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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #52505
| From | anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.forth |
| Subject | Re: Average swaps per word? |
| Date | 2016-11-10 14:42 +0000 |
| Organization | Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien |
| Message-ID | <2016Nov10.154254@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> (permalink) |
| References | <5352ea02-4942-40bf-8c92-e5012aae1807@googlegroups.com> <fba26251-20ef-4b0e-a655-b2204093f1df@googlegroups.com> <o00i0v$1a87$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
"HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> writes:
>If you don't have an optimizing compiler, then what?
Then you pay a run-time penalty in addition to the brain load.
>Forth is about
>the stack and the efficient use thereof.
Not primarily. It's about simplicity, and the stack is a means for
that.
>Terms like "stack juggling"
>give newcomers (and the rest of the world) the impression the stack
>is something to be avoided.
Why would it give that expression? Ideally we avoid stack juggling,
not the stack. And we avoid it by using the stack well and designing
the stack effects such that stack juggling is unnecessary or mostly
happens in a few select (low-level) words. The relative scarcity of
SWAP in source code indicates that this works relatively well.
The first code example in Starting Forth is
: washer wash spin rinse spin ;
not
: washer swap wash over spin rot rinse dup spin drop ;
>Optimizing compilers may reduce stack
>operations and/or correct redundancy, however I consider it a bonus
>- not a goal.
For the compiler writer it may be a goal. For the programmer, it's
nice if he can write the code for readability instead of having to
balance this goal against performance (which may or may not be aligned
with readability; consider the 3DUP versions of TAK compared to the
3DUP-less ones).
- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2016: http://www.euroforth.org/ef16/
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Average swaps per word? trans <transfire@gmail.com> - 2016-11-08 22:03 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-08 20:20 -1000
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-09 08:16 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-11-09 03:34 -0500
Re: Average swaps per word? trans <transfire@gmail.com> - 2016-11-09 02:53 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-09 11:50 -0500
Re: Average swaps per word? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-11-09 18:37 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Harold <hzrabbie@gmail.com> - 2016-11-10 16:28 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-11-11 17:51 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-12 12:23 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-12 16:09 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-13 14:55 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-13 20:34 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-13 11:43 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-13 16:58 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-14 16:41 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-14 16:38 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-14 17:42 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-11-14 16:39 -0500
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-17 12:40 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-17 14:10 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-18 15:14 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-20 18:16 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-22 10:29 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-22 15:54 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-11-22 11:50 -0500
Re: Average swaps per word? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-11-24 17:27 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-15 03:55 -0600
Re: Average swaps per word? Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-11-15 17:49 -0500
Re: Average swaps per word? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-16 02:59 -0600
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-17 13:07 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-16 22:57 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-17 03:12 -0600
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-17 12:32 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-18 15:02 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-17 13:23 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-17 08:54 -0600
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-18 15:54 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-18 12:37 -0600
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-14 17:32 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-15 02:09 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? jim <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-15 10:44 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-15 03:12 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-15 13:01 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-17 12:51 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-17 14:02 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-17 14:06 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-18 15:26 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-11-18 18:33 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-19 03:32 -0600
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-17 14:29 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-15 13:51 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? jim <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-15 13:01 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-17 12:46 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-17 14:16 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? Harold <hzrabbie@gmail.com> - 2016-11-13 11:08 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-14 17:08 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-15 02:04 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-15 14:04 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-15 14:05 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-17 12:58 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-17 15:16 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-18 15:41 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-20 18:12 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? minforth@arcor.de - 2016-11-09 03:15 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? trans <transfire@gmail.com> - 2016-11-09 11:22 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-11-10 12:20 +1100
Re: Average swaps per word? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-09 21:04 -1000
Re: Average swaps per word? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-10 03:45 -0600
Re: Average swaps per word? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-10 11:52 -0500
Re: Average swaps per word? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-10 11:42 -0600
Re: Average swaps per word? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-10 13:34 -0500
Re: Average swaps per word? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-10 12:54 -0600
Re: Average swaps per word? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-10 16:33 -0500
Re: Average swaps per word? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-10 15:56 -1000
Re: Average swaps per word? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-10 21:30 -0500
Re: Average swaps per word? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-11 03:04 -0600
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-12 13:25 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-11-14 03:34 -0600
Re: Average swaps per word? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-11-11 10:41 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-11 16:45 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? jim <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-10 11:17 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-11-10 04:34 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? jim <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-10 12:44 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-11-10 07:27 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-11-10 18:26 +0200
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-10 16:05 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-11-10 14:55 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-11-12 11:36 +1100
Re: Average swaps per word? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-11 16:56 -0800
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-12 16:14 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-12 12:14 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-12 16:16 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-13 14:51 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-13 20:41 +0100
Re: Average swaps per word? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-11-10 14:42 +0000
Re: Average swaps per word? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-11 15:54 -0800
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