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Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion]

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On Sun, 02 Mar 2014 07:36:40 -0500, <hostilefork@gmail.com> wrote:

> [snip, circular reasoning]
>
> I use a Forth-inspired language called Rebol, which also not on the  
> Tiobe index.  But if you've eaten Dannon Yogurt (for example), it may be  
> have been one of the containers packed by robots controlled by software  
> from Atronix Engineering...written in Rebol.  Is that enough to make  
> someone who only knows JavaScript look into why to invest in a better  
> language that isn't mentioned in job listings?
>
> (Let me answer that from experience.  The answer is: no.)
>
> Lately I've been trying to help evangelize a new and exciting  
> Rebol-family language called Red.  And having noticed that traction is  
> not very easy to get with the JavaScript/C#/Java crowd, I've noticed by  
> contrast that enthusiasm seems to build quicker with people who have  
> surveyed lesser-known languages like Forth, Haskell, Haxe, etc.
>
> This inspired me to do some research.  I'd like to get an answer to the  
> question of: "For the dedicated members of the Forth community, what  
> needs is Forth meeting that Rebol (today) and Red (tomorrow) can't meet?"
>

Didn't I ask the same thing here about C, repeatedly? ...

I.e., I don't see how asking the same question about another language
obtains an answer that no one here is willing to provide in regards to C.

> We believe what we're building is a *true* full-stack language;

There are many full-stack languages.  Why is this language "*true*"?

> one binary to rule them all,

That won't work.

Different machines have different architectures and instruction sets.
There will need to be code specific to each platform.  A singular
binary, even if it includes code for multiple architectures, will not
execute on multiple platforms because of conflicts between the executable
binary formats for each platform.  For a single binary to work, you'd need
need some code custom to each OS, at which point, it's no longer a single
binary.  In addition to "one binary to rule them all", you'd have a choice
of a executable loader for each OS, or a JIT compiler for each OS, or an
interpreter for OS.  Coding an executable loader for each OS is not
possible for modern OSes due to security.  that leaves JIT compiler, like
Java, or an interpreter, like Forth.  At which point, you must ask why
are you "reinventing the wheel"?

You may need to look at TenDRA's ANDF and Java's VM to understand
how to implement write once, execute anywhere, software.  You could
also look at a stack-based interpreter, like Forth.

> zero-install,

You have to obtain resources, like memory, from the OS.  This may be
temporary or transient in nature instead of permanent, but that doesn't
mean the language wasn't installed, temporarily.

> cross-compiling,

Why?  Why would you even need this?

I.e., this completely contradicts your "one binary to rule them all"
theory.  You wouldn't need cross-compiling *at all* if your "one binary
to rule them all" theory actually worked in reality.

> under 1 megabyte.

Stack?  Slower than registers ...
Interpreted?  Slow ...
Compressed?  Slow ...
JIT compiling?  Slow ...
Virtual machine?  Slowest ...

> Is that crazypants?

What's the point?

> Might sound it, but it's a real thing!
>
> http://www.red-lang.org/p/contributions.html
...

> [big snip, un-exciting language]
>
> So rather than be in oblivion, I'm wondering if we can team up and share
> knowledge?  We are still at the design input phase for Rebol v.3 (open
> source Apache2 as of 12-Dec-2012!) and Red has been BSD since the
> beginning.  So getting input from Forth users would be great for us.
> We're a friendly and thriving community on StackOverflow chat, and
> there's a good vibe to it:
>

Honestly, I doubt that anyone here read your post due to where you
posted it in this thread.  Most were expecting a reply to Ms. Rather
responding to me being critical, i.e., your post was likely unread.

You should've posted a top level post to discuss Red, Rebol, Haxe, etc.
I.e., start a new thread.  Put the word "ANNOUNCE" or "ANN" in the
subject line.  Mention Rebol, or Red and Haxe, and make some exuberant,
outrageously unrealistic claim in the subject line.  E.g.,

"ANN: REBOL the 1st TRUE stack language will devour the World!
Join us, today Forther and be converted."


Rod Pemberton

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Thread

Forth in oblivion akk <akk@nospam.org> - 2014-02-16 19:21 +0100
  Re: Forth in oblivion Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-16 12:03 -0800
    Re: Forth in oblivion hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-02-16 15:47 -0800
    Re: Forth in oblivion Peter Percival <peterxpercival@hotmail.com> - 2014-03-05 15:25 +0000
  Re: Forth in oblivion visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-02-18 00:06 -0800
    Re: Forth in oblivion "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-02-18 06:15 -0500
      Re: Forth in oblivion visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-02-18 09:52 -0800
        Re: Forth in oblivion "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-02-18 18:16 -0500
          Re: Forth in oblivion visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-02-18 19:05 -0800
            Re: Forth in oblivion AKK <akk@nospam.org> - 2014-02-19 09:47 +0100
            Re: Forth in oblivion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-02-19 04:08 -0600
            Re: Forth in oblivion "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-02-19 05:39 -0500
          Re: Forth in oblivion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-02-19 04:09 -0600
            Re: Forth in oblivion "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-02-19 06:18 -0500
              Re: Forth in oblivion Stefan Mauerhofer <smauerhofer@androsoft.ch> - 2014-02-19 03:35 -0800
              Re: Forth in oblivion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-02-20 10:06 -0600
          Re: Forth in oblivion "Stanley Daniel de Liver" <notagoodone@invalid.org.invalid> - 2014-02-23 21:17 +0000
            Re: Forth in oblivion "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-02-24 01:18 -0500
              Re: Forth in oblivion "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-02-23 21:44 -1000
                Re: Forth in oblivion hostilefork@gmail.com - 2014-03-02 04:36 -0800
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-03 14:30 -0500
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] hostilefork@gmail.com - 2014-03-03 15:34 -0800
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-03-03 16:53 -0800
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] hostilefork@gmail.com - 2014-03-03 17:10 -0800
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-03-04 10:28 +0000
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-03 21:05 -0500
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] hostilefork@gmail.com - 2014-03-03 18:42 -0800
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] Stefan Mauerhofer <smauerhofer@androsoft.ch> - 2014-03-03 23:54 -0800
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] hostilefork@gmail.com - 2014-03-04 13:49 -0800
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-04 17:23 -0500
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] hostilefork@gmail.com - 2014-03-05 04:02 -0800
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-05 19:01 -0500
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-03-06 02:17 +0000
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-03-06 23:48 -0800
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-07 17:23 -0500
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] hostilefork@gmail.com - 2014-03-08 01:37 -0800
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-08 20:32 -0500
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] Stefan Mauerhofer <smauerhofer@androsoft.ch> - 2014-03-04 22:15 -0800
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-04 16:41 -0500
                Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-04 17:06 -0500
                Re: Forth in oblivion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-03-05 11:11 -0600
                Re: Forth in oblivion hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-03-07 21:14 -0800
  Re: Forth in oblivion albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-02-18 13:17 +0000

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