Re: Are stack machines inherently faster?

From	rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Are stack machines inherently faster?
Date	2016-11-29 14:46 -0500
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<o1klsg$gcd$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	<40b9c778-3a98-450b-b65b-6cbaee444921@googlegroups.com> <a9e5c3e0-b65e-4c70-a8bf-da3ccf62687b@googlegroups.com> <87eg1v8f2q.fsf@nightsong.com> <1d0f8bd6-5c05-4e71-9b35-1ac8fb84dad8@googlegroups.com>

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On 11/29/2016 12:17 PM, Brad Eckert wrote:
> On Monday, November 28, 2016 at 2:33:35 PM UTC-7, Paul Rubin wrote:
>> Manuel Rodriguez <aa5@gmx.net> writes:
>>> The idea is, to compare a stackmachine like the GA144 chipset
>>> with a normal CPU or a ASIC ...  stackmachine have no significant
>>> advantage to ASIC mining so it makes no sense to switch to forth
>>> only for speed reasons.
>>
>> Of course an ASIC will be faster.  Much more interesting is how
>> GA144 compares to a normal CPU or FPGA with a comparable fab
>> process.
>
> Since the GA144 is built on 180nm and CPUs and FPGAs are built on
> much smaller process, we may never know. Every time I've tried to
> justify a GA144 in a project, I could never do it. I think, though,
> that the GA144's claim to fame is power savings through asynchronous
> logic.

I think the low power aspect of the GA144 is greatly overstated.  While 
it looks good on paper, there are other aspects of the GA144 that reduce 
the benefit.  For example, to communicate, any nodes that are not 
adjacent must use other nodes as passthroughs.  Each running node uses 
some mA while running so the impact can be considerable in some designs.

> Chips are getting so dense nowadays that you can only pack
> circuits so tightly because of the heat they generate. Async
> processing solves this.

Async processors does nothing to solve this.  The circuit is only low 
power when it is not running.  If you have trouble getting rid of the 
heat when running full tilt you have a chip that you can't use to its 
full capacity.

> Unfortunately, making tiny little Forth
> machines throws away the efficiency gain by simulating the hardware
> you want instead of implementing it directly. OKAD should be used to
> design cores that people want, such as GPUs.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.  A stack processor is a processor 
the same as any other.  Why do you need to simulate hardware on it?

> Specialized processing, such as the GPU in your phone, is what's
> keeping Moore's Law alive. The cost per computation is still halving
> every 18 months even though process shrinks are approaching a dead
> end because more and more processing is done on dedicated hardware
> rather than general purpose CPUs.

I don't follow this conclusion either.  Why would Moore's law only apply 
to CPUs and not other hardware?

> Speaking of Moore's Law, the cost per calculation curve goes back
> through vacuum tubes, relays, and gears to the quill pen. In the
> quill pen domain, it goes back through the discovery of ever more
> powerful mathematical methods. For all we know, it could go back to
> people writing tally marks on a cave wall. BTW, the Moore's Law
> expression of 2^1.5*y is curiously close to Phi^y. It could be that
> cost per computation goes down by the golden ratio Phi year after
> year as one of nature's Fibonacci growth spirals. If you like a
> little mysticism with your computing.

I'm a bit lost.  The golden ratio is around 1.6.  2^1.5 is 2.8.  That's 
not very close.  I think your formula should have been 2^(y/1.5).  That 
would be 1.587^y which is very close to the golden ratio.

-- 

Rick C

Thread

Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-13 18:33 -0800
  Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-13 23:02 -0500
    Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-14 16:59 -0800
      Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-14 22:27 -0500
        Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-11-17 06:26 -0800
          Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-11-17 08:08 -0800
            Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? mhx@iae.nl - 2016-11-17 10:52 -0800
              Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-17 09:57 -1000
              Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-17 15:58 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-11-17 16:29 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? john <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-18 08:26 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-11-18 11:17 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-11-18 06:37 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-11-18 15:30 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-27 00:25 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-11-27 05:08 -0500
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-27 15:12 -1000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-27 21:06 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? john <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-28 12:20 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-28 13:43 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-28 08:52 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-28 17:19 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-28 11:58 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-28 20:39 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? john <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-28 21:56 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-28 23:22 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? john <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-29 11:06 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-29 09:44 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-02 13:07 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-28 19:37 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-28 19:02 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-29 14:41 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-29 21:32 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 12:43 -0500
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-29 18:38 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 13:57 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-02 16:50 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-12-01 00:19 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? mhx@iae.nl - 2016-11-18 10:58 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-11-19 11:29 +1100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-18 18:18 -1000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-19 00:31 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-20 14:02 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-20 23:16 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-22 09:51 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2016-11-24 14:16 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-25 15:26 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-11-19 17:42 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-21 14:26 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-11-22 10:38 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-24 12:46 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-11-24 15:15 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-24 14:30 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-11-25 05:37 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-25 09:58 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-11-26 10:39 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-11-25 12:26 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-11-26 10:57 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-11-26 13:40 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-12-01 05:35 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-01 18:38 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-12-01 21:52 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-12-02 08:45 +0200
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-02 08:50 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-02 10:34 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? john <anon@example.com> - 2016-12-02 10:20 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-02 10:04 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-12-02 11:59 +0200
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-02 10:44 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-12-02 13:23 +0200
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2016-12-02 15:12 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-12-03 17:35 +0200
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-01-09 10:31 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-01-09 12:01 +0200
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-01-09 13:53 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-01-09 14:59 +0200
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? minforth@arcor.de - 2017-01-09 08:15 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-01-09 19:33 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-12-03 01:58 -0500
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-12-02 21:09 -1000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-03 13:01 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-04 14:51 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-12-02 04:28 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-11-25 16:10 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-25 16:51 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-26 15:09 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-26 13:03 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2016-11-27 10:11 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-25 16:00 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-11-24 22:44 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-24 23:11 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-24 16:38 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-11-25 07:28 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-11-25 04:24 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-25 14:37 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-11-26 10:54 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? luser droog <mijoryx@yahoo.com> - 2016-11-27 10:56 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-27 00:27 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? luser droog <mijoryx@yahoo.com> - 2016-11-27 11:42 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-21 14:35 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-11-22 17:43 +1100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? john <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-22 12:51 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-24 13:30 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-18 20:27 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-27 00:23 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-27 00:22 -0800
            Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-17 12:50 -0800
              Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-27 00:22 -0800
  Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Manuel Rodriguez <aa5@gmx.net> - 2016-11-28 11:00 -0800
    Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-11-28 16:10 -0500
      Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 13:58 -0500
        Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-11-30 00:46 -0600
          Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-30 02:01 -0500
            Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-12-01 13:01 -0500
              Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-03 17:15 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-12-04 02:29 -0500
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-04 03:41 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-12-04 10:10 -0500
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-04 17:16 +0000
    Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-28 13:33 -0800
      Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-28 23:17 +0100
      Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 09:17 -0800
        Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 14:46 -0500
          Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 13:44 -0800
            Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 18:39 -0500
              Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2016-11-30 15:00 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-30 18:42 -0500
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-30 14:26 -1000
      Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 13:58 -0500

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