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Re: Are stack machines inherently faster?

From Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Are stack machines inherently faster?
Date 2016-12-03 01:58 -0500
Organization Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID <20161203015822.3ebc730e@_> (permalink)
References (7 earlier) <8da27e1a-b79b-4c9e-a02f-2d806f3fcf65@googlegroups.com> <o1r581$7s6$1@dont-email.me> <2016Dec2.095019@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <o1rgk9$8it$1@dont-email.me> <2016Dec2.114421@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>

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On Fri, 02 Dec 2016 10:44:21 GMT
anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) wrote:

> Concerning the software, there is the myth and dream of a pure Forth
> software base that consumes much less resources.

Even if that Forth dream of fewer resources was true, which I doubt,
transformative technologies can't simply be equivalent, or marginally
superior, or be a substitute good.  They must be radically superior in
order to displace the "good enough" solution that's currently in use.

Also, in the time that is needed to implement such a system, existing
microprocessors will double in speed, perhaps multiple times. So, the
real goal becomes designing a Forth processor and computer that is
perhaps 3200% faster than what exists today just to match the growth of
existing processors 5 years in the future.  For this computer to be
transformative, it would need to be 10 years ahead of it's time, and be
developed in under five years.  Such rapid advancement is usually a
nearly insurmountable goal.

> A problem with having your own OS kernel is that there is a huge
> amount of hardware that you would need to have drivers for; even Linux
> has this problem to some extent for the hardware in various smartphone
> SoCs.

Yes, the "simple" computing hardware of the 8-bit microprocessor
computer era has been over for a long time now.  Forth as an OS is
doable and has been done, but is not realistic for modern computer
users simply due to the lack of Forth software.  Situations which have
dedicated Forth applications are fine, e.g., embedded.

> Anyway, using a Linux kernel seems to be a good way to
> circumvent this problem; it costs some memory, but the speed is ok in
> my experience.
> 
> So, the next step is to have the user space in Forth.

...

> Then one would have to write all the applications in Forth.

What's wrong with translation of C code? e.g., C2Forth etc.  It would
require far less time to convert C code to Forth than to write Forth
code from scratch.  Many translated programs wouldn't need any further
work, i.e., low-use or no need for major improvements.  Only a few
programs would likely need to be coded in Forth from nothing.  This
would likely either be for efficiency or code maintainability.


Rod Pemberton

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Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-13 18:33 -0800
  Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-13 23:02 -0500
    Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-14 16:59 -0800
      Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-14 22:27 -0500
        Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-11-17 06:26 -0800
          Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-11-17 08:08 -0800
            Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? mhx@iae.nl - 2016-11-17 10:52 -0800
              Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-17 09:57 -1000
              Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-17 15:58 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-11-17 16:29 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? john <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-18 08:26 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-11-18 11:17 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-11-18 06:37 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-11-18 15:30 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-27 00:25 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-11-27 05:08 -0500
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-27 15:12 -1000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-27 21:06 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? john <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-28 12:20 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-28 13:43 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-28 08:52 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-28 17:19 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-28 11:58 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-28 20:39 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? john <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-28 21:56 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-28 23:22 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? john <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-29 11:06 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-29 09:44 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-02 13:07 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-28 19:37 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-28 19:02 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-29 14:41 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-29 21:32 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 12:43 -0500
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-29 18:38 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 13:57 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-02 16:50 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-12-01 00:19 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? mhx@iae.nl - 2016-11-18 10:58 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-11-19 11:29 +1100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-18 18:18 -1000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-19 00:31 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-20 14:02 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-20 23:16 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-22 09:51 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2016-11-24 14:16 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-25 15:26 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-11-19 17:42 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-21 14:26 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-11-22 10:38 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-24 12:46 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-11-24 15:15 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-24 14:30 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-11-25 05:37 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-25 09:58 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-11-26 10:39 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-11-25 12:26 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-11-26 10:57 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-11-26 13:40 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-12-01 05:35 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-01 18:38 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-12-01 21:52 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-12-02 08:45 +0200
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-02 08:50 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-02 10:34 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? john <anon@example.com> - 2016-12-02 10:20 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-02 10:04 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-12-02 11:59 +0200
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-02 10:44 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-12-02 13:23 +0200
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2016-12-02 15:12 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-12-03 17:35 +0200
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-01-09 10:31 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-01-09 12:01 +0200
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-01-09 13:53 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-01-09 14:59 +0200
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? minforth@arcor.de - 2017-01-09 08:15 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-01-09 19:33 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-12-03 01:58 -0500
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-12-02 21:09 -1000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-03 13:01 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-04 14:51 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-12-02 04:28 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-11-25 16:10 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-25 16:51 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-26 15:09 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-26 13:03 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2016-11-27 10:11 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-25 16:00 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-11-24 22:44 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-24 23:11 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-24 16:38 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-11-25 07:28 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-11-25 04:24 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-25 14:37 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-11-26 10:54 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? luser droog <mijoryx@yahoo.com> - 2016-11-27 10:56 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-27 00:27 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? luser droog <mijoryx@yahoo.com> - 2016-11-27 11:42 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-21 14:35 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-11-22 17:43 +1100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? john <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-22 12:51 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-24 13:30 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-18 20:27 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-27 00:23 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-27 00:22 -0800
            Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-17 12:50 -0800
              Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-27 00:22 -0800
  Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Manuel Rodriguez <aa5@gmx.net> - 2016-11-28 11:00 -0800
    Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-11-28 16:10 -0500
      Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 13:58 -0500
        Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-11-30 00:46 -0600
          Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-30 02:01 -0500
            Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-12-01 13:01 -0500
              Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-03 17:15 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-12-04 02:29 -0500
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-04 03:41 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-12-04 10:10 -0500
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-04 17:16 +0000
    Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-28 13:33 -0800
      Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-28 23:17 +0100
      Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 09:17 -0800
        Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 14:46 -0500
          Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 13:44 -0800
            Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 18:39 -0500
              Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2016-11-30 15:00 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-30 18:42 -0500
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-30 14:26 -1000
      Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 13:58 -0500

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