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Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips

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Andrew Haley wrote:
> That's true if you solve problems in the same way in both languages,
> but IME you probably don't: Forth and C encourage different problem-
> solving styles, in particular the way that programs are factored, so
> the solutions aren't going to be the same.  It's hard to define this
> in a precise way, but IMO there is such a thing as Forthly design.

One key aspect of why Forth programs are often much smaller than programs in 
other languages trying to solve a similar problem is the "redefine the 
problem" approach. The problem in many IT projects is not very well-defined, 
and therefore, people tend to build in a lot of what Brooks calls 
"accidental complexity" into their products. Different languages stipulate 
different ways to deal with complexity.

Java programmers tend to write adapter classes to proxy factories, or any 
other combination of "design pattern" they have learned. Abstractions are 
seen as a value of their own, so they are build in the midth of free air.  
The programs are somewhat maintainable, but large and slow.  The real work 
is often delegated to a C++ native function.  Each layer of abstraction adds 
bugs to the system.

Fortran programmers (and you can write Fortran programs in any language) 
tend to write long linear stuff that does one thing after the other, 
everything broken down to the primitives of the language.  The programs are 
unmaintainable, large, but usually quite fast.  The real work is delegated 
to a library written 40 years ago.  Each change adds bugs to the system, 
which means the whole program is very fragile.

One should mention that every programmer spends more time debugging his 
stuff than writing.  Ease of debugging and trying different approaches is a 
strength rarely found.  Forth's style is to do only what's needed, and to do 
experiments - both with the code and with the spec.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-09-27 14:52 -0700
  Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-09-27 12:35 -1000
    Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-10-02 00:01 +0200
      Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-02 00:35 -0700
        Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 04:00 -0400
      Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-10-02 01:34 -0700
        Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-02 07:30 -0700
      Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-10-02 10:26 +0000
        Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Bill Richards <billrich@gmx.com> - 2013-10-02 14:41 +0000
          Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-02 08:25 -0700
            Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 23:13 -0400
        Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-10-25 12:46 +0200
      Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-11-06 17:00 -0800
  Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-10-04 08:09 -0700
    Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-10-05 11:45 +1000
    Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-11-17 13:55 -0800
  Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> - 2013-10-15 16:45 -0700
    Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Spam@ControlQ.com - 2013-10-16 11:20 -0400
      Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-10-17 12:03 +0000
        Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Spam@ControlQ.com - 2013-10-17 11:40 -0400
          Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-10-17 19:58 +0000
            Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Spam@ControlQ.com - 2013-10-17 17:22 -0400
              Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-10-17 11:45 -1000
                Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Spam@ControlQ.com - 2013-10-18 13:33 -0400
                Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-11-17 14:15 -0800
            Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-10-18 04:02 -0400
              Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Stefan Mauerhofer <smauerhofer@androsoft.ch> - 2013-10-18 07:01 -0700
                Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-10-18 08:53 -1000
                Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips c-gschuette@neogov.net - 2013-11-07 09:24 -0800
                Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-11-07 07:38 -1000
                Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2013-11-07 20:07 -0500
                Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-11-16 10:00 -0800
                Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2013-11-16 17:22 -0500
                Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-11-16 13:53 -1000
                Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-11-17 04:17 -0600
                Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-11-17 15:21 +0100
                Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-11-17 08:55 -1000
                Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-11-17 16:13 -0600
                Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-11-17 12:37 -1000
                Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-10-18 21:19 -0400
                Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-11-17 14:28 -0800
                Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-11-17 14:34 -0800
        Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-10-17 11:32 -1000
        Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@nohavenotit.com> - 2013-10-18 04:02 -0400
      Re: Id love to surf web with 4megs ram forth pc using forth and forth chips gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-11-17 14:11 -0800

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