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Re: Jared Kushner would be proud...

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From Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Jared Kushner would be proud...
Date Sun, 05 Apr 2020 02:33:46 -0700
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Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> writes:
> On Saturday, 4 April 2020 23:46:55 UTC+1, Richard Damon  wrote:
>> On 4/4/20 4:52 PM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>> > On Saturday, 4 April 2020 21:27:54 UTC+1, Keith Thompson  wrote:
>> >> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> writes:
>> >> [...]
>> >>> It also implies discussion about fine, almost meaningless points.
>> >>> For instance, since the standard uses the term "array of character type" 
>> >>> (and defines "character type", which I wasn't aware of) what is the
>> >>> status of this program?
>> >>>
>> >>> #include <stdio.h>
>> >>>
>> >>> int main(void)
>> >>> {
>> >>>   printf("***%.*s***\n", 0, (void *) 0);
>> >>>
>> >>>   return 0;
>> >>> }
>> >>>
>> >>> But is there actually an answer in the standard, as opposed to a
>> >>> knowledge of how C implementations work?
>> >>
>> >> I don't know why you think this is a good example of whatever
>> >> point you're trying to make.  Yes, there is actually an answer in
>> >> the standard.  The description of the "s" conversion specifier says:
>> >>
>> >>     If no l length modifier is present, the argument shall be a
>> >>     pointer to the initial element of an array of character type.
>> >>
>> >> (void*)0, even if interpreted as a value of type char*, clearly is
>> >> not a pointer to the initial element of an array.  The violation
>> >> of a "shall" outside a constraint means the program has undefined
>> >> behavior.
>> >>
>> >> It's likely that an actual implementation would not dereference
>> >> the pointer and the program's output would be "******" followed
>> >> by a newline.  That is, as you know, entirely consistent with
>> >> undefined behavior.
>> >>
>> >> This is why you shouldn't pass a null pointer corresponding to a
>> >> "%...s" directive (where "..." is any, possibly empty, sequence of
>> >> characters that are valid in that context).
>> >>
>> >> The standard *could* have said that it's permissible to pass a null
>> >> pointer if none of the characters are used, but that would have
>> >> made the standard more complicated with no real benefit.  As it is,
>> >> an implementation that calls abort() if it's passed a null pointer
>> >> in that context could be conforming.
>> >>
>> >> What was your point again?
>> > 
>> > Are you sure the implementation is allowed to call abort() if the char * 
>> > argument is null and the character count is zero? Or did you just take 
>> > that decision on your own authority?
>> > 
>> > I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm saying it's a marginal case that isn't
>> > covered, as far as I can tell. 
>> 
>> Since the Standard (explicitly) says that it is undefined behavior if
>> the argument is not a pointer to the initial element of an array (as the
>> NULL pointer doesn't point to any object), then yes, the Standard is
>> clear on this. And I could actually see a library written defensively
>> (trying to catch as many undefined behaviors and turning them into some
>> explicit error condition rather than doing some critical undefined
>> behavior), catching this, as at the begining of the %s processing, it
>> might have an assert that the pointer is not null, before checking if
>> the max width was set to 0.
>>
> It's worse than that, and Keith's inerpretation is right.

Thank you, but I don't see what's "worse" about it.

> The relevant section is actually buried away soemwhere in the preamble
> to "functions" where it says that a pinter shall be "valid", and null
> is not "valid". Even in N is 0.

The relevant section is the one I cited, the one that says "the argument
shall be a pointer to the initial element of an array of character
type".

I think you're referring to 7.1.4 (Use of library functions) which says
that if an argument to a function (here it's referring to library
functions, not to user-defined functions) has an invalid value the
behavior is undefined.  But there's no need to resort to that, since the
undefinedness of passing a null pointer to printf is specified in the
description of printf itself.  (Actually fprintf; printf is defined in
terms of fprintf.  And actually just in this particular context;
printf("%p", (void*)0) is perfectly valid).

> So this is a disaster. memcpy() does not handle the null case properly.

How is that a disaster?  Just don't call memcpy with a null pointer.

In fact it's not possible in general for memcpy to determine whether
a pointer passed to it is valid.  It might be uninitialized, or
it might point to memory that's been deallocated, or it might just
point to the wrong object.  The standard *could* have required some
kind of checking for null pointers (which would do what if the check
fails?), but since invalid pointers in general are not detectable,
there wouldn't have been much point.

> Consider. It is very likely that in real code, N can be zero, but such
> cases are exceptional and very rare.
> It is also likely that the buffers are allocated by a call to malloc().
> It is also quite likely that malloc(0) returns non-null.
>
> It is also quite likely that on the platform the code is tested on,
> memcpy() does handle memcpy(0, 0, 0) as a no-op.
>
> So this is asking for bugs to slip through and only be detected at
> a late stage.

The fact that malloc(0) might return either a null pointer or a valid
pointer that can't be safely dereferenced is, I'll agree, a bit of a
problem.  I think it's defined that way because existing pre-standard
implementations behaved both ways.
https://www.lysator.liu.se/c/rat/d10.html#4-10-3

But really, it's not that big a deal.  Don't assume that malloc(0) will
return a non-null pointer, don't assume malloc() always succeeds, and
don't pass null pointers to functions that aren't prepared for them.
You can certainly shoot yourself in the foot with C.  You seem to be
complaining that it doesn't provide Kevlar over your left big toenail.
The trick is to avoid shooting yourself in the foot in the first place,
by understanding the rules of the gun and being careful.  (And yes, it
is tricky.)

Have you run into the problems you're worried about in real code?
Have you actually written something similar to 
    printf("***%.*s***\n", 0, (void *) 0);
It looks to me like a contrived example, one that you presented as a
"meaningless point".

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
Working, but not speaking, for Philips Healthcare
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

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Re: C String terminator Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-16 02:25 -0800
  Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-02-16 14:24 -0800
    Re: C String terminator Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-22 08:13 -0800
      Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-02-22 09:05 -0800
        Re: C String terminator Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-03-27 19:58 -0700
          Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-03-27 23:26 -0700
            Re: C String terminator Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-04-02 09:21 -0700
              Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-02 09:54 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-02 11:17 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-02 13:12 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-02 13:28 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-04-02 19:17 -0700
                Re: C String terminator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-03 09:47 +0200
                Re: C String terminator already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2020-04-03 08:03 -0700
                Re: C String terminator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-03 17:34 +0200
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-03 12:39 -0400
                Re: C String terminator Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-04-03 18:05 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-03 10:18 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-03 22:13 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-03 14:36 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-03 16:18 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 01:43 -0700
                Re: C String terminator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-04 18:23 +0200
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 11:18 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 13:02 -0700
                Re: C String terminator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-05 21:54 +0200
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-05 13:59 -0700
                Re: C String terminator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-06 09:07 +0200
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-06 02:25 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-06 11:43 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-06 03:56 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-06 16:34 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-06 10:30 -0700
                Re: C String terminator richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2020-04-06 17:50 +0000
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-06 11:31 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-06 12:04 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-06 21:51 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-06 14:34 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-06 14:39 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-06 14:52 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-06 15:31 -0700
                Re: C String terminator jameskuyper@stellarscience.com - 2020-04-06 16:05 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-07 03:08 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2020-04-06 21:12 -0600
                Re: C String terminator scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-04-07 16:55 +0000
                Re: C String terminator Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2020-04-07 11:05 -0600
                Re: C String terminator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-07 20:39 +0200
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-07 11:48 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2020-04-07 21:21 -0600
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-07 20:40 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-08 01:41 -0700
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-08 07:40 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-08 08:16 -0700
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-08 09:17 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-08 09:46 -0700
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-08 10:37 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-08 10:48 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-04-08 14:07 -0400
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-08 11:29 -0700
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-08 16:46 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-09 01:57 -0700
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-09 08:42 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-09 08:56 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-04-09 12:42 -0400
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-09 10:12 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-04-09 15:51 -0400
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-09 13:02 -0700
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-09 13:06 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-09 14:49 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-04-09 19:05 -0400
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-10 02:25 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-04-10 04:38 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-10 05:21 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-04-10 07:13 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-10 11:38 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Ike Naar <ike@sdf.lonestar.org> - 2020-04-11 17:38 +0000
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-11 15:04 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-04-11 15:16 -0400
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-11 21:45 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-12 04:39 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-12 21:34 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-12 14:38 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-04-13 11:13 -0400
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-13 08:24 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-11 15:08 -0700
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-09 09:53 -0700
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-07 14:35 -0400
                Re: C String terminator Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-04-06 21:04 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-07 01:16 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-07 02:08 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-07 02:19 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-07 08:42 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-07 10:39 -0700
                Re: C String terminator scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-04-07 17:45 +0000
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-07 14:40 -0400
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-07 11:03 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-07 11:14 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-07 12:19 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-07 12:02 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-04-07 06:27 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-07 07:44 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-04-07 08:30 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-07 00:27 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-07 12:50 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-07 05:25 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-07 23:52 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-08 03:15 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-08 21:28 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-08 15:40 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-09 00:31 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Ike Naar <ike@sdf.lonestar.org> - 2020-04-07 21:40 +0000
                Re: C String terminator luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2020-04-06 09:41 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-06 12:46 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2020-04-07 17:17 +0200
                Re: C String terminator Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-04-09 07:23 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-04 22:32 +0100
                Re: C String terminator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-03 21:59 +0200
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-03 23:48 -0400
                Jared Kushner would be proud... (Was: C String terminator) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2020-04-04 09:00 +0000
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... (Was: C String terminator) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 02:45 -0700
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... (Was: C String terminator) Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-04-04 10:24 +0000
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... (Was: C String terminator) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 03:55 -0700
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 13:27 -0700
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 13:52 -0700
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 14:12 -0700
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 15:12 -0700
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 15:03 -0700
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-04-04 18:46 -0400
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-05 01:53 -0700
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-05 02:33 -0700
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-05 06:43 -0700
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... (Was: C String terminator) Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-04-04 19:48 -0700
                Re: Jared Kushner would be proud... (Was: C String terminator) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-04 06:37 -0700
                Re: C String terminator David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-04 18:36 +0200
                Re: C String terminator dave_thompson_2@comcast.net - 2020-05-02 15:13 -0400
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-03 09:41 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-03 10:33 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-03 11:14 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-03 11:34 -0700
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-03 14:48 -0400
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-03 12:10 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-03 13:24 -0700
                Re: C String terminator James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-03 23:59 -0400
                Re: C String terminator Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-03 22:05 +0100
                Re: C String terminator Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-04-04 20:34 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-05 02:05 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-04-09 07:35 -0700
                Re: C String terminator Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-04-09 07:38 -0700

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