Re: Are stack machines inherently faster?

From	Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Are stack machines inherently faster?
Date	2016-12-01 13:01 -0500
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<o1pohf$13tl$1@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	(1 earlier) <a9e5c3e0-b65e-4c70-a8bf-da3ccf62687b@googlegroups.com> <o1i6fl$tat$1@gioia.aioe.org> <o1kj18$3ia$1@dont-email.me> <o1lshk$ts6$1@dont-email.me> <o1ltek$f1$1@dont-email.me>

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On 2016-11-30 2:01 AM, rickman wrote:
> On 11/30/2016 1:46 AM, Cecil Bayona wrote:
>> On 11/29/2016 12:58 PM, rickman wrote:
>>> On 11/28/2016 4:10 PM, Walter Banks wrote:
>>>> On 2016-11-28 2:00 PM, Manuel Rodriguez wrote:
>>>>> Am Montag, 14. November 2016 03:33:26 UTC+1 schrieb polymorph
>>>>> self:
>>>>>> I am noticing 15,000 context switches per second on my
>>>>>> debian testing linux 4.7 6 cpu amd fx machine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are stack chips misc (?) and thus since fewer instructions,
>>>>>> a 300mhz chip that is a stack machine gets a lot more done
>>>>>> per cycle? or does less work to accomplish the same thing?
>>>>>
>>>>> Recently there was here in the newsgroup a similar question.
>>>>> The thread developed after a while into a direction which
>>>>> uses Bitcoin-mining as perforamance index. The idea is, to
>>>>> compare a stackmachine like the GA144 chipset with a normal
>>>>> CPU or a ASIC in advance that the stackmachine is so fast,
>>>>> that it will outperform all other solution. The conclusion of
>>>>> the thread in the past was, that stackmachine have no
>>>>> significant advantage to ASIC mining so it makes no sense to
>>>>> switch to forth only for speed reasons.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As one more data point. In the ISA development work I have done
>>>> stack machines can often have very compact code but have slower
>>>> execution in the benchmarks we have run.
>>>
>>> I don't know of any particular feature of a stack machine that
>>> allows it to have more compact code.  The way they are often used
>>> to implement Forth may result in smaller code as the typical
>>> Forth program uses smaller modules with little overhead that can
>>> encourage reuse.
>>>
>>> Why do you say stack machines result in smaller code?
>>>
>> One of the Forth CPUs I been playing with the ep32 packs 5
>> instructions to a 32 bit word, no statistics or anything but that
>> has to save some space.
>
> I don't follow at all.  I have looked at instruction sizes from 4
> bits to 18 bits.  My consideration of instruction sizes indicates the
> amount of compression is fairly constant in that the smaller
> instructions are more limited.  A larger instruction size allows for
> a lot more variation and so more can happen in a single
> instruction... or what happens is more tailored.  For example,
> consider the variations of add, subtract, with and without carry.
> The GA144 dispenses with all that and just has an add instruction
> expecting the programmer to add other instructions to implement the
> variations.  The resulting size of your code depends on whether you
> are utilizing the features available when a larger instruction size
> is used.  If your code needs subtract as often as add and utilize
> carry such as in double precision operations.
>
> The observations I made were that code density is impacted more by
> the instruction set fitting the application more than anything else.
>

The comment came out experience we have had with ISA development. Part
of it is the instruction packing possibilities some of it is the code
generation tools that can take advantage of very good data flow
analysis. The trade off between addressing fields and pure operation's
favors operation only instructions for application code.

All things being equal the execution turnout slower. We do know that
this was so generally because of the overhead for the extra steps needed
to execute code.

w..

Thread

Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-13 18:33 -0800
  Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-13 23:02 -0500
    Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-14 16:59 -0800
      Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-14 22:27 -0500
        Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-11-17 06:26 -0800
          Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-11-17 08:08 -0800
            Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? mhx@iae.nl - 2016-11-17 10:52 -0800
              Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-17 09:57 -1000
              Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-17 15:58 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-11-17 16:29 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? john <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-18 08:26 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-11-18 11:17 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-11-18 06:37 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-11-18 15:30 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-27 00:25 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-11-27 05:08 -0500
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-27 15:12 -1000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-27 21:06 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? john <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-28 12:20 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-28 13:43 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-28 08:52 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-28 17:19 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-28 11:58 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-28 20:39 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? john <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-28 21:56 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-28 23:22 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? john <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-29 11:06 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-29 09:44 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-02 13:07 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-28 19:37 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-28 19:02 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-29 14:41 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-29 21:32 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 12:43 -0500
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-29 18:38 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 13:57 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-02 16:50 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-12-01 00:19 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? mhx@iae.nl - 2016-11-18 10:58 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-11-19 11:29 +1100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-18 18:18 -1000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-19 00:31 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-20 14:02 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-20 23:16 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-22 09:51 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2016-11-24 14:16 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-25 15:26 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-11-19 17:42 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-21 14:26 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-11-22 10:38 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-24 12:46 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-11-24 15:15 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-24 14:30 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-11-25 05:37 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-25 09:58 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-11-26 10:39 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-11-25 12:26 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-11-26 10:57 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-11-26 13:40 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-12-01 05:35 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-01 18:38 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-12-01 21:52 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-12-02 08:45 +0200
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-02 08:50 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-02 10:34 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? john <anon@example.com> - 2016-12-02 10:20 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-02 10:04 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-12-02 11:59 +0200
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-02 10:44 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-12-02 13:23 +0200
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2016-12-02 15:12 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-12-03 17:35 +0200
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-01-09 10:31 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-01-09 12:01 +0200
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-01-09 13:53 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-01-09 14:59 +0200
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? minforth@arcor.de - 2017-01-09 08:15 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-01-09 19:33 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-12-03 01:58 -0500
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-12-02 21:09 -1000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-03 13:01 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-04 14:51 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-12-02 04:28 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-11-25 16:10 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-25 16:51 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-26 15:09 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-26 13:03 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2016-11-27 10:11 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-25 16:00 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-11-24 22:44 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-24 23:11 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-24 16:38 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-11-25 07:28 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-11-25 04:24 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-25 14:37 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-11-26 10:54 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? luser droog <mijoryx@yahoo.com> - 2016-11-27 10:56 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-27 00:27 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? luser droog <mijoryx@yahoo.com> - 2016-11-27 11:42 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-21 14:35 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-11-22 17:43 +1100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? john <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-22 12:51 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-24 13:30 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-18 20:27 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-27 00:23 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-27 00:22 -0800
            Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-17 12:50 -0800
              Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-27 00:22 -0800
  Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Manuel Rodriguez <aa5@gmx.net> - 2016-11-28 11:00 -0800
    Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-11-28 16:10 -0500
      Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 13:58 -0500
        Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-11-30 00:46 -0600
          Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-30 02:01 -0500
            Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-12-01 13:01 -0500
              Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-03 17:15 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-12-04 02:29 -0500
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-04 03:41 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-12-04 10:10 -0500
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-04 17:16 +0000
    Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-28 13:33 -0800
      Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-28 23:17 +0100
      Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 09:17 -0800
        Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 14:46 -0500
          Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 13:44 -0800
            Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 18:39 -0500
              Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2016-11-30 15:00 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-30 18:42 -0500
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-30 14:26 -1000
      Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 13:58 -0500

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