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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #52585
| From | anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.forth |
| Subject | Re: Average swaps per word? |
| Date | 2016-11-13 14:55 +0000 |
| Organization | Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien |
| Message-ID | <2016Nov13.155518@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> (permalink) |
| References | <5352ea02-4942-40bf-8c92-e5012aae1807@googlegroups.com> <58236c98.176487035@news.eternal-september.org> <81df7e62-3f3e-4571-821c-218f9abee4ed@googlegroups.com> <2016Nov12.132348@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <o07bak$ru0$1@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> |
albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) writes:
>In article <2016Nov12.132348@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>,
>Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>>Harold <hzrabbie@gmail.com> writes:
>>>What kind of optimization is a compiler allowed to perform? Must the compi=
>>>ler generate a load or store for every occurrence of @ or ! ?
>>
>>If it changes the user-visible behaviour of the program, yes.
>
>I don't think we must be more strict about @/! then about the stack.
Not sure what you mean by that.
>Optimisation is important for turn key programs. If at the exit
>of the program the content of a memory place doesn't have side effects
>(i.e. in fact output), it is allowed to leave out the last `! .
In the usual case there will by @s after the last !, and if you cannot
determine that they read the memory that the last ! stores, you cannot
leave it out.
Otherwise, sure, you can optimize all the !s after the last @ in a
process away. Is this an optimization that is going to save a
significant amount of time? I doubt it.
On a related note, gcc likes to delete stores (including memset()) to
memory that is deallocated afterwards, based on the theory that it
would be undefined to read that memory afterwards, and that this
therefore cannot happen. That was one of the contributing factors to
the Heartbleed vulnerability: The programmers had defensively used
memset() to erase the secrets after using them, that memory was then
deallocated, and gcc therefore "optimized" the memset() away. And
while the following read from that memory (due to a buffer overflow)
was undefined behaviour, it still happened, revealing the secret to
the attacker.
>If `@ and `! themselves have a side effect, they are not in fact memory
>accesses and should be named `P@ and `P! in the program (Port fetch
>and port store) to tip of the optimiser.
Current IA-32 and AMD64 CPUs have memory-type range registers (MTRRs)
and page attribute tables (PATs), and the memory types they support
are uncached, write-through, write-combining, and write-back. And
even with write-back memory, you might want to differentiate between
memory shared between threads and unshared memory. Different
optimizations can be applied for different memory types. Does it pay
off? I suspect not.
>The only conclusion is that we must tip of the compiler.
>For VALUE's besides VARIABLE's we need PTO besides P! and
>what is worse we have to call ports PVALUE's because the
>fetches are implicit.
Given that for a port you want to provide the address (unlike for
VALUE), needing a different word for ports is pretty natural:
0 value x
$dc04 port timera
Concerning TO, we use TO for FVALUEs, 2VALUEs and locals, so it's
pretty natural to also use TO for such PORTs.
>(Which supports my conviction that VALUE's besides VARIABLE's
>is a bad idea. In this case we can get by by insisting that
>VALUEs never ever can be io ports.)
Wrt optimization VALUEs are easier to deal with than VARIABLEs: you
know that the only thing that changes a VALUE is a TO VALUE (at least
if you don't support ADDR v (for a VALUE v)).
- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
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Average swaps per word? trans <transfire@gmail.com> - 2016-11-08 22:03 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-08 20:20 -1000
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-09 08:16 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-11-09 03:34 -0500
Re: Average swaps per word? trans <transfire@gmail.com> - 2016-11-09 02:53 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-09 11:50 -0500
Re: Average swaps per word? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-11-09 18:37 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Harold <hzrabbie@gmail.com> - 2016-11-10 16:28 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-11-11 17:51 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-12 12:23 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-12 16:09 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-13 14:55 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-13 20:34 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-13 11:43 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-13 16:58 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-14 16:41 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-14 16:38 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-14 17:42 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-11-14 16:39 -0500
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-17 12:40 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-17 14:10 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-18 15:14 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-20 18:16 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-22 10:29 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-22 15:54 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-11-22 11:50 -0500
Re: Average swaps per word? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-11-24 17:27 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-15 03:55 -0600
Re: Average swaps per word? Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-11-15 17:49 -0500
Re: Average swaps per word? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-16 02:59 -0600
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-17 13:07 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-16 22:57 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-17 03:12 -0600
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-17 12:32 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-18 15:02 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-17 13:23 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-17 08:54 -0600
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-18 15:54 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-18 12:37 -0600
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-14 17:32 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-15 02:09 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? jim <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-15 10:44 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-15 03:12 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-15 13:01 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-17 12:51 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-17 14:02 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-17 14:06 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-18 15:26 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-18 18:33 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-19 03:32 -0600
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-17 14:29 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-15 13:51 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? jim <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-15 13:01 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-17 12:46 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-17 14:16 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? Harold <hzrabbie@gmail.com> - 2016-11-13 11:08 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-14 17:08 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-15 02:04 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-15 14:04 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-15 14:05 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-17 12:58 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-17 15:16 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-18 15:41 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-20 18:12 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? minforth@arcor.de - 2016-11-09 03:15 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? trans <transfire@gmail.com> - 2016-11-09 11:22 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-11-10 12:20 +1100
Re: Average swaps per word? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-09 21:04 -1000
Re: Average swaps per word? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-10 03:45 -0600
Re: Average swaps per word? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-10 11:52 -0500
Re: Average swaps per word? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-10 11:42 -0600
Re: Average swaps per word? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-10 13:34 -0500
Re: Average swaps per word? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-10 12:54 -0600
Re: Average swaps per word? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-10 16:33 -0500
Re: Average swaps per word? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-10 15:56 -1000
Re: Average swaps per word? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-10 21:30 -0500
Re: Average swaps per word? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-11 03:04 -0600
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-12 13:25 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-14 03:34 -0600
Re: Average swaps per word? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-11-11 10:41 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-11 16:45 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? jim <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-10 11:17 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-11-10 04:34 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? jim <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-10 12:44 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-11-10 07:27 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-11-10 18:26 +0200
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-10 16:05 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-11-10 14:55 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-11-12 11:36 +1100
Re: Average swaps per word? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-11 16:56 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-12 16:14 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-12 12:14 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-12 16:16 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-13 14:51 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-13 20:41 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-10 14:42 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-11 15:54 -0800
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