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Re: Are stack machines inherently faster?

From anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Are stack machines inherently faster?
Date 2016-12-04 14:51 +0000
Organization Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien
Message-ID <2016Dec4.155142@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> (permalink)
References (6 earlier) <o1r581$7s6$1@dont-email.me> <2016Dec2.095019@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <o1rgk9$8it$1@dont-email.me> <2016Dec2.114421@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <20161203015822.3ebc730e@_>

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Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> writes:
>On Fri, 02 Dec 2016 10:44:21 GMT
>anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) wrote:
>
>> Concerning the software, there is the myth and dream of a pure Forth
>> software base that consumes much less resources.
>
>Even if that Forth dream of fewer resources was true, which I doubt,
>transformative technologies can't simply be equivalent, or marginally
>superior, or be a substitute good.  They must be radically superior in
>order to displace the "good enough" solution that's currently in use.
>
>Also, in the time that is needed to implement such a system, existing
>microprocessors will double in speed, perhaps multiple times. So, the
>real goal becomes designing a Forth processor and computer that is
>perhaps 3200% faster than what exists today just to match the growth of
>existing processors 5 years in the future.

Even in the glory days of Dennard scaling, we did not get 3200% in 5
years (e.g., from a P54CS (1995) to an Athlon 800 (2000) we got a
speedup by a factor 10.6 on our LaTeX benchmark
<https://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/franz/latex-bench>).  Since that
has stopped, single-core speeds have improved very slowly.  E.g., an
upgrade from a 2008 Core 2 Duo E8400 to a 2016 Core i7-6700K gives a
speedup by a factor 2.4 when running LaTeX.

And anyway, software written in Forth will profit from the hardware
improvements just as any other software.

If you are thinking of Forth-based hardware, I have my doubts that it
will provide a significant benefit, except maybe in the extreme
low-power area; and if we can write useful software with huge number
of threads (each consuming little memory bandwidth), maybe the small
size of a stack-based core can help produce a useful many-core CPU;
but the GA144 is too limited for that.

>What's wrong with translation of C code? e.g., C2Forth etc.

It will not consume fewer resources.  Also, another important element
in the dream of a pure Forth software base is the purity, and that
would be missing in that scenario.

Such a compiler would help creating a wider market for Forth hardware,
though.

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2016: http://www.euroforth.org/ef16/

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Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-13 18:33 -0800
  Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-13 23:02 -0500
    Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-14 16:59 -0800
      Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-14 22:27 -0500
        Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-11-17 06:26 -0800
          Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-11-17 08:08 -0800
            Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? mhx@iae.nl - 2016-11-17 10:52 -0800
              Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-17 09:57 -1000
              Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-17 15:58 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-11-17 16:29 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? john <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-18 08:26 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-11-18 11:17 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-11-18 06:37 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-11-18 15:30 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-27 00:25 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-11-27 05:08 -0500
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-27 15:12 -1000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-27 21:06 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? john <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-28 12:20 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-28 13:43 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-28 08:52 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-28 17:19 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-28 11:58 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-28 20:39 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? john <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-28 21:56 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-28 23:22 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? john <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-29 11:06 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-29 09:44 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-02 13:07 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-28 19:37 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-28 19:02 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-29 14:41 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-29 21:32 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 12:43 -0500
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-29 18:38 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 13:57 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-02 16:50 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-12-01 00:19 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? mhx@iae.nl - 2016-11-18 10:58 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-11-19 11:29 +1100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-18 18:18 -1000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-19 00:31 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-20 14:02 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-20 23:16 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-22 09:51 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2016-11-24 14:16 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-25 15:26 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-11-19 17:42 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-21 14:26 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-11-22 10:38 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-24 12:46 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-11-24 15:15 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-24 14:30 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-11-25 05:37 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-25 09:58 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-11-26 10:39 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-11-25 12:26 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-11-26 10:57 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-11-26 13:40 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-12-01 05:35 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-01 18:38 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-12-01 21:52 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-12-02 08:45 +0200
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-02 08:50 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-02 10:34 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? john <anon@example.com> - 2016-12-02 10:20 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-02 10:04 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-12-02 11:59 +0200
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-02 10:44 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-12-02 13:23 +0200
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2016-12-02 15:12 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-12-03 17:35 +0200
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-01-09 10:31 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-01-09 12:01 +0200
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-01-09 13:53 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-01-09 14:59 +0200
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? minforth@arcor.de - 2017-01-09 08:15 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-01-09 19:33 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-12-03 01:58 -0500
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-12-02 21:09 -1000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-03 13:01 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-04 14:51 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-12-02 04:28 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-11-25 16:10 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-25 16:51 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-26 15:09 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-26 13:03 +0100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2016-11-27 10:11 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-25 16:00 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-11-24 22:44 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-24 23:11 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-24 16:38 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-11-25 07:28 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-11-25 04:24 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-25 14:37 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-11-26 10:54 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? luser droog <mijoryx@yahoo.com> - 2016-11-27 10:56 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-27 00:27 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? luser droog <mijoryx@yahoo.com> - 2016-11-27 11:42 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-21 14:35 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-11-22 17:43 +1100
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? john <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-22 12:51 +0000
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-24 13:30 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-18 20:27 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-27 00:23 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-27 00:22 -0800
            Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-17 12:50 -0800
              Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? polymorph self <jackvanc3@gmail.com> - 2016-11-27 00:22 -0800
  Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Manuel Rodriguez <aa5@gmx.net> - 2016-11-28 11:00 -0800
    Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-11-28 16:10 -0500
      Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 13:58 -0500
        Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-11-30 00:46 -0600
          Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-30 02:01 -0500
            Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-12-01 13:01 -0500
              Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-03 17:15 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-12-04 02:29 -0500
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-04 03:41 -0600
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-12-04 10:10 -0500
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-04 17:16 +0000
    Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-28 13:33 -0800
      Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-28 23:17 +0100
      Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 09:17 -0800
        Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 14:46 -0500
          Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 13:44 -0800
            Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 18:39 -0500
              Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2016-11-30 15:00 -0800
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-30 18:42 -0500
                Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-30 14:26 -1000
      Re: Are stack machines inherently faster? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 13:58 -0500

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