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Groups > comp.lang.c > #7572 > unrolled thread

C is fixed or not ?

Started byDavid Remacle <listes@NOSpamclampin.com>
First post2011-07-04 07:31 +0000
Last post2011-07-06 16:07 +0100
Articles 20 on this page of 197 — 35 participants

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Contents

  C is fixed or not ? David Remacle <listes@NOSpamclampin.com> - 2011-07-04 07:31 +0000
    Re: C is fixed or not ? China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-04 00:46 -0700
      Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-04 23:03 -0500
        Re: C is fixed or not ? China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-04 21:17 -0700
          Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-07 16:59 -0500
    Re: C is fixed or not ? Chris H <chris@phaedsys.org> - 2011-07-04 09:06 +0100
      Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-04 23:05 -0500
        Re: C is fixed or not ? Chris H <chris@phaedsys.org> - 2011-07-06 08:12 +0100
          Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-07 17:02 -0500
    Re: C is fixed or not ? "Joachim Schmitz" <nospam.jojo@schmitz-digital.de> - 2011-07-04 10:17 +0200
    Re: C is fixed or not ? Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2011-07-04 11:37 +0200
    Re: C is fixed or not ? Chris H <chris@phaedsys.org> - 2011-07-04 11:31 +0100
    Re: C is fixed or not ? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2011-07-04 08:01 -0700
      Re: C is fixed or not ? Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2011-07-04 17:29 +0200
        Re: C is fixed or not ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-07-04 12:01 -0400
          Re: C is fixed or not ? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-04 19:20 +0200
            Re: C is fixed or not ? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-05 07:53 +1200
              Re: C is fixed or not ? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-04 22:39 +0200
                Re: C is fixed or not ? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-05 15:33 +1200
                  Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-04 23:32 -0500
                Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-04 23:28 -0500
                  Re: C is fixed or not ? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-05 07:29 +0200
                    Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-07 17:17 -0500
                  Re: C is fixed or not ? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-07-06 03:37 +0100
                    Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-07 17:21 -0500
                Re: C is fixed or not ? lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2011-07-06 00:09 -0400
                  Re: C is fixed or not ? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-06 07:59 +0200
                  Re: C is fixed or not ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-07-05 23:52 -0700
                    Re: C is fixed or not ? lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2011-07-06 11:20 -0400
                      Re: C is fixed or not ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-07-06 09:30 -0700
                      Re: C is fixed or not ? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-07 08:16 +1200
                        Re: C is fixed or not ? Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2011-07-07 11:13 -0400
                          Re: C is fixed or not ? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-07 17:23 +0200
                            Re: C is fixed or not ? jameskuyper <jameskuyper@gmail.com> - 2011-07-08 08:11 -0700
              Re: C is fixed or not ? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-07-06 03:21 +0100
                Re: C is fixed or not ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-07-05 19:41 -0700
                  Re: C is fixed or not ? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-07-06 04:15 +0100
                    Re: C is fixed or not ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-07-05 23:42 -0400
                      Re: C is fixed or not ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-07-06 08:44 -0400
                      Re: C is fixed or not ? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-07-06 15:00 +0100
                        Re: C is fixed or not ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-07-06 23:22 -0400
                        Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-07 22:23 -0500
                      Re: C is fixed or not ? lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2011-07-06 11:32 -0400
                        Re: C is fixed or not ? ImpalerCore <jadill33@gmail.com> - 2011-07-06 10:27 -0700
                          Re: C is fixed or not ? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-06 19:41 +0200
                            Re: C is fixed or not ? lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2011-07-07 00:19 -0400
                              Re: C is fixed or not ? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-07 09:24 +0200
                                Re: C is fixed or not ? lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2011-07-10 16:27 -0400
                        Re: C is fixed or not ? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-07-07 00:21 +0100
                          Re: C is fixed or not ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-07-06 23:20 -0400
                            Re: C is fixed or not ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-07-07 00:04 -0400
                              Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-07 22:52 -0500
                                Re: C is fixed or not ? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-07 23:47 -0500
                                  Re: C is fixed or not ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-07-08 01:59 -0400
                          Re: C is fixed or not ? lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2011-07-07 00:22 -0400
                            Re: C is fixed or not ? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-07-07 15:25 +0100
                              Re: C is fixed or not ? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-08 08:01 +1200
                                Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-07 22:59 -0500
                              Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-07 22:57 -0500
                              Re: C is fixed or not ? lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2011-07-10 16:03 -0400
                                Re: C is fixed or not ? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-11 08:19 +1200
                                  Re: C is fixed or not ? lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2011-07-12 00:31 -0400
                                    Re: C is fixed or not ? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-12 19:39 +1200
                                      Re: C is fixed or not ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-07-12 06:06 -0400
                                        Re: C is fixed or not ? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-12 22:14 +1200
                            Re: C is fixed or not ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-07-07 19:11 -0400
                          Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-07 22:49 -0500
                        Re: C is fixed or not ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-07-06 17:05 -0700
                          Re: C is fixed or not ? lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2011-07-07 00:27 -0400
                            Re: C is fixed or not ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-07-07 06:39 -0400
                              Re: C is fixed or not ? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-07 12:45 +0200
                              POSIX threads hard to implement in Windows (was: C is fixed or not ?) Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2011-07-07 15:17 +0200
                                Re: POSIX threads hard to implement in Windows William Ahern <william@wilbur.25thandClement.com> - 2011-07-07 11:21 -0700
                                  Re: POSIX threads hard to implement in Windows Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-08 08:07 +1200
                                    Re: POSIX threads hard to implement in Windows Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-07 16:01 -0500
                                      Re: POSIX threads hard to implement in Windows "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-07 21:12 -0500
                                        Re: POSIX threads hard to implement in Windows Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-07 23:33 -0500
                                          Re: POSIX threads hard to implement in Windows "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-07 23:49 -0500
                                        Re: POSIX threads hard to implement in Windows BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2011-08-03 07:32 -0700
                                    Re: POSIX threads hard to implement in Windows William Ahern <william@wilbur.25thandClement.com> - 2011-07-07 15:06 -0700
                                  Re: POSIX threads hard to implement in Windows lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2011-07-10 16:08 -0400
                                    Re: POSIX threads hard to implement in Windows William Ahern <william@wilbur.25thandClement.com> - 2011-07-10 16:09 -0700
                                      Re: POSIX threads hard to implement in Windows James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-07-11 06:20 -0400
                                        Re: POSIX threads hard to implement in Windows Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-11 22:36 +1200
                                    Re: POSIX threads hard to implement in Windows scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2011-07-11 16:18 +0000
                                Re: POSIX threads hard to implement in Windows (was: C is fixed or not ?) Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2011-07-07 19:01 -0700
                                Re: POSIX threads hard to implement in Windows (was: C is fixed or not ?) "Ersek, Laszlo" <lacos@caesar.elte.hu> - 2011-07-14 23:05 +0200
                            Re: C is fixed or not ? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-07-07 15:30 +0100
                              Re: C is fixed or not ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-07-07 11:00 -0400
                              Re: C is fixed or not ? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-07 13:30 -0500
                                Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-07 21:30 -0500
                                  Re: C is fixed or not ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-07-08 02:34 -0400
                                Re: C is fixed or not ? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-07-13 01:35 +0100
                                  Re: C is fixed or not ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-07-12 22:30 -0400
                              Re: C is fixed or not ? "J. J. Farrell" <jjf@bcs.org.uk> - 2011-07-10 01:31 +0100
                                Windows Posix Support (was Re: C is fixed or not ?) Todd Carnes <toddcarnes@gmail.com> - 2011-07-10 01:06 +0000
                                Re: C is fixed or not ? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-07-13 01:25 +0100
                                  Re: C is fixed or not ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-07-12 22:50 -0400
                                  Re: C is fixed or not ? lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2011-07-13 17:27 -0400
                                  Re: C is fixed or not ? "J. J. Farrell" <jjf@bcs.org.uk> - 2011-07-16 03:00 +0100
                        Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-07 22:35 -0500
                  Re: C is fixed or not ? "christian.bau" <christian.bau@cbau.wanadoo.co.uk> - 2011-07-06 17:24 -0700
                    Re: C is fixed or not ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-07-07 07:02 -0400
                Re: C is fixed or not ? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-06 14:46 +1200
                  Re: C is fixed or not ? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-07-06 04:04 +0100
                  Re: C is fixed or not ? Jens Gustedt <Jens.Gustedt@loria.fr> - 2011-07-06 09:25 +0200
            Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-04 23:20 -0500
              Re: C is fixed or not ? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-05 07:33 +0200
                Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-07 17:49 -0500
            Re: C is fixed or not ? jameskuyper <jameskuyper@gmail.com> - 2011-07-05 14:47 -0700
              Re: C is fixed or not ? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-07-06 03:11 +0100
                Re: C is fixed or not ? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-06 14:26 +1200
                  Re: C is fixed or not ? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-07-06 04:00 +0100
                    Re: C is fixed or not ? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-06 15:22 +1200
                      Re: C is fixed or not ? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-07-06 14:36 +0100
                        Re: C is fixed or not ? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-07 07:56 +1200
                          Re: C is fixed or not ? Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-07-08 02:15 +0300
                            Re: C is fixed or not ? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-08 15:31 +1200
                Re: C is fixed or not ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-07-05 23:29 -0400
                  Re: C is fixed or not ? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-07-06 14:34 +0100
                  Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-07 22:00 -0500
                    Re: C is fixed or not ? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-07-08 13:20 +0100
                      Re: C is fixed or not ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-07-08 10:47 -0400
                        Re: C is fixed or not ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-07-08 11:07 -0400
                      Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-08 14:56 -0500
                    Re: C is fixed or not ? Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-13 07:50 -0700
                      Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-14 21:00 -0500
                        Re: C is fixed or not ? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-15 14:29 +1200
                          Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-14 22:58 -0500
                            Re: C is fixed or not ? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2011-07-15 11:31 +0100
                              Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-15 21:49 -0500
                                Re: C is fixed or not ? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-16 15:00 +1200
                                  Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-15 23:08 -0500
                                    Re: C is fixed or not ? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-16 16:23 +1200
                                      Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-15 23:50 -0500
                                        Re: C is fixed or not ? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-16 17:13 +1200
                                          Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-16 00:26 -0500
                                        Re: C is fixed or not ? Dr Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2011-07-16 08:23 +0100
                                          Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-16 03:35 -0500
                                            Re: C is fixed or not ? Dr Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2011-07-16 10:17 +0100
                                              Re: C is fixed or not ? Dr Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2011-07-16 10:21 +0100
                                              Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-16 04:39 -0500
                                                Re: C is fixed or not ? Dr Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2011-07-16 12:22 +0100
                                                  Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-16 16:14 -0500
                                                  Re: C is fixed or not ? "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2011-07-17 08:01 +0200
                                Re: C is fixed or not ? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2011-07-16 13:48 +0100
                                  Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-16 23:56 -0500
                                    Re: C is fixed or not ? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2011-07-17 13:48 +0100
                                      Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-18 06:32 -0500
                                        Re: C is fixed or not ? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2011-07-19 01:14 +0100
                        Re: C is fixed or not ? Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-15 00:50 -0700
                          Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-15 22:44 -0500
                            Re: C is fixed or not ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-07-15 20:58 -0700
                              Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-15 23:09 -0500
                                Re: C is fixed or not ? Dr Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2011-07-16 08:24 +0100
                                  Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-16 03:38 -0500
                                    Re: C is fixed or not ? Dr Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2011-07-16 10:17 +0100
                              Re: C is fixed or not ? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2011-07-16 11:46 +0000
                            Re: C is fixed or not ? lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2011-07-16 14:53 -0400
                              Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-16 23:58 -0500
                                Re: C is fixed or not ? Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-18 02:47 -0700
                                  Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-18 06:41 -0500
                            Re: C is fixed or not ? Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-18 02:46 -0700
                              Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-18 06:46 -0500
                        Re: C is fixed or not ? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2011-07-15 01:24 -0700
                Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-07 21:49 -0500
                  Re: C is fixed or not ? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-07-08 12:47 +0100
                    Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-08 17:44 -0500
                      Re: C is fixed or not ? Oliver Jackson <chexmofo@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-09 00:46 -0700
              Re: C is fixed or not ? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-06 08:33 +0200
                Re: C is fixed or not ? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-06 20:10 +1200
                  Re: C is fixed or not ? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-06 14:35 +0200
                    Re: C is fixed or not ? lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2011-07-06 11:45 -0400
                      Re: C is fixed or not ? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-07-06 19:35 +0100
                        Re: C is fixed or not ? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-06 21:10 +0200
                        Re: C is fixed or not ? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-06 21:44 +0200
                    Re: C is fixed or not ? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-07 07:58 +1200
                  Re: C is fixed or not ? Chris H <chris@phaedsys.org> - 2011-07-06 15:59 +0100
                    Re: C is fixed or not ? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-06 17:39 +0200
                    Re: C is fixed or not ? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-07 08:03 +1200
                  Re: C is fixed or not ? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-06 17:16 +0200
              Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-07 21:39 -0500
                Re: C is fixed or not ? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-07-08 12:42 +0100
                  Re: C is fixed or not ? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-08 15:19 +0200
                  Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-08 17:46 -0500
          Re: C is fixed or not ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2011-07-04 17:35 -0700
            Re: C is fixed or not ? Chris H <chris@phaedsys.org> - 2011-07-06 08:26 +0100
              Re: C is fixed or not ? Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-07-07 19:52 +0300
          Re: C is fixed or not ? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2011-07-05 08:09 -0700
        Re: C is fixed or not ? Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2011-07-05 16:04 +0200
      Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-04 23:07 -0500
      Re: C is fixed or not ? "christian.bau" <christian.bau@cbau.wanadoo.co.uk> - 2011-07-06 17:11 -0700
        Re: C is fixed or not ? Chris H <chris@phaedsys.org> - 2011-07-07 16:29 +0100
          Re: C is fixed or not ? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-08 08:09 +1200
    Re: C is fixed or not ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-07-04 14:35 -0700
    Re: C is fixed or not ? "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> - 2011-07-04 23:01 -0500
    Re: C is fixed or not ? Chris H <chris@phaedsys.org> - 2011-07-06 16:07 +0100

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#7923

From"MikeP" <mp011011@some.org>
Date2011-07-07 22:00 -0500
Message-ID<iv5rsg$mci$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#7699
James Kuyper wrote:

>  I'm agnostic about whether adding threading to the C
> standard was a good idea, but I can certainly see why it might be
> desirable to have a threading API that can be used on both Windows
> and POSIX systems.
>

Let's see.. the POSIX/Unix crowd has their threading API already and the 
Windows crowd has theirs, and you are making the assumption that 
something that works on both platforms is going to be liked/used by 
either of those groups, even knowing that the approaches are different? 
What are the chances!

Should the C standard library recognize threads? Yes. Should it provide a 
whole API? Questionable. 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#7964

FromRui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com>
Date2011-07-08 13:20 +0100
Message-ID<4e16f784$0$22158$a729d347@news.telepac.pt>
In reply to#7923
MikeP wrote:

> Let's see.. the POSIX/Unix crowd has their threading API already and the
> Windows crowd has theirs

Not quite.  The only thing that stops a OS project from adding support for 
pthreads is their unwillingness to do so.  Regarding Microsoft, they already 
provide suppoprt for pthreads.  Therefore, this isn't a matter of 
"POSIX/Unix crowd" Vs "Windows crowd".  This is a matter of a widely 
established and adopted international standard Vs an API taken from some 
proprietary library.  And when defining an international standard, 
intentionally neglecting established international standards in favour of 
some proprietary code is not a good thing.


Rui Maciel

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#7975

FromJames Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net>
Date2011-07-08 10:47 -0400
Message-ID<iv75a7$laq$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#7964
On 07/08/2011 08:20 AM, Rui Maciel wrote:
...
> pthreads is their unwillingness to do so.  Regarding Microsoft, they already 
> provide suppoprt for pthreads.

According to Larry Jones, they don't provide such support for native
Windows programs, only for programs that run within the restrictions of
their "POSIX subsystem". Do you agree that he's right about that?
-- 
James Kuyper

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#7976

FromShao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com>
Date2011-07-08 11:07 -0400
Message-ID<iv76cd$sm2$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#7975
On 7/8/2011 10:47, James Kuyper wrote:
> On 07/08/2011 08:20 AM, Rui Maciel wrote:
> ...
>> pthreads is their unwillingness to do so.  Regarding Microsoft, they already
>> provide suppoprt for pthreads.
>
> According to Larry Jones, they don't provide such support for native
> Windows programs, only for programs that run within the restrictions of
> their "POSIX subsystem". Do you agree that he's right about that?

Even using the term "native" is confusing!  You have:

- Kernel-land APIs

- User-land APIs:

   - "Native" API (NTDLL.DLL)

   - "Windows" API (lots of .DLLs, the "basest" of which use the 
"native" API)

   - "POSIX" API (PSXDLL.DLL, which itself uses the "native" API)

"Notepad" is _not_ a native Windows program.  It is a program that 
natively works with Windows. :)  I do believe that Mr. L. Jones meant 
this kind of "native."  He'd _also_ be correct for the _other_ use of 
"native."

But of course your news-reader filtering choices won't allow you to read 
this message.  Good luck!

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#8000

From"MikeP" <mp011011@some.org>
Date2011-07-08 14:56 -0500
Message-ID<iv7nd8$fn5$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#7964
Rui Maciel wrote:
> MikeP wrote:
>
>> Let's see.. the POSIX/Unix crowd has their threading API already and
>> the Windows crowd has theirs
>
> Not quite.  The only thing that stops a OS project from adding
> support for pthreads is their unwillingness to do so.  Regarding
> Microsoft, they already provide suppoprt for pthreads.  Therefore,
> this isn't a matter of "POSIX/Unix crowd" Vs "Windows crowd".  This
> is a matter of a widely established and adopted international
> standard Vs an API taken from some proprietary library.  And when
> defining an international standard, intentionally neglecting
> established international standards in favour of some proprietary
> code is not a good thing.
>

That they didn't choose it does not mean that they didn't consider it. 
Why don't you ask them why they chose other than pthreads? I think some 
people have already given indications of why, not the least of which is 
that just because something has some kind of standardization, that does 
not necessarily make it good or appropriate. Your posts on this seem so 
whiney instead of factual. 

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#8235

FromNick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com>
Date2011-07-13 07:50 -0700
Message-ID<bf44cdaa-bea6-4f1c-8deb-f01b499b1884@y24g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>
In reply to#7923
On Jul 8, 4:00 am, "MikeP" <mp011...@some.org> wrote:
> James Kuyper wrote:


> >  I'm agnostic about whether adding threading to the C
> > standard was a good idea, but I can certainly see why it might be
> > desirable to have a threading API that can be used on both Windows
> > and POSIX systems.
>
> Let's see.. the POSIX/Unix crowd has their threading API already and the
> Windows crowd has theirs, and you are making the assumption that
> something that works on both platforms is going to be liked/used by
> either of those groups, even knowing that the approaches are different?
> What are the chances!

some people write portable code. i find it vaguely irritating that
unix and windows have gratuitious incompatibilities in, say, sockets.
If I could do the thready part of the program in some standard API and
have it Just Work then I'd feel a strong compulsion to use that API. I
could alos avoid learning two presumably subtly different thread
approaches. Seems a win win to me.

> Should the C standard library recognize threads? Yes. Should it provide a
> whole API? Questionable.

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#8289

From"MikeP" <mp011011@some.org>
Date2011-07-14 21:00 -0500
Message-ID<ivo70k$v8d$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#8235
Nick Keighley wrote:
> On Jul 8, 4:00 am, "MikeP" <mp011...@some.org> wrote:
>> James Kuyper wrote:
>
>
>>> I'm agnostic about whether adding threading to the C
>>> standard was a good idea, but I can certainly see why it might be
>>> desirable to have a threading API that can be used on both Windows
>>> and POSIX systems.
>>
>> Let's see.. the POSIX/Unix crowd has their threading API already and
>> the Windows crowd has theirs, and you are making the assumption that
>> something that works on both platforms is going to be liked/used by
>> either of those groups, even knowing that the approaches are
>> different? What are the chances!
>
> some people write portable code. i find it vaguely irritating that
> unix and windows have gratuitious incompatibilities in, say, sockets.
> If I could do the thready part of the program in some standard API and
> have it Just Work then I'd feel a strong compulsion to use that API. I
> could alos avoid learning two presumably subtly different thread
> approaches. Seems a win win to me.

Well that's the THEORY behind programming language standard libraries, 
anyway. All it really is though, is yet another wrench in the machine. 
Better to program to the specific platform than some concoction that is 
half-way here and half-way there, IMO. The "portable code" mantra is more 
trouble than it is worth (again, IMO. Been there, done that). I think 
languages should strive to enable library development, but I don't think 
they should specify any libraries at all, as that is for ancillaries 
(groups, companies) to do. Standard libraries hinder progress rather than 
advance the state of the art.

IMO. :)

(Aside: The C std library is, of course, the Unix API, so why someone 
would want to use it on Windows escapes me. One could further on that 
track by asking why anyone would want to use C (the Unix PL) on 
Windows!).

>
>> Should the C standard library recognize threads? Yes. Should it
>> provide a whole API? Questionable. 

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#8292

FromIan Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com>
Date2011-07-15 14:29 +1200
Message-ID<989n25Fv3rU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#8289
On 07/15/11 02:00 PM, MikeP wrote:
>
> (Aside: The C std library is, of course, the Unix API

No, it isn't.

-- 
Ian Collins

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#8294

From"MikeP" <mp011011@some.org>
Date2011-07-14 22:58 -0500
Message-ID<ivodsa$u3a$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#8292
Ian Collins wrote:
> On 07/15/11 02:00 PM, MikeP wrote:
>>
>> (Aside: The C std library is, of course, the Unix API
>
> No, it isn't.

Well it started out being that and still has that same flavor, that is 
the point: they belong together, a match made in... he

That it is now a subset of POSIX is really unimportant. 

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#8305

FromBen Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Date2011-07-15 11:31 +0100
Message-ID<0.23d406d54b21607cb911.20110715113102BST.87hb6nhm3d.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
In reply to#8294
"MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> writes:

> Ian Collins wrote:
>> On 07/15/11 02:00 PM, MikeP wrote:
>>>
>>> (Aside: The C std library is, of course, the Unix API
>>
>> No, it isn't.
>
> Well it started out being that

I don't think so.  Had you said "is influenced by" or "was developed to
work closely with" or some such phrase I doubt there would be much
objection, but "is" on its own suggests they are the same (or
substantially the same) and they're not.  The only part of the Unix API
(the system call interface) that I can spot that went into the C
standard library was signal(2).  That's a tiny part of the library.

Your argument is, presumably, that tighter system integration is more
important than portability.  There will be times when that's true and
times when it won't be.  As a general claim I think it's almost
impossible to judge, but it dose not fly as a criticism of the C library
because the presence of some standard functions does not force you to
use them when there are more appropriate system-specific ones.

<snip>
-- 
Ben.

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#8333

From"MikeP" <mp011011@some.org>
Date2011-07-15 21:49 -0500
Message-ID<ivqu71$d69$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#8305
Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> writes:
>
>> Ian Collins wrote:
>>> On 07/15/11 02:00 PM, MikeP wrote:
>>>>
>>>> (Aside: The C std library is, of course, the Unix API
>>>
>>> No, it isn't.
>>
>> Well it started out being that
>
> I don't think so.  Had you said "is influenced by" or "was developed
> to work closely with" or some such phrase I doubt there would be much
> objection, but "is" on its own suggests they are the same (or
> substantially the same) and they're not.  The only part of the Unix
> API (the system call interface) that I can spot that went into the C
> standard library was signal(2).  That's a tiny part of the library.

E.g. (what I was getting at): Unix has 'fopen', Windows has 'CreateFile'.

>
> Your argument is, presumably, that tighter system integration is more
> important than portability.

Not really (not that I don't or do agree with that). Standard libraries 
of programming languages notoriously suck. One is faced with that "holy 
portability" (and "performance trumps elegance") thing even when one need 
not be. That's fine if you need it, but if you don't, you don't. Not that 
platform-provided libraries are a panacea, but that I'd rather build 
something on top of that than on top of language-provided libraries 
because I feel that language-provided libraries are not adequate as the 
top-level of abstraction and if I have to build something on top of 
something anyway, I prefer to build on top of the platform API. YMMV: I'm 
not trying to persuade anyone to use my methods.

> There will be times when that's true and
> times when it won't be.  As a general claim I think it's almost
> impossible to judge, but it dose not fly as a criticism of the C
> library because the presence of some standard functions does not
> force you to use them when there are more appropriate system-specific
> ones.

I think the library committee and the language proper committee should 
not be one in the same (even if they have largely the same membership). 

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#8334

FromIan Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com>
Date2011-07-16 15:00 +1200
Message-ID<98cd7nFv3qU8@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#8333
On 07/16/11 02:49 PM, MikeP wrote:
> Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> "MikeP"<mp011011@some.org>  writes:
>>
>>> Ian Collins wrote:
>>>> On 07/15/11 02:00 PM, MikeP wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> (Aside: The C std library is, of course, the Unix API
>>>>
>>>> No, it isn't.
>>>
>>> Well it started out being that
>>
>> I don't think so.  Had you said "is influenced by" or "was developed
>> to work closely with" or some such phrase I doubt there would be much
>> objection, but "is" on its own suggests they are the same (or
>> substantially the same) and they're not.  The only part of the Unix
>> API (the system call interface) that I can spot that went into the C
>> standard library was signal(2).  That's a tiny part of the library.
>
> E.g. (what I was getting at): Unix has 'fopen', Windows has 'CreateFile'.

Really? The Unix native functions are open() and creat().

>> Your argument is, presumably, that tighter system integration is more
>> important than portability.
>
> Not really (not that I don't or do agree with that). Standard libraries
> of programming languages notoriously suck.

Have you ever tried to use say PHP, Python or Java without using their 
standard libraries?  have you never used printf?

> One is faced with that "holy
> portability" (and "performance trumps elegance") thing even when one need
> not be. That's fine if you need it, but if you don't, you don't. Not that
> platform-provided libraries are a panacea, but that I'd rather build
> something on top of that than on top of language-provided libraries
> because I feel that language-provided libraries are not adequate as the
> top-level of abstraction and if I have to build something on top of
> something anyway, I prefer to build on top of the platform API. YMMV: I'm
> not trying to persuade anyone to use my methods.

Have you ever used platform-provided libraries in PHP, Python or Java?

>> There will be times when that's true and
>> times when it won't be.  As a general claim I think it's almost
>> impossible to judge, but it dose not fly as a criticism of the C
>> library because the presence of some standard functions does not
>> force you to use them when there are more appropriate system-specific
>> ones.
>
> I think the library committee and the language proper committee should
> not be one in the same (even if they have largely the same membership).

The language committees have separate working groups for the core 
language and the libraries (at least that's the case with C++).  The two 
can not work in isolation, some library components require language 
enhancements.

-- 
Ian Collins

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#8337

From"MikeP" <mp011011@some.org>
Date2011-07-15 23:08 -0500
Message-ID<ivr2s4$297$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#8334
Ian Collins wrote:
> On 07/16/11 02:49 PM, MikeP wrote:
>> Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> "MikeP"<mp011011@some.org>  writes:
>>>
>>>> Ian Collins wrote:
>>>>> On 07/15/11 02:00 PM, MikeP wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Aside: The C std library is, of course, the Unix API
>>>>>
>>>>> No, it isn't.
>>>>
>>>> Well it started out being that
>>>
>>> I don't think so.  Had you said "is influenced by" or "was developed
>>> to work closely with" or some such phrase I doubt there would be
>>> much objection, but "is" on its own suggests they are the same (or
>>> substantially the same) and they're not.  The only part of the Unix
>>> API (the system call interface) that I can spot that went into the C
>>> standard library was signal(2).  That's a tiny part of the library.
>>
>> E.g. (what I was getting at): Unix has 'fopen', Windows has
>> 'CreateFile'.
>
> Really? The Unix native functions are open() and creat().
>

And the C std library is probably adequate for abstracting them, for 
those who like that Unixy taste. We can go round and round for years but 
won't get anywhere because you think the std library is the best thing 
since apple pie and I think it sucks. If I was programming for Unix, I 
would surely build something on top of open and create just as I have 
built on top of CreateFile and friends.

>>> Your argument is, presumably, that tighter system integration is
>>> more important than portability.
>>
>> Not really (not that I don't or do agree with that). Standard
>> libraries of programming languages notoriously suck.
>
> Have you ever tried to use say PHP, Python or Java without using their
> standard libraries?

No.

> have you never used printf?

Yes.

>
>> One is faced with that "holy
>> portability" (and "performance trumps elegance") thing even when one
>> need not be. That's fine if you need it, but if you don't, you
>> don't. Not that platform-provided libraries are a panacea, but that
>> I'd rather build something on top of that than on top of
>> language-provided libraries because I feel that language-provided
>> libraries are not adequate as the top-level of abstraction and if I
>> have to build something on top of something anyway, I prefer to
>> build on top of the platform API. YMMV: I'm not trying to persuade
>> anyone to use my methods.
>
> Have you ever used platform-provided libraries in PHP, Python or Java?

I don't use those.

>
>>> There will be times when that's true and
>>> times when it won't be.  As a general claim I think it's almost
>>> impossible to judge, but it dose not fly as a criticism of the C
>>> library because the presence of some standard functions does not
>>> force you to use them when there are more appropriate
>>> system-specific ones.
>>
>> I think the library committee and the language proper committee
>> should not be one in the same (even if they have largely the same
>> membership).
>
> The language committees have separate working groups for the core
> language and the libraries (at least that's the case with C++).

Well that is good news. Completely separate would be (would have been?) 
better, but maybe not for the boys club that those languages are. I'm not 
knocking it.

> The
> two can not work in isolation, some library components require
> language enhancements.

Well see. Why have only one group influencing the direction of the 
language proper? (rhetorical, as it is too late for C and it's processes 
to change). 

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#8339

FromIan Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com>
Date2011-07-16 16:23 +1200
Message-ID<98ci4tFv3qU9@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#8337
On 07/16/11 04:08 PM, MikeP wrote:
> Ian Collins wrote:
>> On 07/16/11 02:49 PM, MikeP wrote:

>>> E.g. (what I was getting at): Unix has 'fopen', Windows has
>>> 'CreateFile'.
>>
>> Really? The Unix native functions are open() and creat().
>>
>
> And the C std library is probably adequate for abstracting them, for
> those who like that Unixy taste. We can go round and round for years but
> won't get anywhere because you think the std library is the best thing
> since apple pie and I think it sucks. If I was programming for Unix, I
> would surely build something on top of open and create just as I have
> built on top of CreateFile and friends.

I hold no such opinion.  The C standard library simply is.

>>>> Your argument is, presumably, that tighter system integration is
>>>> more important than portability.
>>>
>>> Not really (not that I don't or do agree with that). Standard
>>> libraries of programming languages notoriously suck.
>>
>> Have you ever tried to use say PHP, Python or Java without using their
>> standard libraries?
>
> No.

Well you wouldn't get very far if you did.  Part of the attraction of 
scripting languages and that abomination called Java is their 
continuously evolving, often huge, cross-platform libraries.

>> have you never used printf?
>
> Yes.

Ah, so you don't always roll your own?

>> Have you ever used platform-provided libraries in PHP, Python or Java?
>
> I don't use those.

Hint: you probably won't find one.

-- 
Ian Collins

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#8340

From"MikeP" <mp011011@some.org>
Date2011-07-15 23:50 -0500
Message-ID<ivr5a0$c22$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#8339
Ian Collins wrote:
> On 07/16/11 04:08 PM, MikeP wrote:
>> Ian Collins wrote:
>>> On 07/16/11 02:49 PM, MikeP wrote:
>
>>>> E.g. (what I was getting at): Unix has 'fopen', Windows has
>>>> 'CreateFile'.
>>>
>>> Really? The Unix native functions are open() and creat().
>>>
>>
>> And the C std library is probably adequate for abstracting them, for
>> those who like that Unixy taste. We can go round and round for years
>> but won't get anywhere because you think the std library is the best
>> thing since apple pie and I think it sucks. If I was programming for
>> Unix, I would surely build something on top of open and create just
>> as I have built on top of CreateFile and friends.
>
> I hold no such opinion.  The C standard library simply is.

... is not a good top-level abstraction. :)

>
>>>>> Your argument is, presumably, that tighter system integration is
>>>>> more important than portability.
>>>>
>>>> Not really (not that I don't or do agree with that). Standard
>>>> libraries of programming languages notoriously suck.
>>>
>>> Have you ever tried to use say PHP, Python or Java without using
>>> their standard libraries?
>>
>> No.
>
> Well you wouldn't get very far if you did.  Part of the attraction of
> scripting languages and that abomination called Java is their
> continuously evolving, often huge, cross-platform libraries.
>
>>> have you never used printf?
>>
>> Yes.
>
> Ah, so you don't always roll your own?

It's a work in progress. "Any day now" I'll be able to jettison that one 
again, but for now I am using it (again).
I used to have my own text windows to output to but then I decided to 
rework everything yet again so printf is again something I am using until 
all the code is brought back in, but for development only, not in 
prodution code.

>
>>> Have you ever used platform-provided libraries in PHP, Python or
>>> Java?
>>
>> I don't use those.
>
> Hint: you probably won't find one.

Java is a platform. Could say that about PHP too. I don't know about 
Python, as that sounds like it has more GP language goals (?). 

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#8341

FromIan Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com>
Date2011-07-16 17:13 +1200
Message-ID<98cl24Fv3qU10@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#8340
On 07/16/11 04:50 PM, MikeP wrote:
> Ian Collins wrote:
>> On 07/16/11 04:08 PM, MikeP wrote:
>>> Ian Collins wrote:
>>
>>>> have you never used printf?
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>
>> Ah, so you don't always roll your own?
>
> It's a work in progress. "Any day now" I'll be able to jettison that one
> again, but for now I am using it (again).
> I used to have my own text windows to output to but then I decided to
> rework everything yet again so printf is again something I am using until
> all the code is brought back in, but for development only, not in
> prodution code.

Lucky you, I wish I had the time to reinvent wheels.

-- 
Ian Collins

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#8342

From"MikeP" <mp011011@some.org>
Date2011-07-16 00:26 -0500
Message-ID<ivr7eg$kaq$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#8341
Ian Collins wrote:
> On 07/16/11 04:50 PM, MikeP wrote:
>> Ian Collins wrote:
>>> On 07/16/11 04:08 PM, MikeP wrote:
>>>> Ian Collins wrote:
>>>
>>>>> have you never used printf?
>>>>
>>>> Yes.
>>>
>>> Ah, so you don't always roll your own?
>>
>> It's a work in progress. "Any day now" I'll be able to jettison that
>> one again, but for now I am using it (again).
>> I used to have my own text windows to output to but then I decided to
>> rework everything yet again so printf is again something I am using
>> until all the code is brought back in, but for development only, not
>> in prodution code.
>
> Lucky you, I wish I had the time to reinvent wheels.

For me it's a necessity, for where I'm traveling-to and what I'm 
traveling-in requires round, not square, wheels. It will not require jet 
engines though, that's a relief, because planes are scary. :) 

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#8343

FromDr Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk>
Date2011-07-16 08:23 +0100
Message-ID<87hb6msn7v.fsf@temporary-address.org.uk>
In reply to#8340
"MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> writes:

> Ian Collins wrote:
>> On 07/16/11 04:08 PM, MikeP wrote:
>>> Ian Collins wrote:
>>>> On 07/16/11 02:49 PM, MikeP wrote:
>>
>>>>> E.g. (what I was getting at): Unix has 'fopen', Windows has
>>>>> 'CreateFile'.
>>>>
>>>> Really? The Unix native functions are open() and creat().
>>>>
>>>
>>> And the C std library is probably adequate for abstracting them, for
>>> those who like that Unixy taste. We can go round and round for years
>>> but won't get anywhere because you think the std library is the best
>>> thing since apple pie and I think it sucks. If I was programming for
>>> Unix, I would surely build something on top of open and create just
>>> as I have built on top of CreateFile and friends.
>>
>> I hold no such opinion.  The C standard library simply is.
>
> ... is not a good top-level abstraction. :)

It's not bad.  I've managed to use it to write perfectly functional C on
(at least - I'm almost certainly forgetting some): CP/CMS, MVS, VMS,
QDOS, SMS/2, Linux and a custom OS.

That's the whole idea of an abstraction.  I would not like to have had
to learn the underlying OS calls for each of these, cope with the
complexities of the file systems, and then written my own code.
Particularly when I then had to move programs from one to the other of
these.
-- 
Online waterways route planner            | http://canalplan.eu
Plan trips, see photos, check facilities  | http://canalplan.org.uk

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#8346

From"MikeP" <mp011011@some.org>
Date2011-07-16 03:35 -0500
Message-ID<ivrig3$4s9$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#8343
Dr Nick wrote:
> "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> writes:
>
>> Ian Collins wrote:
>>> On 07/16/11 04:08 PM, MikeP wrote:
>>>> Ian Collins wrote:
>>>>> On 07/16/11 02:49 PM, MikeP wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> E.g. (what I was getting at): Unix has 'fopen', Windows has
>>>>>> 'CreateFile'.
>>>>>
>>>>> Really? The Unix native functions are open() and creat().
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And the C std library is probably adequate for abstracting them,
>>>> for those who like that Unixy taste. We can go round and round for
>>>> years but won't get anywhere because you think the std library is
>>>> the best thing since apple pie and I think it sucks. If I was
>>>> programming for Unix, I would surely build something on top of
>>>> open and create just as I have built on top of CreateFile and
>>>> friends.
>>>
>>> I hold no such opinion.  The C standard library simply is.
>>
>> ... is not a good top-level abstraction. :)
>
> It's not bad.  I've managed to use it to write perfectly functional C
> on (at least - I'm almost certainly forgetting some): CP/CMS, MVS,
> VMS, QDOS, SMS/2, Linux and a custom OS.
>
> That's the whole idea of an abstraction.  I would not like to have had
> to learn the underlying OS calls for each of these, cope with the
> complexities of the file systems, and then written my own code.
> Particularly when I then had to move programs from one to the other of
> these.

Yeah, if you like the C API, that works. You could have been using 
something nicer (assuming you are a good library designer) and evolving 
though if you would have considered C just another platform. But then 
again, if you only have C to work with, "nice" doesn't belong in the same 
dialog. Move up a notch to C++ though, and you can create almost anything 
and with some elegance too. (Preaching to the choir, surely). 

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#8348

FromDr Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk>
Date2011-07-16 10:17 +0100
Message-ID<87tyamr3e6.fsf@temporary-address.org.uk>
In reply to#8346
"MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> writes:

> Dr Nick wrote:
>> "MikeP" <mp011011@some.org> writes:
>>
>>> ... is not a good top-level abstraction. :)
>>
>> It's not bad.  I've managed to use it to write perfectly functional C
>> on (at least - I'm almost certainly forgetting some): CP/CMS, MVS,
>> VMS, QDOS, SMS/2, Linux and a custom OS.
>>
>> That's the whole idea of an abstraction.  I would not like to have had
>> to learn the underlying OS calls for each of these, cope with the
>> complexities of the file systems, and then written my own code.
>> Particularly when I then had to move programs from one to the other of
>> these.
>
> Yeah, if you like the C API, that works. 

It's nothing to do with "liking" it, and it's not "that works".  It's
"that's all there is to it".

> You could have been using something nicer (assuming you are a good
> library designer) and evolving though if you would have considered C
> just another platform. But then again, if you only have C to work
> with, "nice" doesn't belong in the same dialog. 

No, I couldn't have "been using something nicer" (whatever that looks
like - any suggestions for a library that is "nicer" and works on all
the above OSs".  I'd never have managed to write the code in the time
available (and this is nothing to do with bad planning - sometimes there
are external factors that mean that there was no need for some software
yesterday and there is /now/) if I'd had to start on the raw application
layer and build my own "nicer" library.  I'm not even sure I had
documentation or appropriate header files for the native interface.

Some of that, as implied, was for myself.  Some was for employers, so
migrating the library backwards and forwards would have been
problematical to say the least.

> Move up a notch to C++
> though, and you can create almost anything and with some elegance
> too. (Preaching to the choir, surely).

So in one breath you are suggesting I cut out a huge chunk of the power
of C, and in the other you're suggesting I move to something much more
powerful.  Most odd if you don't mind me saying so.
-- 
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