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How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess?

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  How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2014-10-21 04:50 -0700
    Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-10-22 02:37 -0700
      Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-10-22 09:57 -1000
        Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2014-10-22 14:11 -0700
          Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2014-10-22 23:08 +0100
            Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-10-22 23:02 -0400
              Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-10-22 18:26 -1000
              Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2014-10-23 21:32 +0100
        Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-22 23:14 +0200
          Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-10-22 13:23 -1000
            Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-10-24 14:34 +0200
              Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? beeflobill@gmail.com - 2014-12-05 12:28 -0800
                Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-05 12:44 -0800
                Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-12-05 16:20 -0500
                Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-05 13:43 -0800
                Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-12-05 18:24 -1000
                  Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-06 10:23 -0800
                  Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2014-12-06 18:24 -0800
                    Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-12-06 22:59 -0500
                      Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2014-12-06 21:03 -0800
                        Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-12-07 04:14 -0500
                        Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2014-12-07 09:04 -0800
                          Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2014-12-07 19:23 -0800
                            Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2014-12-07 19:30 -0800
                          Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-08 09:35 +0000
                            Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? awegel@arcor.de (Alexander Wegel) - 2014-12-08 12:53 +0100
                              Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2014-12-08 14:11 -0800
                                Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? awegel@arcor.de (Alexander Wegel) - 2014-12-09 00:02 +0100
                    Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-07 21:50 +0000
                      Re: How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-12-07 23:00 +0100

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#34055 — How popular is Forth really, compared to others, any guess?

http://itflow.biz/popular-programming-language-october-14/
and
http://itflow.biz/most-profitable-programming-languages/
  
The most popular programming language in October '14

There are almost 700 programming languages according to Wikipedia. Some of them like Algol or Lisp are already historical and no one use them anymore, but

  
View Discussion
  https://www.linkedin.com/groupItem?view=&item=5930043025324539907&type=member&gid=2788874&trk=eml-b2_anet_digest-hero-4-hero-disc-disc-0&midToken=AQFU24btWQy5UQ&fromEmail=fromEmail&ut=11QqwRX5N5ACs1



  

  

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#34087

Java is still holding on, I see.

I wonder how many paid Forth developers in the world? <50?

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#34093

On 10/21/14 11:37 PM, Mark Wills wrote:
> Java is still holding on, I see.
>
> I wonder how many paid Forth developers in the world? <50?
>

In our current customer list, several thousand. Probably MPE can say the 
same. And who knows how many using gForth, Win32Forth, etc.?

The Forth community suffers from lack of communication. Very few of our 
customers ever come to c.l.f. When we've asked them, they say it's 
because they're too busy working. I don't know what the solution is.

Cheers,
Elizabeth

-- 
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather   (US & Canada)   800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc.                         +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com

"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================

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#34097

On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 12:57:45 PM UTC-7, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote:

> The Forth community suffers from lack of communication. Very few of our 
> customers ever come to c.l.f. When we've asked them, they say it's 
> because they're too busy working. I don't know what the solution is.

Does that mean that for most people, Forth is a tool instead of an obsession?

:^/

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#34100

Jason Damisch wrote:

> On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 12:57:45 PM UTC-7, Elizabeth D. Rather
> wrote:
> 
>> The Forth community suffers from lack of communication. Very few of our
>> customers ever come to c.l.f. When we've asked them, they say it's
>> because they're too busy working. I don't know what the solution is.
> 
> Does that mean that for most people, Forth is a tool instead of an
> obsession?
> 
> :^/

As one who develops a range of system types (some embedded and some are 
based on commercial PLC equipment) I have a mix of programming languages and 
environments in my tool belt. Which is chosen does rather depend on the best 
choice for the project (even to the point of no software if necessary). For 
embedded work I would certainly be looking at Forth as my tool of choice. If 
a PLC is the best tool for the project task, then I would be using any of 
the IEC61131 set of languages. If it is a collection of PLC's then even 
IEC61499 might come into play.

However, most of my effort will be directed more at resolving issues with 
the clients requirements specification, understanding the applicable 
legislation and required standards for Safety (like IEC61508, IEC61511, 
IEC62626 etc). Programming is actually the least portion of the work I am 
involved in. I am sure that there are many others out there who, like me, do 
use Forth as one of the tools in the tool-belt, but it is not the only tool.

-- 
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett IEng MIET.....<email://Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy.............<http://www.hidecs.co.uk>
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
********************************************************************

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#34105

On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 18:08:37 -0400, Paul E Bennett  
<Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> wrote:

> As one who develops a range of system types (some embedded and some are
> based on commercial PLC equipment) I have a mix of programming languages  
> and environments in my tool belt. Which is chosen does rather depend on
> the best choice for the project (even to the point of no software if
> necessary).  For embedded work I would certainly be looking at Forth
> as my tool of choice.

Why?  Since it's embedded, isn't the native assembly language the best?


Rod Pemberton

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#34107

On 10/22/14 5:02 PM, Rod Pemberton wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 18:08:37 -0400, Paul E Bennett
> <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> As one who develops a range of system types (some embedded and some are
>> based on commercial PLC equipment) I have a mix of programming
>> languages and environments in my tool belt. Which is chosen does
>> rather depend on
>> the best choice for the project (even to the point of no software if
>> necessary).  For embedded work I would certainly be looking at Forth
>> as my tool of choice.
>
> Why?  Since it's embedded, isn't the native assembly language the best?

Programming in assembler takes a *lot* longer, and the programs tend to 
be bigger due to less factoring. Assembler programs are also much more 
difficult to test and maintain over time.

The professional-level Forth cross compilers come with lots of 
pre-existing capabilities, including multitaskers and other helpful 
things, and programming is interactive and very fast. Especially with 
the optimizing code compilers, performance is excellent.

Cheers,
Elizabeth

-- 
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather   (US & Canada)   800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc.                         +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com

"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================

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#34122

Rod Pemberton wrote:

> On Wed, 22 Oct 2014 18:08:37 -0400, Paul E Bennett
> <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> wrote:
> 
>> As one who develops a range of system types (some embedded and some are
>> based on commercial PLC equipment) I have a mix of programming languages
>> and environments in my tool belt. Which is chosen does rather depend on
>> the best choice for the project (even to the point of no software if
>> necessary).  For embedded work I would certainly be looking at Forth
>> as my tool of choice.
> 
> Why?  Since it's embedded, isn't the native assembly language the best?
> 
> 
> Rod Pemberton

When, in my view, Forth happens to be the best macro assembler in existence 
that is a fully supportive "Component Oriented Development Environment" and 
is also cross-platform, why would I constrain myself to the native machine 
code these days (except for a few primitives of Forth).

The big benefit, of my way of using Forth, is that I can start with a small 
processor and, if it become necessary, move to a larger processor without 
having to re-certify everything again. This despite the fact I may have 
changed family of processor in the move.

When your Virtual Machine has been in use and stable for more than 40 years 
you get to realise there must be something right about it. I think I am 
starting to convince some of the SPARK-ADA proponents (but it may take a 
little more work there yet).


-- 
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett IEng MIET.....<email://Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy.............<http://www.hidecs.co.uk>
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
********************************************************************

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#34098

Elizabeth D. Rather wrote:

> On 10/21/14 11:37 PM, Mark Wills wrote:
>> Java is still holding on, I see.
>>
>> I wonder how many paid Forth developers in the world? <50?
>>
> 
> In our current customer list, several thousand. Probably MPE can say the
> same. And who knows how many using gForth, Win32Forth, etc.?

One question is whether they are "paid Forth developers".  I've never been a 
"paid Forth developer" in the sense that my job title included Forth.  If 
you search a typical job offer site for "Java", you get a lot of offers for 
"Java developers".  These are jobs for code monkeys, often very clearly 
stating that you will develop software according to the specs written by 
other guys.  In the same business where Cobol had that role some decades 
ago, replacing the old Cobol programs.

If you walk through your customer list, you won't find that many of those 
job titles.

What I do know is how many people have installed Gforth for Android, because 
Google knows everything (especially everything about their users ;-): it's 
about 1000.

> The Forth community suffers from lack of communication. Very few of our
> customers ever come to c.l.f. When we've asked them, they say it's
> because they're too busy working. I don't know what the solution is.

They also don't show up on Forth conferences...

Forth Inc. does a lot of training, and I'm quite sure these people have 
questions later, too.  If you would direct them to stackoverflow.com to ask 
their questions there, they will be visible to a wider public, and unlike 
c.l.f, stackoverflow.com is a pretty friendly place for beginners to ask 
questions - and a lot of people search stackoverflow.com to find solutions.

There aren't so many questions and answers about Forth on stackoverflow.com, 
a typical chicken&egg problem: we Forthers aren't there.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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#34102

On 10/22/14 11:14 AM, Bernd Paysan wrote:
> Elizabeth D. Rather wrote:
>
>> On 10/21/14 11:37 PM, Mark Wills wrote:
>>> Java is still holding on, I see.
>>>
>>> I wonder how many paid Forth developers in the world? <50?
>>>
>>
>> In our current customer list, several thousand. Probably MPE can say the
>> same. And who knows how many using gForth, Win32Forth, etc.?
>
> One question is whether they are "paid Forth developers".  I've never been a
> "paid Forth developer" in the sense that my job title included Forth.  If
> you search a typical job offer site for "Java", you get a lot of offers for
> "Java developers".  These are jobs for code monkeys, often very clearly
> stating that you will develop software according to the specs written by
> other guys.  In the same business where Cobol had that role some decades
> ago, replacing the old Cobol programs.
>
> If you walk through your customer list, you won't find that many of those
> job titles.

Most of our customers would actually describe themselves as engineers. 
They are typically working from general design requirements from more 
senior engineers or from marketing, and are responsible for both the 
detailed design and implementation (often involving hardware as well as 
software).

> What I do know is how many people have installed Gforth for Android, because
> Google knows everything (especially everything about their users ;-): it's
> about 1000.
>
>> The Forth community suffers from lack of communication. Very few of our
>> customers ever come to c.l.f. When we've asked them, they say it's
>> because they're too busy working. I don't know what the solution is.
>
> They also don't show up on Forth conferences...

Right.

> Forth Inc. does a lot of training, and I'm quite sure these people have
> questions later, too.  If you would direct them to stackoverflow.com to ask
> their questions there, they will be visible to a wider public, and unlike
> c.l.f, stackoverflow.com is a pretty friendly place for beginners to ask
> questions - and a lot of people search stackoverflow.com to find solutions.
>
> There aren't so many questions and answers about Forth on stackoverflow.com,
> a typical chicken&egg problem: we Forthers aren't there.

Most of our customers rely on FORTH, Inc. for support. Would 
stackoverflow.com provide better support, do you think?

Cheers,
Elizabeth

-- 
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather   (US & Canada)   800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc.                         +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com

"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================

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#34130

Elizabeth D. Rather wrote:

> On 10/22/14 11:14 AM, Bernd Paysan wrote:
>> There aren't so many questions and answers about Forth on
>> stackoverflow.com, a typical chicken&egg problem: we Forthers aren't
>> there.
> 
> Most of our customers rely on FORTH, Inc. for support. Would
> stackoverflow.com provide better support, do you think?

No, I'd suppose that Forth Inc.s people would answer the questions there.

It's just that your support is completely invisible to anybody outside, so 
according to the logic "what isn't visible doesn't happen".  This sort of 
stealth marketing we have in the Forth community doesn't work too well ;-).

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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#34801

> There aren't so many questions and answers about Forth on stackoverflow.com, 
> a typical chicken&egg problem: we Forthers aren't there.

> > Most of our customers rely on FORTH, Inc. for support. Would
> > stackoverflow.com provide better support, do you think?
> 
> No, I'd suppose that Forth Inc.s people would answer the questions there.
> 
> It's just that your support is completely invisible to anybody outside, so 
> according to the logic "what isn't visible doesn't happen".  This sort of 
> stealth marketing we have in the Forth community doesn't work too well ;-).

As a super-noob to forth, I am using stackoverflow.com for help to learn forth.  I have found that that group of people are very helpful.

I am a hardware engineer, and I don't have a job that uses forth in any way (we use perl like Duct Tape with EDA software).  My interest in forth is based in the hope that it's as good as people say it is and my frustration with endless layers of abstraction.

Therefore, I'm not really in a position to pay money for support. But, if I learned forth well enough, then I suspect opportunities would appear. Then I might appreciate being a customer to Forth Inc.

In any case, my plan is to continue asking dumb noob questions on stackoverflow.com.  Hopefully my questions will have gain (in the amplifier sense) for the forth community.

About the invisibility of the forth community: it's a wonder that Leo Brodie's 30 year old book is *the* primary reference for learning forth.

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#34802

beeflobill@gmail.com writes:
> I am a hardware engineer, and I don't have a job that uses forth in
> any way...  Therefore, I'm not really in a position to pay money for
> support. But, if I learned forth well enough, then I suspect
> opportunities would appear. Then I might appreciate being a customer
> to Forth Inc.

For fooling around on your desktop, gforth is pretty good.  For embedded
development, it seems to me that the commercial implementations (Forth
Inc and MPE Forth) have much better tooling (cross development so you
can use full featured Forth on a tiny micro, etc) than the free stuff
that's currently out there.

> In any case, my plan is to continue asking dumb noob questions on
> stackoverflow.com.

This newsgroup is also a good place for Forth questions.

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#34804

On 12/5/2014 3:28 PM, beeflobill@gmail.com wrote:
>> There aren't so many questions and answers about Forth on stackoverflow.com,
>> a typical chicken&egg problem: we Forthers aren't there.
>
>>> Most of our customers rely on FORTH, Inc. for support. Would
>>> stackoverflow.com provide better support, do you think?
>>
>> No, I'd suppose that Forth Inc.s people would answer the questions there.
>>
>> It's just that your support is completely invisible to anybody outside, so
>> according to the logic "what isn't visible doesn't happen".  This sort of
>> stealth marketing we have in the Forth community doesn't work too well ;-).
>
> As a super-noob to forth, I am using stackoverflow.com for help to learn forth.  I have found that that group of people are very helpful.
>
> I am a hardware engineer, and I don't have a job that uses forth in any way (we use perl like Duct Tape with EDA software).  My interest in forth is based in the hope that it's as good as people say it is and my frustration with endless layers of abstraction.

I've used it for working with hardware.  I use it to control a test 
fixture which let me debug a board I designed and is now used for 
production test.  I like it a lot for that purpose.


> Therefore, I'm not really in a position to pay money for support. But, if I learned forth well enough, then I suspect opportunities would appear. Then I might appreciate being a customer to Forth Inc.

I took that path once in a day job.  I had the funding lined up to pay 
for a copy of MPE forth but when it came time to buy it the program 
manager refused saying he didn't see what he was getting.


> In any case, my plan is to continue asking dumb noob questions on stackoverflow.com.  Hopefully my questions will have gain (in the amplifier sense) for the forth community.

I think the single biggest problem I've had is what Jeff Fox called "not 
being able to count", meaning mucking up the stack.  Documentation helps 
a lot with that (always use your stack comment on every word) as does 
unit testing (test each and every word before using it no matter how 
simple).  The extra work is *well* worth it.  I do the same with my VHDL 
code but the modules are a little larger.


> About the invisibility of the forth community: it's a wonder that Leo Brodie's 30 year old book is *the* primary reference for learning forth.

Yeah, but the ones you do find are anything *but* invisible.  They can 
also be very vocal...

-- 

Rick

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#34806

On Friday, December 5, 2014 12:28:59 PM UTC-8, beeflo wrote:

> As a super-noob to forth, 

Welcome.  I hope that your time with Forth is a pleasant experience.

With Forth, if you choose to use objects, you have a choice of which
kind of object system to use.  Have a look at HYPE.

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ForthObjects

Jason

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#34810

On 12/5/14 10:28 AM, beeflobill@gmail.com wrote:
>> There aren't so many questions and answers about Forth on stackoverflow.com,
>> a typical chicken&egg problem: we Forthers aren't there.
>
>>> Most of our customers rely on FORTH, Inc. for support. Would
>>> stackoverflow.com provide better support, do you think?
>>
>> No, I'd suppose that Forth Inc.s people would answer the questions there.
>>
>> It's just that your support is completely invisible to anybody outside, so
>> according to the logic "what isn't visible doesn't happen".  This sort of
>> stealth marketing we have in the Forth community doesn't work too well ;-).
>
> As a super-noob to forth, I am using stackoverflow.com for help to learn forth.  I have found that that group of people are very helpful.
>
> I am a hardware engineer, and I don't have a job that uses forth in any way (we use perl like Duct Tape with EDA software).  My interest in forth is based in the hope that it's as good as people say it is and my frustration with endless layers of abstraction.
>
> Therefore, I'm not really in a position to pay money for support. But, if I learned forth well enough, then I suspect opportunities would appear. Then I might appreciate being a customer to Forth Inc.
>
> In any case, my plan is to continue asking dumb noob questions on stackoverflow.com.  Hopefully my questions will have gain (in the amplifier sense) for the forth community.
>
> About the invisibility of the forth community: it's a wonder that Leo Brodie's 30 year old book is *the* primary reference for learning forth.

Forth, Inc. has free downloadable versions of our products (SwiftForth 
and our cross-compiler line SwiftX) available for download at forth.com. 
These are well documented, with not only product-specific documentation 
but also the Forth Programmer's Handbook, a text that covers current 
implementation technology. It's not as cute as Starting Forth, but it's 
far more contemporary and thorough.

There's also my book, Forth Application Techniques, which is intended as 
a beginner's tutorial textbook. It's available from Amazon.com.

Aloha,
Elizabeth

-- 
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather   (US & Canada)   800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc.                         +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com

"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================

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#34825

On Friday, December 5, 2014 8:24:31 PM UTC-8, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote:

> Forth, Inc. has free downloadable versions of our products

OBJECTS SWOOP = . -1           \ funny Forth Psudocode :^)

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#34829

On Friday, December 5, 2014 9:24:31 PM UTC-7, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote:
> ...the Forth Programmer's Handbook, a text that covers current 
> implementation technology. It's not as cute as Starting Forth, but it's 
> far more contemporary and thorough.

None of the Forth Inc. books describe how to implement a struct in Forth --- this is because Elizabeth Rather doesn't know what a struct is.

That "Forth Programmer's Handbook" was written at a time when (LOCAL) would crash SwiftForth if used --- Elizabeth Rather didn't know what local variables were either --- she really doesn't know anything about computer programming.

> Aloha,
> Elizabeth

Didn't you have to leave Hawaii after the assassination attempt?

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#34830

On 12/6/2014 9:24 PM, hughaguilar96@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, December 5, 2014 9:24:31 PM UTC-7, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote:
>> ...the Forth Programmer's Handbook, a text that covers current
>> implementation technology. It's not as cute as Starting Forth, but it's
>> far more contemporary and thorough.
>
> None of the Forth Inc. books describe how to implement a struct in Forth --- this is because Elizabeth Rather doesn't know what a struct is.
>
> That "Forth Programmer's Handbook" was written at a time when (LOCAL) would crash SwiftForth if used --- Elizabeth Rather didn't know what local variables were either --- she really doesn't know anything about computer programming.
>
>> Aloha,
>> Elizabeth
>
> Didn't you have to leave Hawaii after the assassination attempt?

I make a point of not replying to you when you post crap, but I feel I 
should respond when you are just plain being evil.  You really are out 
of line when you say stuff like this.  It shows just how mean spirited 
you are and what a low person you can be.

You rant all day long about how crappy Forth Inc products are and how 
badly you have been mistreated by the world.  But there is no call for 
you to pick on others here.  It really drags down the group.

-- 

Rick

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#34831

On Saturday, December 6, 2014 8:59:59 PM UTC-7, rickman wrote:
> On 12/6/2014 9:24 PM, hughaguilar96@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, December 5, 2014 9:24:31 PM UTC-7, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote:
> >> ...the Forth Programmer's Handbook, a text that covers current
> >> implementation technology. It's not as cute as Starting Forth, but it's
> >> far more contemporary and thorough.
> >
> > None of the Forth Inc. books describe how to implement a struct in Forth --- this is because Elizabeth Rather doesn't know what a struct is.
> >
> > That "Forth Programmer's Handbook" was written at a time when (LOCAL) would crash SwiftForth if used --- Elizabeth Rather didn't know what local variables were either --- she really doesn't know anything about computer programming.
> >
> >> Aloha,
> >> Elizabeth
> >
> > Didn't you have to leave Hawaii after the assassination attempt?
> 
> I make a point of not replying to you when you post crap, but I feel I 
> should respond when you are just plain being evil.  You really are out 
> of line when you say stuff like this.  It shows just how mean spirited 
> you are and what a low person you can be.
> 
> You rant all day long about how crappy Forth Inc products are and how 
> badly you have been mistreated by the world.  But there is no call for 
> you to pick on others here.  It really drags down the group.
> 
> -- 
> 
> Rick

You're just a suck-up. This is what I mean about ANS-Forth being a cult --- ANS-Forth is a complete failure from a technical standpoint --- all ANS-Forth has going for it is loyalty from sycophants such as yourself.

Show me any Forth Inc. book that shows how to implement structs --- there is none --- Elizabeth Rather doesn't know what a struct is.

Why does the ANS-Forth standards lack a D/ word? Because Elizabeth Rather doesn't know how to implement division. Why does the LOCALS| word have the parameters backwards? Because Elizabeth Rather couldn't figure out how to flip them around (hint: use the return stack). Why does ANS-Forth allow the parameter-stack to be used as the control-stack? Because Elizabeth Rather doesn't know what a meta-compiling word does, and doesn't realize that the control-flow data is clashing with the meta-compiling word's parameters. The litany of failures in ANS-Forth is endless.

Elizabeth Rather has dragged down the whole Forth community for 30 years --- she is a phony --- she has never written a computer program in her life.

Elizabeth Rather is also a liar. She gets rejected for a sale, and then she spends decades telling everybody that the person who got the job failed. This is not just me, but she does it with every sale that she has been rejected on. This is not even a believable lie --- how would she know what happened to the project after her sales pitch was rejected? --- obviously, the customer isn't going to give her progress reports, as the customer doesn't care about her in the slightest. She just makes this stuff up.

Consider this thread:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.forth/1y4khh5VZBc%5B1-25-false%5D
Here Elizabeth Rather brags about making a sale, which she refers to as a "good story."
But then she concludes with this:
"Subsequently, Datasaab decided that they didn't want to use proprietary 
software, and some Swedish programmers attempted to program the Datasaab 
devices using a FIG variant. This was unsuccessful (I don't know any of 
the details), and Forth was dropped."
The customer dropped Forth Inc. eventually --- I suspect that every customer drops Forth Inc. sooner or later --- they all discover that Forth Inc. can't do the job. But Elizabeth Rather says the Swedes who got the job failed, although she doesn't know the details (if she doesn't know the details, then how does she know that the Swedish programmers failed?).

Here is Elizabeth Rather demonstrating her complete failure to understand the concept of general-purpose data-structures:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.forth/OSGAn7bsDU0 

On Thursday, September 26, 2013 12:09:59 PM UTC-7, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote: 
> On 9/26/13 2:27 AM, Albert van der Horst wrote: 
> > In article <043a32ac-c009-4aff-beda-aa4041daadcb@googlegroups.com>, 
> >   <hughag...@yahoo.com> wrote: 
> >> On Wednesday, September 25, 2013 11:44:35 AM UTC-7, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote: 
> >>> But my point is that you can define data objects to behave *exactly* the 
> >>> way you want them to, to solve the problem at hand. 
> 
> >> I totally disagree with this. It is foolish to custom-implement basic 
> >> data structures such as arrays for every application. It is easy to 
> >> write a general-purpose array or linked-list or whatever, that works 
> >> exactly the way that you want it to for *every* application. 
  
> Does "*every* application" you write use exactly the same kind of data 
> arranged in the same way? If so, having written it once you can reuse it 
> often. If not, you either have to rearrange your data to make it work or 
> modify your "general-purpose" structure. 

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