Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.arch.embedded > #26529

Re: QF72 story - wow

Show all headers | View raw

On 5/15/2017 10:48 AM, David Brown wrote:
> On 15/05/17 15:58, Reinhardt Behm wrote:
>> AT Monday 15 May 2017 21:05, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
>>
>>> On 14.5.2017 г. 15:03, Clifford Heath wrote:
>>>> This story is a doozy.
>>>> <http://www.smh.com.au/good-weekend/the-untold-story-of-qf72-what-
>> happens-when-psycho-automation-leaves-pilots-powerless-20170510-gw26ae.html>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting reading, I read almost the whole article. If I start
>>> commenting on the quality of the software they mut have on these planes
>>> I'll go into a rant predictable to all seasoned group members so
>>> I won't.
>>>
>>> But I am amazed that - as the article states - the board computer
>>> on these planes has priority over the pilots. This is not a bug, it
>>> is an error at the product concept level... If it is true of course,
>>> I still have difficulties believing that. The fact they did manage
>>> to gain some manual control hints towards "not quite true".
>>
>> I am doing airborne software myself.
>> You are correct. It is not a bug, it is a serious error of the requirements.
>> Software has to be written according to requirements and this is verified
>> (DO-178). If the sys-reqs are erroneous the software is also incorrect.
>>
>
> What about that case of a plane crash because the pilot intentionally
> crashed it (as far as they could figure out afterwards, anyway)?  He was
> mentally unstable and drove the plane into a mountain.  If the onboard
> computers had had priority over the pilot in that case, there would have
> been no crash.
>
> It is far from easy to say who or what is most reliable in cases like
> this, and who or what should have priority.  Automated systems can (if
> designed properly) be safer and more stable than humans - but on the
> other hand, humans are better at handling unexpected situations.
>
> However, I thought that critical flight systems were made in triplicate,
> and if one goes bananas it gets outvoted, and the other two run the
> plane?  Did that not happen here?

Didn't anyone pay attention?  There were a total of 10 errors that 
happened to cause the misreporting of the angle of the airplane.  These 
errors were not reported to the pilots.  This was the failure of the 
system, not the fact that the plane overrode the pilot's commands.

The statistics don't lie.  Most accidents are caused by pilot errors, 
not plane malfunctions.  That is why the plane can override the pilot. 
Humans are almost always the weak link in the system.

In this case the errors should have been reported to the pilots so they 
could take action to prevent the misreporting of critical flight 
information.  The malfunctioning systems could have been shut down, not 
unlike HAL in 2001, but without the drama.

-- 

Rick C

Back to comp.arch.embedded | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

QF72 story - wow Clifford Heath <clifford.heath@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 22:03 +1000
  Re: QF72 story - wow BM2335 <BM265@DMM.com.au> - 2017-05-15 12:25 +0800
  Re: QF72 story - wow Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-05-15 16:05 +0300
    Re: QF72 story - wow Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-05-15 21:58 +0800
      Re: QF72 story - wow David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-15 16:48 +0200
        Re: QF72 story - wow Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-05-15 23:34 +0800
          Re: QF72 story - wow Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-15 18:00 +0100
          Re: QF72 story - wow Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-15 17:49 -0500
          Re: QF72 story - wow David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-16 09:06 +0200
            Re: QF72 story - wow upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-05-16 19:46 +0300
          Re: QF72 story - wow rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-16 10:41 -0400
            Re: QF72 story - wow Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-05-17 23:13 +0800
              Re: QF72 story - wow rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 11:54 -0400
                Re: QF72 story - wow Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-05-17 21:43 +0300
                Re: QF72 story - wow rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 16:03 -0400
                Re: QF72 story - wow Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-05-18 00:27 +0300
                Re: QF72 story - wow rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 19:56 -0400
          Re: QF72 story - wow upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-05-16 19:30 +0300
            Re: QF72 story - wow Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-16 23:05 -0500
            Re: QF72 story - wow Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-05-17 23:05 +0800
        Re: QF72 story - wow rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-16 10:25 -0400
      Re: QF72 story - wow Przemek Klosowski <przemek@tux.dot.org> - 2017-05-18 12:45 +0000
    Re: QF72 story - wow upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-05-16 19:10 +0300
      Re: QF72 story - wow Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-05-16 19:48 +0300
      Re: QF72 story - wow lasselangwadtchristensen@gmail.com - 2017-05-19 17:40 -0700
  Re: QF72 story - wow Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-05-15 12:34 -0500
    Re: QF72 story - wow Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-15 17:21 -0500
    Re: QF72 story - wow rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-16 10:47 -0400
      Re: QF72 story - wow Jan Coombs <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com> - 2017-05-17 10:31 +0100
        Re: QF72 story - wow Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-05-17 22:20 +0800
          Re: QF72 story - wow rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 10:36 -0400
  Re: QF72 story - wow George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-05-15 17:28 -0400
    Re: QF72 story - wow Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-15 17:22 -0500
    Re: QF72 story - wow Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-05-16 10:51 +0300
      Re: QF72 story - wow Clifford Heath <clifford.heath@gmail.com> - 2017-05-16 18:01 +1000
  Re: QF72 story - wow upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-05-16 18:54 +0300
    Re: QF72 story - wow Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-16 23:23 -0500

csiph-web