "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> writes:
>>> On 10/20/16 2:15 AM, Anton Ertl wrote:
>>>> As for general use of vocabularies, sure you can have two words with
>>>> the same name in different vocabularies and switch vocabularies.  But
>>>> the support of that feature in other parts of Forth is rather limited.
>>>> E.g., SEE does not tell you which of the same-named words it refers
>>>> to.  It's also annoying in debugging.
>> ...
>>> Surely SEE reports on the word it finds in the current search order?
>>
>> : foo ." foo1" ;
>> vocabulary v also v definitions
>> : foo ." foo2" ;
>> also forth definitions previous
>> : bar foo ;
>> previous
>> see foo
>> see bar
>>
>> see bar
>> 8082BEF   8082BCF ( foo ) JMP           E9DBFFFFFF ok
>>
>> SEE BAR tells me that it jumps to FOO, but it does not tell me in
>> which vocabulary that FOO is, and it does not tell me that it's not
>> the FOO that is currently found in the search order when typing FOO
>> (or SEE FOO).
>
>SEE is only expected to show you what was compiled for the version 
>that's in the search order when you execute the SEE

Yes, but that's not the issue at hand.

>As it is, basically it tells you where the FOO it jumps 
>to is. Should you need clarification, you can always type ' FOO with the 
>relevant vocabulary options to see which one is at 8082BCF.

Not in SwiftForth.

see bar 
8082BEF   8082BCF ( foo ) JMP           E9DBFFFFFF ok
' foo . 231599  ok
' foo hex . 388AF  ok
also v ' foo . 3899F  ok                                                       

However, SEE works.  But still, with a dozen FOOs, and several dozen
wordlists that they might reside in (and you can get there easily if
you embrace overloading-by-search order), that's not really a
practical approach.

And the situation is worse in Gforth:

see bar 
: bar  
  foo ; ok

>I've never 
>heard someone complain of this problem, so I can't comment further.

Those of us smart enough to avoid it have no reason to complain, and
the others may be too embarrassed:-).

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2016: http://www.euroforth.org/ef16/

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#52044

Mr. Ertl writes:
> B and N don't collide with other words, and for numbers the way to go
> is to write $B or 0B, so I don't see a point in putting them into the 
> EDITOR vocabulary.  I would just burden the users with either always 
> having the EDITOR vocabulary in the search order, or with typing 
> PREVIOUS once for every L.

Older systems either loaded the editor block automatically on error and switched vocabularys, or kept the editor in an overlay. One can avoid the problem with PREVIOUS by having the editor QUIT word clean up.

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#51481

On Thursday, September 29, 2016 at 6:33:58 PM UTC-7, Bernd Paysan wrote:

> I've polished up the snapshots for Windows, the latest one is available 
> here:

Thanks for all of the effort.

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#51482

On Thursday, 29 September 2016 19:33:58 UTC-6, Bernd Paysan  wrote:
> I've polished up the snapshots for Windows, the latest one is available 
> here:
> 
> http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Snapshots/0.7.9_20160923/
> 
> (or https; it's a SHA-1 certificate if you wonder why Chrome shows a red 
> warning sign and a strike-through https; Edge is not that picky).
> 
> Apart from being the latest snapshot of Gforth, the setup.exes now are 
> signed with a Certum "Open Source Developer" certificate, to get rid of 
> the "unsigned binary from teh internetz! Danger!!!111!eleven!" terror 
> warning Windows 10 and its "SmartScreen protection".
> 
> Of course, since my certificate is new, it will show a terror warning 
> even though, but then green "unknown app" and "might damage your 
> computer" and you still need to click through the "more details" to be 
> able to install it nonetheless.
> 
> So download the setup.exes to increase my reputation ;-).  I don't have a 
> botnet at hand to let it do this automatically, as all the bad guys do 
> (with a stolen identity to get the certificate... it is not like the 
> check would actually rule out criminals).
> 
> If someone wants to try net2o's Windows binary distribution, you can do 
> that as well, download here:
> 
> https://net2o.de/windows/
> 
> It needs to be installed after installing the corresponding Gforth.
> 
> -- 
> Bernd Paysan
> "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
> net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ*
> http://bernd-paysan.de/

Yes  ... Very nice job... Thanks !

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#51772

On Thursday, September 29, 2016 at 7:33:58 PM UTC-6, Bernd Paysan wrote:
> I've polished up the snapshots for Windows, the latest one is available 
> here:
> 
> http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Snapshots/0.7.9_20160923/
> 
> (or https; it's a SHA-1 certificate if you wonder why Chrome shows a red 
> warning sign and a strike-through https; Edge is not that picky).
> 
> Apart from being the latest snapshot of Gforth, the setup.exes now are 
> signed with a Certum "Open Source Developer" certificate, to get rid of 
> the "unsigned binary from teh internetz! Danger!!!111!eleven!" terror 
> warning Windows 10 and its "SmartScreen protection".
> 
> Of course, since my certificate is new, it will show a terror warning 
> even though, but then green "unknown app" and "might damage your 
> computer" and you still need to click through the "more details" to be 
> able to install it nonetheless.
> 
> So download the setup.exes to increase my reputation ;-).  I don't have a 
> botnet at hand to let it do this automatically, as all the bad guys do 
> (with a stolen identity to get the certificate... it is not like the 
> check would actually rule out criminals).
> 
> If someone wants to try net2o's Windows binary distribution, you can do 
> that as well, download here:
> 
> https://net2o.de/windows/
> 
> It needs to be installed after installing the corresponding Gforth.
> 
> -- 
> Bernd Paysan
> "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
> net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ*
> http://bernd-paysan.de/

I ran the 64 bit installer, and it seemed to install great.  The 32 bit installer didn't run the post-install script, and the installation thus has problems.

The installer gave an error message saying, "The program can't start because cygwin1.dll is missing from your computer.  Try reinstalling the program to fix this problem."  

I don't have cygwin installed on my computer, and I don't know why it couldn't find the cygwin stuff that came in the installation.

Thanks for the software update.

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#51774

Am Tue, 11 Oct 2016 10:51:48 -0700 schrieb beeflo:
> I ran the 64 bit installer, and it seemed to install great.  The 32 bit
> installer didn't run the post-install script, and the installation thus
> has problems.
> 
> The installer gave an error message saying, "The program can't start
> because cygwin1.dll is missing from your computer.  Try reinstalling the
> program to fix this problem."
> 
> I don't have cygwin installed on my computer, and I don't know why it
> couldn't find the cygwin stuff that came in the installation.

The cygwin1.dll comes with the installation, indeed, and should be found 
there... weird. Anyone else having problems with the 32 bit install?

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ*
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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#51778

On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 20:44:38 -0000 (UTC)
Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> wrote:
 
> The cygwin1.dll comes with the installation, indeed, and
> should be found there... weird. Anyone else having problems
> with the 32 bit install?


Just tried it on Win7pro in virtualbox and get same message. The
install progress bar shows done, the console window is labelled
"C:\Program Files\bin\sh.exe" the error window is labelled
"sh.exe - System Error"

A windows search cannot find cygwin1.dff on the 32b machine, but
on Win7pro64b install does. 


WinXPpro didn't complete installation either, but error looked
different:

  Installing
    Please wait while Setup installs Gforth on your computer
  [progress bar complete]

  Setup [inset window]
    Unable to execute file:
    C:\Program Files\gforth\sh.exe

    CreateProcess failed; code 193
    %1 is not a valid Win32 application
    [OK]


I couldn't find older 32b windows Gforth installers on the
Snapshots page, but tried gforth-0.7.9_20150221.exe becauuse it
was in shared folders on virtual machine. On WinXP, and got same
error as for later version. 


On Win7pro this older version almost completes install, then the
"Setup Gforth" window spawns "Setup" window which says:

Unable to execute file:
C:\Program Files\gforth\sh.exe
Create process failed; code 216.
This version of %1 is not compatible with the version of Windows
you're running. Check your computer's system information to see
whether you need a x86 (21-bit) or x64 (64-bit) version of the
program,
and then contact the software publisher.


One of these virtual machines had Gforth installed, most likely
the the older one I have the installer for.  


tried gforth-0.7.9_20160306, and this installed on Win7, but not
XP. 

Jan Coombs

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#51815

Am Wed, 12 Oct 2016 01:02:34 +0100 schrieb Jan Coombs:

>> The cygwin1.dll comes with the installation, indeed, and should be
>> found there... weird. Anyone else having problems with the 32 bit
>> install?
> 
> 
> Just tried it on Win7pro in virtualbox and get same message. The install
> progress bar shows done, the console window is labelled "C:\Program
> Files\bin\sh.exe" the error window is labelled "sh.exe - System Error"
> 
> A windows search cannot find cygwin1.dff on the 32b machine, but on
> Win7pro64b install does.

Ok, found it.  The 64 bit install has the 32 bit cygwin1.dll and stuff in 
C:\Program Files\bin, the 32 bit install hasn't.  If you, like I, try 
both, it works.  If you only install the 32 bit version, it doesn't work.

I've uploaded a new gforth-0.7.9_20161006.exe (under the same name), try 
that.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ*
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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#51824

On Thu, 13 Oct 2016 00:26:10 -0000 (UTC)
Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> wrote:
[...]
> Ok, found it.  The 64 bit install has the 32 bit cygwin1.dll
> and stuff in C:\Program Files\bin, the 32 bit install hasn't.
> If you, like I, try both, it works.  If you only install the
> 32 bit version, it doesn't work.
> 
> I've uploaded a new gforth-0.7.9_20161006.exe (under the same
> name), try that.

Win7 now good, but XP still has problem, even when installed as
supervisor:

gforth_WinXPinstall.txt

Installer
    "Setup - Gforth"
        Install progress bar looks complete

Terminal window
    "C:\Program Files\bin\sh.exe"
        looks empty

Error window
    "sh.exe - Entry Point Not Found"
        The procedure entry point CancelSynchronousIo \
        could not be located in the dynamic link library \ 
        KERNEL32.dll [ OK ]

Jan Coombs. 
> 
> -- 
> Bernd Paysan
> "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
> net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ*
> http://bernd-paysan.de/

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#51825

On Thursday, October 13, 2016 at 8:48:32 PM UTC+13, Jan Coombs wrote:
> ... XP still has problem ...

We know XP still has problems, but it’s too late to expect them to be fixed now...

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#51869

Am Thu, 13 Oct 2016 01:09:05 -0700 schrieb lawrencedo99:

> On Thursday, October 13, 2016 at 8:48:32 PM UTC+13, Jan Coombs wrote:
>> ... XP still has problem ...
> 
> We know XP still has problems, but it’s too late to expect them to be
> fixed now...

Haha ;-).

It seems to be that Cygwin is using a CancelSynchronousIo syscall, which 
was introduced in Vista.  As long as the Windows port of Gforth uses 
Cygwin, I won't do anything on this one.  It's good to know that it 
doesn't work on XP anymore for that reason.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ*
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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#51863

On 13/10/2016 01:26, Bernd Paysan wrote:
> Am Wed, 12 Oct 2016 01:02:34 +0100 schrieb Jan Coombs:
>
>>> The cygwin1.dll comes with the installation, indeed, and should be
>>> found there... weird. Anyone else having problems with the 32 bit
>>> install?
>>
>>
>> Just tried it on Win7pro in virtualbox and get same message. The install
>> progress bar shows done, the console window is labelled "C:\Program
>> Files\bin\sh.exe" the error window is labelled "sh.exe - System Error"
>>
>> A windows search cannot find cygwin1.dff on the 32b machine, but on
>> Win7pro64b install does.
>
> Ok, found it.  The 64 bit install has the 32 bit cygwin1.dll and stuff in
> C:\Program Files\bin, the 32 bit install hasn't.  If you, like I, try
> both, it works.  If you only install the 32 bit version, it doesn't work.
>
> I've uploaded a new gforth-0.7.9_20161006.exe (under the same name), try
> that.
>

gforth-0.7.9_20161006.exe fails 8 tests in SUBSTITUTE tests in file 
stringtests.fth under Windows 10. IIRC they used to run on a previous 
version Gforth 0.7.9_20160113

Use the latest version of the tests:
https://github.com/gerryjackson/forth2012-test-suite

-- 
Gerry

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