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Re: Forth in oblivion

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On Sun, 23 Feb 2014 16:17:22 -0500, Stanley Daniel de Liver  
<notagoodone@invalid.org.invalid> wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Feb 2014 23:16:26 -0000, Rod Pemberton
> <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> wrote:

<OT>

>> The most important of which is there is no programmer demand for Forth.
>>
> Rod, you can't hope to tell an (x) based newsgroup that there's no call
> for (x) unless you want a negative reaction.

Sure I can.  I don't have to hope to tell.  I have done so many times a
month.  That's what I believe.  You can't stop me.  I've been posting
here for at least seven years now...  Whether my message falls on deaf
ears or reaches the willfully blind is a different issue.  My belief is
no matter how hard you try to block a message, no matter how resilient
some people are in rejecting it, it does get through to most, eventually,
when it's the truth.  Then, once they realize it's the truth, things
begin to slowly change, and eventually build momentum.

Any negative reaction towards me in regards to what I say is symptomatic of
your psychological hang-ups, not mine, in regards to hearing the truth.
I.e., I can't help you cure your negative emotional responses towards  
others
or what they express.  That's something you have to learn how to handle for
yourself or pay a psychologist for.  They're going to tell you the same
thing I just told you.  Pay-up?  It's called self-control.

I will continue to reveal what I recognize as the truth as long as I decide
to post here which will probably be until I deem my Forth interpreter
project finished, or maybe longer ...  I like a few people here.  So, it
could be a while.  Meaning, there is no point in you whining about it  
either.
You're not the first.  You really have no ability to change any of my  
actions
or thoughts on the subject.

>   I think that's called trolling.

AIUI, trolling is intentionally attempting to incite and cause anger.

There is a huge difference between that and expressing the truth even if
it's contradictory to the faith that most here have.  Of course, I express
it here because I think it's good for those here to actually discuss the
issue of how Forth performs relative to other languages.  Without such
discourse, Forth will simply continue to die.

Everyone here says they don't want Forth to die, but they don't practice
what they preach.  They're letting it happen, letting Forth die, by  
rejecting
the reality that Forth as-is just can't compete with other languages.   
They've
got their heads buried in the sand.  Their words and actions don't match.

It's not until Forth users actually accept the truth, instead of rejecting
any and all criticism, and deal with it in a positive, and healthy manner,
instead of a hostile and negative one, that they can begin move forward
with progress and perhaps save Forth from imminent death.

> There's probably 0 demand for anyone's home grown OS [...]

That seems to be true.  Yet, it hasn't stopped at least a dozen people
I know of from producing them.  In that regard, it must be considered to
be a form of individual self-expression like artwork, or an issue of pride,
or a measure of strength of will or self-determination, or an enjoyable
use of time, or perhaps an intellectual challenge.

Of course, I thought *exactly* same thing when I heard about Linux many
years ago: no point, doomed to failure, nearly impossible to succeed.  If
it had remained a personal project of one individual, it probably would've
failed by the mid 1990's.

Well, it took me two decades of attempts with dozens of distro's too poorly
implemented to be of any real use as an OS, and a decade for Linux to dump
it's horrible ext2 filesystem, but here I am today - about 23 years later
 from when I first heard of Linux - posting from a Linux which supports  
*all*
my hardware for the first time ever.  It has a nice GUI too.  It also has
multiple media players and multiple internet browsers.  In fact, they're
same ones you can use with Windows.  Of course, without immense continued
funding, Linux is going to run straight into a wall, stagnate, or suffer
bit-rot.  It seems to be showing some bit-rot already.

Linux is competing against a wealthy commercial producer of an OS and is
fighting a difficult battle against numerous individuals and entities with
all sorts of property rights which are required to implement many aspects
of a full featured OS.  The funding needed to acquire licenses for those
rights is almost non-existant while the funding needed to protect those
rights is almost infinite.

After experiencing Unix SysV, I never would've believed I would *ever*
be using *nix for my OS.  I still don't like the OS, but once you're
in a GUI, if you don't have any serious problems with Linux itself,
and you are able or have someone who can adjust it or set it up for you,
it's not bad now.  As a GUI OS, it's not near Windows level of excellence,
performance, functionality, but it's not bad at all.

> [...] or minimal C implementation either, [...]

There is actually a bit of interest in the latter.  A number of minimal
C implementations have attracted users of the past few years.  That
actually surprised me a bit.   Clearly, there is a severe lack of speed
and functionality from such an implementation.  For a long while, it seemed
I was the only one interested.

These reduced compilers seem to be of interest mostly among those in the
OS development crowd.  Bootstrapping a compiler and toolchain is an issue
for every new OS.  So, simpler compilers are attractive.  Otherwise, you
have to cross-compile (meta-compile to you) your OS.  That means your OS is
dependent on another full-featured OS like Windows or Linux to be compiled.


Rod Pemberton

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Thread

Forth in oblivion akk <akk@nospam.org> - 2014-02-16 19:21 +0100
  Re: Forth in oblivion Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-16 12:03 -0800
    Re: Forth in oblivion hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-02-16 15:47 -0800
    Re: Forth in oblivion Peter Percival <peterxpercival@hotmail.com> - 2014-03-05 15:25 +0000
  Re: Forth in oblivion visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-02-18 00:06 -0800
    Re: Forth in oblivion "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-02-18 06:15 -0500
      Re: Forth in oblivion visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-02-18 09:52 -0800
        Re: Forth in oblivion "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-02-18 18:16 -0500
          Re: Forth in oblivion visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-02-18 19:05 -0800
            Re: Forth in oblivion AKK <akk@nospam.org> - 2014-02-19 09:47 +0100
            Re: Forth in oblivion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-02-19 04:08 -0600
            Re: Forth in oblivion "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-02-19 05:39 -0500
          Re: Forth in oblivion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-02-19 04:09 -0600
            Re: Forth in oblivion "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-02-19 06:18 -0500
              Re: Forth in oblivion Stefan Mauerhofer <smauerhofer@androsoft.ch> - 2014-02-19 03:35 -0800
              Re: Forth in oblivion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-02-20 10:06 -0600
          Re: Forth in oblivion "Stanley Daniel de Liver" <notagoodone@invalid.org.invalid> - 2014-02-23 21:17 +0000
            Re: Forth in oblivion "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-02-24 01:18 -0500
              Re: Forth in oblivion "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-02-23 21:44 -1000
                Re: Forth in oblivion hostilefork@gmail.com - 2014-03-02 04:36 -0800
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-03 14:30 -0500
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] hostilefork@gmail.com - 2014-03-03 15:34 -0800
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-03-03 16:53 -0800
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] hostilefork@gmail.com - 2014-03-03 17:10 -0800
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-03-04 10:28 +0000
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-03 21:05 -0500
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] hostilefork@gmail.com - 2014-03-03 18:42 -0800
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] Stefan Mauerhofer <smauerhofer@androsoft.ch> - 2014-03-03 23:54 -0800
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] hostilefork@gmail.com - 2014-03-04 13:49 -0800
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-04 17:23 -0500
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] hostilefork@gmail.com - 2014-03-05 04:02 -0800
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-05 19:01 -0500
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-03-06 02:17 +0000
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-03-06 23:48 -0800
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-07 17:23 -0500
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] hostilefork@gmail.com - 2014-03-08 01:37 -0800
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-08 20:32 -0500
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] Stefan Mauerhofer <smauerhofer@androsoft.ch> - 2014-03-04 22:15 -0800
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-04 16:41 -0500
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-04 17:06 -0500
                Re: Forth in oblivion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-03-05 11:11 -0600
                Re: Forth in oblivion hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-03-07 21:14 -0800
  Re: Forth in oblivion albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-02-18 13:17 +0000

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