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Re: Self-hosting and the 6502

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  Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lev <thresh3@fastmail.com> - 2026-03-30 19:12 +0000
    Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2026-03-30 21:01 +0100
      Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-30 21:02 +0000
      Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-31 00:44 +0000
        Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-03-31 19:46 +0000
          Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-31 20:48 +0000
            Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-04-01 23:23 +0000
              Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-04-02 10:53 +0000
                Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-02 07:29 -0700
                  Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-04-02 16:58 +0000
                    Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-02 20:34 +0000
                      Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-04-02 20:53 +0000
          Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-31 21:01 +0000
          Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-03 16:53 -1000
            Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-04 03:57 +0000
              Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-04 07:37 -0700
                Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-04-04 21:55 +0000
                  Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-04 15:48 -0700
                    Re: ancient time sharingSelf-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-04-05 02:27 +0000
                Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-04 22:03 +0000
                  Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-04 12:31 -1000
              Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-04 07:40 -1000
              Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-04-04 13:44 -0700
                Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 (VSCP) ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2026-04-05 20:23 +0000
          Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-04 12:53 -1000
            Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-04 23:44 +0000
              Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2026-04-05 09:29 +0100
                Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-04-05 19:22 +0000
                  Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-05 14:30 -1000
                    Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-05 20:02 -0700
                    history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> - 2026-09-11 09:05 -0300
                      Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-09-11 16:49 +0200
                        Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-09-11 15:58 +0100
                        Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> - 2026-09-11 13:38 -0300
                          Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-09-11 19:41 +0200
                            Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-09-11 19:18 +0100
                              Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-09-11 21:27 +0200
                                Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-11 21:13 +0000
                                Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-12 14:47 -1000
                                  Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-09-13 15:02 -0700
                                    Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-13 16:27 -0700
                                    Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-14 15:11 -1000
                                      Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-15 04:19 +0000
                                Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-09-13 14:56 -0700
                                  Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-15 04:10 +0000
                                    Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-09-15 05:46 -0700
                                      Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-15 07:51 -0700
                                        Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-15 23:22 +0000
                                      Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-15 23:13 +0000
                                    Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-09-15 16:48 +0200
                                    Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-09-15 08:19 -0700
                        Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-12 14:13 -1000
                      Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-12 14:12 -1000
                        Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> - 2026-09-13 14:02 -0300
                          Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-09-13 18:55 +0100
                            Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-09-13 19:03 +0100
                              Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-09-13 19:07 +0100
                          Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-13 16:21 -0700
                            Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-14 00:37 +0100
                              Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-13 20:56 -0700
                            Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-09-14 04:12 +0000
                          Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-14 15:06 -1000
                  Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-04-06 01:42 +0000
                    Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-05 20:05 -0700
                      Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-06 07:03 +0000
                        Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-05 22:19 -1000
                          Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-06 08:20 +0000
                          Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-04-06 12:03 +0000
                        Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-06 07:30 -0700
                          Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-06 07:39 -1000
                            Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-06 12:05 -0700
                              Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-06 17:41 -1000
                            position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> - 2026-09-11 09:42 -0300
                              Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-12 15:12 -1000
                                Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-09-13 01:57 +0000
                                  Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-12 21:14 -0700
                                  Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2026-09-17 17:06 +0000
                                    Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-17 17:56 +0000
                                      Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2026-09-18 14:08 +0000
                                        Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-18 19:29 +0100
                                          Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-09-18 12:00 -0700
                                            Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-09-18 20:35 +0000
                                    Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Andy Valencia <vandys@vsta.org> - 2026-09-17 11:32 -0700
                                Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) James Dow Allen <user4353@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-13 07:31 +0000
                                  Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-13 07:45 -0700
                                    Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-09-13 16:50 +0000
                                      Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-13 16:18 -0700
                                    Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-15 04:21 +0000
                                      Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-15 14:33 +0000
                                      Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-15 07:37 -0700
                                        Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-15 23:35 +0000
                                  Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-14 14:41 -1000
                              Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-09-13 01:54 +0000
                                Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> - 2026-09-13 14:53 -0300
                                  Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-09-13 22:18 +0000
                                  Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-13 16:24 -0700
                                    Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-14 01:51 +0000
                                  Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-14 14:53 +0000
                      Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-04-06 19:21 +0000
                        Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2026-04-06 21:25 +0100
      Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-03-31 02:32 +0000
        Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2026-03-31 04:06 +0100
        Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2026-03-31 08:52 +0100
          Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2026-03-31 18:07 +0100
    Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-30 13:51 -0700
      Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-31 00:58 +0000
        Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-31 07:35 -0700
          Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2026-03-31 14:54 +0000
            Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-31 13:01 -0700
        Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-03-31 22:14 +0000
          Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2026-03-31 22:32 +0000
          Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-04-01 02:06 +0000
            Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2026-04-01 09:53 +0000
              Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-04-01 16:07 +0000
                Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2026-04-01 16:27 +0000
              Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-04-01 16:10 +0000
              Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2026-04-01 17:15 +0100
                Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2026-04-01 16:28 +0000
                  Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-04-01 16:48 +0000
                    Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-04-01 17:44 +0000
                    Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-01 14:21 -0700
                Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-01 20:40 +0000
                  Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-04-01 22:02 +0000
                Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2026-04-02 15:28 +0100
                  Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-04-02 15:36 +0000
                    Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2026-04-02 17:15 +0100
                    Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-04-02 16:44 +0000
    Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-30 21:30 +0000
      Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2026-03-30 23:28 +0100
        Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-30 23:36 +0000
          Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-31 07:46 -0700
            Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2026-03-31 15:54 +0100
            Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-31 19:03 +0000
        Re: VM history, was Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-31 01:04 +0000
          Re: VM history, was Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-03-31 22:17 +0000
      Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-30 15:36 -0700
        Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-03-31 22:19 +0000

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#234613

Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
> CMS didn’t do multiuser. Hence the need for the “VM” part.

some of the MIT CTSS/7094 people went to 5th flr to do MULTICS, others
went to IBM Cambridge Science Center on the 4th flr and did CP40&CP67
virtual machine (and single user monitor "CMS" specifically designed for
running in virtual machine ... although originally it could run on 360
native hardware (early CMS development was on "bare" 360/40 before CP40
was operational) .... but that capability was removed in transition from
CP67 to VM370).

Originallly CSC wanted 360/50 to modify with virtual memory ... but all
the spare 50s were going to FAA/ATC and so had to settle for 360/40 and
did CP40/CMS ... when 360/67 standard with virtual memory came
available, CP40 morphs into CP67.

Note: virtual memory done for 360/40 modifications were somewhat
different from virtual memory done from 360/67 ... more information
available here:
https://www.leeandmelindavarian.com/Melinda/JimMarch/CP40_The_Origin_of_VM370.pdf

with decision to add virtual memory to all 370s, some of the CSC people,
took over the IBM Boston Programming Center on the 3rd flr for the VM370
Development group.

3rd flr BPC before becoming VM370 development group, had earlier done
CPS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversational_Programming_System
... although a lot was subcontracted out to Allen-Babcock (including the
CPS microcode assist for the 360/50)
https://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/allen-babcock/cps/
https://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/allen-babcock/cps/CPS_Progress_Report_may66.pdf

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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#234608

Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
> On Fri, 03 Apr 2026 16:53:28 -1000, Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>
>> Largest 360/67 1-CPU had one mbyte memory ... mostly taken up by
>> TSS/360 kernel ...
>
> Wikipedia says TSS was not a great success.
>
> Did any timesharing OSes from IBM enjoy much success? Maybe TSO? Did
> that do multiuser, without the need for VMs?

after CSC came out to install CP67/CMS (and before I had done any major
rewrites), IBM still had a TSS/360 SE onsite and I had to periodically
let him use some of my weekend time.

we put together a simulated interactive fortran edit, compile, execute
benchmark (10 secs delay between every simulated terminal input; ... and
cp67/cms had much better throughput and much better interactive response
for 30 simulated users than tss/360 for 4 simulated users

after I joined IBM and integrated all my CP67 enhancements and did more
... the CSC 768kbyte 360/67 was running 75-80 users (104 pageable 4kbyte
pages after fixed kernel and my global page replacement).

IBM Grenoble Scientific Center had a 1mbyte 360/67 and modified it to
correspond to the 60s literature on paging working set dispatcher with
"local LRU" page replacement (155 pageable 4kbyte pages after fixed
kernel) running 35 users. The two user workloads were similar, but CSC
had higher throughput and much better interactive response.

Early 80s, Jim Gray had left SJR and joined Tandem and asked me if I
could help a Tandem co-worker get his Stanford Phd ... which involved
"global LRU" page replacement and the 60s "local LRU" forces were trying
to block Phd involving "global LRU" ... Jim knew I had loads of my CSC
CP67/CMS "global LRU" data as well as loads of Grenoble CP67/CMS "local
LRU" data ... more than twice as many users with better performance but
only 2/3rds the pageable real storage.

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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#234610

On 2026-04-03 20:57, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Apr 2026 16:53:28 -1000, Lynn Wheeler wrote:
> 
>> Largest 360/67 1-CPU had one mbyte memory ... mostly taken up by
>> TSS/360 kernel ...
> 
> Wikipedia says TSS was not a great success.
> 
> Did any timesharing OSes from IBM enjoy much success? Maybe TSO? Did
> that do multiuser, without the need for VMs?

IBM's flagship OSs were versions of OS/360, later including OS/370, MVS, 
etc. The internals were apparently not suited for interactive program 
execution, where each terminal was likely to be running a different 
program. What they did very well at, was for a permanently running 
program to handle transaction processing for a large network of 
terminals, where each terminal/host/terminal handshake sent out a 
prompt/data entry form, then received it back when the user hit enter, 
and finally sent out the response. The nature of the polled multidrop 
clusters allowed the queue of not-yet-processed transactions to sit in 
each originating terminal instead of taking up host memory for the queue.

On this foundation, were built a number of functionally similar 
"Conversational Remote Job Entry" systems; some (CRJE) developed and 
released by IBM, some developed by university computer centers and 
shared with other customers. My exposure to the kind, was the WITS 
(Waterloo Interactive Terminal System) developed at University of 
Waterloo in Ontario, where the WATFOR fast compile-and-go FORTRAN 
teaching system also came from.

The system was essentially a large multi-user file editor, which could 
submit batch jobs into a virtual card reader; either provided by HASP 
(Houston Automatic Spooling and Priority Scheduler) or to an "initiator"
module in OS, which thought it saw a card reader connected to a channel 
that really just had a loopback connector on the end. A similar virtual 
printer and virtual card punch could bring jobs back to the editor 
complex where the were copied to user files to be edited, alter to be 
printed or used as input for new jobs.

This kind of subsystem was ubiquitous in OS/3[67]0 installations and 
greatly improved programmer productivity compared t using physical cards 
for job submission.

In comparison, the UNIVAC EXEC_8 OS had much lower per-job overhead, and 
allowed
1) Small undergraduate jobs from programming classes to run as fast as
    WATFOR could process similar jobs in its (mostly interpretive?)
    system.
2) True interactive jobs using the same JCL as batch jobs.

At the Univac based university data center where I learned my trade, we 
knew we had to compete with the IBM OS/HASP/WITS/WATFOR center across 
town, where WATFOR jobs were free. Our solution was to have an express 
job queue where you could run any job that was under 5 CPU seconds at 
the highest priority, so that it came bac "instantly".

The third center ran a CDC 6600 with KRONOS. I am not sure if it was 
CRJE or truly interactive.

-- 
Lars Poulsen - an old geek in Santa Barbara, California

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#234621 — Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 (VSCP)

In article <10qrt7k$v684$1@dont-email.me>,
Lars Poulsen  <lars@beagle-ears.com> wrote:
>On 2026-04-03 20:57, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Fri, 03 Apr 2026 16:53:28 -1000, Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>> 
>>> Largest 360/67 1-CPU had one mbyte memory ... mostly taken up by
>>> TSS/360 kernel ...
>> 
>> Wikipedia says TSS was not a great success.
>> 
>> Did any timesharing OSes from IBM enjoy much success? Maybe TSO? Did
>> that do multiuser, without the need for VMs?
>
>IBM's flagship OSs were versions of OS/360, later including OS/370, MVS, 
>etc. The internals were apparently not suited for interactive program 
>execution, where each terminal was likely to be running a different 
>program. What they did very well at, was for a permanently running 
>program to handle transaction processing for a large network of 
>terminals, where each terminal/host/terminal handshake sent out a 
>prompt/data entry form, then received it back when the user hit enter, 
>and finally sent out the response. The nature of the polled multidrop 
>clusters allowed the queue of not-yet-processed transactions to sit in 
>each originating terminal instead of taking up host memory for the queue.
>
>On this foundation, were built a number of functionally similar 
>"Conversational Remote Job Entry" systems; some (CRJE) developed and 
>released by IBM, some developed by university computer centers and 
>shared with other customers. My exposure to the kind, was the WITS 
>(Waterloo Interactive Terminal System) developed at University of 
>Waterloo in Ontario, where the WATFOR fast compile-and-go FORTRAN 
>teaching system also came from.
>
>The system was essentially a large multi-user file editor, which could 
>submit batch jobs into a virtual card reader; either provided by HASP 
>(Houston Automatic Spooling and Priority Scheduler) or to an "initiator"
>module in OS, which thought it saw a card reader connected to a channel 
>that really just had a loopback connector on the end. A similar virtual 
>printer and virtual card punch could bring jobs back to the editor 
>complex where the were copied to user files to be edited, alter to be 
>printed or used as input for new jobs.
>
>This kind of subsystem was ubiquitous in OS/3[67]0 installations and 
>greatly improved programmer productivity compared t using physical cards 
>for job submission.
>
>In comparison, the UNIVAC EXEC_8 OS had much lower per-job overhead, and 
>allowed
>1) Small undergraduate jobs from programming classes to run as fast as
>    WATFOR could process similar jobs in its (mostly interpretive?)
>    system.
>2) True interactive jobs using the same JCL as batch jobs.
>
>At the Univac based university data center where I learned my trade, we 
>knew we had to compete with the IBM OS/HASP/WITS/WATFOR center across 
>town, where WATFOR jobs were free. Our solution was to have an express 
>job queue where you could run any job that was under 5 CPU seconds at 
>the highest priority, so that it came bac "instantly".
>
>The third center ran a CDC 6600 with KRONOS. I am not sure if it was 
>CRJE or truly interactive.
>

Does anyone remember VSPC?  I think it stood for Virtual Storage
Personal Computing, and USC (East) ran it on the 370 and then Amdahl
mainframe while I was an undergrad circa 1980.  Each user had 16K
of card space (maybe non-students got more?) to edit on 3270s and
submit with JCL as though it were a card deck.  The result could
go to the printer, or, I think, back to a virtual printer in your
account which you could also access at the terminal.  Similarly,
you could have a virtual card printer, and you could use that to
game the 16k limit by having some of your decks printed to it so
they also seemed to live in your account.  The fly in *that* ointment
is that the sysadmins would randomly delete virtual card jobs when
they felt like it.
-- 
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

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#234615

antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) writes:
> AFAICS main factor was that TSS/360 was too big, which left too
> little core for users which lead to intensive paging when one
> tried to increase number of users.  Also, VM quite early got
> good paging algorithm, other IBM systems used worse algorithms
> and improved them only later.

trivia: at the time TSS/360 was "decomitted", there were 1200 people in
the TSS/360 organization and 12 people in the CP67/CMS group.

the CP67/CMS organization got even smaller by the time I graduated and
joined CSC with the commercial CP67/CMS online 60s' spin-offs of CSC
(along with some from MIT Lincoln Labs).

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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#234616

On Sat, 04 Apr 2026 12:53:28 -1000, Lynn Wheeler wrote:

> trivia: at the time TSS/360 was "decomitted", there were 1200 people
> in the TSS/360 organization and 12 people in the CP67/CMS group.

I wonder how many people at DEC worked on TOPS-10 ... remember, they
were able to provide true multiuser support from the get-go, which CMS
could not.

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#234618

On 05/04/2026 00:44, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sat, 04 Apr 2026 12:53:28 -1000, Lynn Wheeler wrote:
> 
>> trivia: at the time TSS/360 was "decomitted", there were 1200 people
>> in the TSS/360 organization and 12 people in the CP67/CMS group.
> 
> I wonder how many people at DEC worked on TOPS-10 ... remember, they
> were able to provide true multiuser support from the get-go, which CMS
> could not.

No but CMS is still in use today, and it still doesn't provide true 
multi user support whatever that is

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#234620 — Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502

According to David Wade  <g4ugm@dave.invalid>:
>On 05/04/2026 00:44, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>> I wonder how many people at DEC worked on TOPS-10 ... remember, they
>> were able to provide true multiuser support from the get-go, which CMS
>> could not.
>
>No but CMS is still in use today, and it still doesn't provide true 
>multi user support whatever that is

No matter what it is, it would make no sense since it only runs under VM which provides
quite a lot of multi-user support.

I would also note that any VM system that can run CMS can also run several flavors of linux,
all at the same time, if that's what you want.






-- 
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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#234623 — Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502

John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:
> No matter what it is, it would make no sense since it only runs under
> VM which provides quite a lot of multi-user support.
>
> I would also note that any VM system that can run CMS can also run
> several flavors of linux, all at the same time, if that's what you
> want.

"Future System" overlapped adding virtual memory to all 370s, FS was
totally different than 370 and was going to completely replace it,
internal politics during FS was killing off 370 projects and lack of new
370 during FS period is credited with giving clone 370 makers their
market foothold.

when "FS" finally imploded, there was mad rush to get stuff back into
370 product pipeline, including kicking off quick&dirty 3033&3081 in
parallel.

1974, CERN presented comparison of VM370/CMS and MVS/TSO at SHARE ...
inside IBM the report was classified "IBM Confidential - Restricted" "on
need to know" only (not wanting internal employees see the
comparison). How much better VM370/CMS looked likely was major factor in
the head of POK (high-end 370s) convincing corporate to kill the
VM370/CMS product, shutdown the development group and transfer all the
people to POK for MVS/XA (Endicott lab eventually manages to acquire the
VM370/CMS product mission, but had to recreate a development group from
scratch).

part of reason that other RDBMS shipping before System/R was opposition
from "IMS" (&  then EAGLE)

I transfer out to SJR on the west coast and work with Jim Gray and Vera
Watson on the original SQL/relational, System/R (all work having been
done on VM370/CMS). Sign a System/R joint study with BofA and they order
60 VM/4341s for distributed operation (sort of leading edge of coming
distributed computing tsunami). Branch office hears about engineering
4341 and Jan1979 cons me into doing benchmark for national lab that was
looking at ordering 70 VM/4341s for compute farm (sort of leading edge
of coming cluster super computing tsunami).

VM/4341 starts shipping to customers summer 1979 and begin seeing large
corporations ordering hundreds of VM/4341s at a time for placing out in
departmental areas (inside IBM, departmental conference rooms were
becoming scarce since so many were being converted into departmental
VM/4341 computing rooms).

Was also able to do System/R tech transfer to Endicott for SQL/DS
("under the radar" with the corporation pre-occupied with the next great
DBMS, "EAGLE" ... System/R having met lots of opposition by both the
"IMS" & "EAGLE" DBMS forces). When "EAGLE" implodes, get request from
STL for how fast could "System/R" be ported to MVS ... eventually
released as "DB2" originally for "decision support" only.

trivia: old archived post with decade of VAX/VMS numbers ... VM/4341s
sold in approx. same numbers in single or small unit numbers ... big
difference were the large orders for hundreds of VM/4341 at a time.
https://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#0

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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#234625 — Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502

On 4/5/26 17:30, Lynn Wheeler wrote:
> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:
>> No matter what it is, it would make no sense since it only runs under
>> VM which provides quite a lot of multi-user support.
>>
>> I would also note that any VM system that can run CMS can also run
>> several flavors of linux, all at the same time, if that's what you
>> want.
> 
> "Future System" overlapped adding virtual memory to all 370s, FS was
> totally different than 370 and was going to completely replace it,
> internal politics during FS was killing off 370 projects and lack of new
> 370 during FS period is credited with giving clone 370 makers their
> market foothold.
> 
> when "FS" finally imploded, there was mad rush to get stuff back into
> 370 product pipeline, including kicking off quick&dirty 3033&3081 in
> parallel.
> 
> 1974, CERN presented comparison of VM370/CMS and MVS/TSO at SHARE ...
> inside IBM the report was classified "IBM Confidential - Restricted" "on
> need to know" only (not wanting internal employees see the
> comparison). How much better VM370/CMS looked likely was major factor in
> the head of POK (high-end 370s) convincing corporate to kill the
> VM370/CMS product, shutdown the development group and transfer all the
> people to POK for MVS/XA (Endicott lab eventually manages to acquire the
> VM370/CMS product mission, but had to recreate a development group from
> scratch).
> 

We lived thru this. Maintenance was so botched for a couple of releases. 
It's a good thing nobody there could hear us.

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#235569 — history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes:
> 1974, CERN presented comparison of VM370/CMS and MVS/TSO at SHARE ...
> inside IBM the report was classified "IBM Confidential - Restricted" "on
> need to know" only (not wanting internal employees see the
> comparison). How much better VM370/CMS looked likely was major factor in
> the head of POK (high-end 370s) convincing corporate to kill the
> VM370/CMS product, shutdown the development group and transfer all the
> people to POK for MVS/XA (Endicott lab eventually manages to acquire the
> VM370/CMS product mission, but had to recreate a development group from
> scratch).
>
> part of reason that other RDBMS shipping before System/R was opposition
> from "IMS" (&  then EAGLE)

Right, Ted Codd had a lot of stories about people inside IBM trying to
convince him to stop talking about relational databases because he was
making IMS look bad.

The dirtiest story of this kind of IBM ratfucking is ASCII, which Bob
Bemer (mostly) developed at IBM — for which IBM exiled him to a position
with no authority, from which he resigned and then had to spend a
quarter century fighting against IBM’s persistent marketing of their
technically inferior EBCDIC.  That’s the way he tells the story, anyway:
<https://web.archive.org/web/20180513204153/http://www.bobbemer.com/P-BIT.HTM>

Looking at the last half century of the US failing at nuclear power and
high-speed rail and losing key technologies like injection-molding die
production, it’s hard to avoid the conclusion that such political
infighting writ large is the culprit.

> trivia: old archived post with decade of VAX/VMS numbers ... VM/4341s
> sold in approx. same numbers in single or small unit numbers ... big
> difference were the large orders for hundreds of VM/4341 at a time.
> https://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#0

Sad to say, garlic.com seems to have broken your link here.
<https://web.archive.org/web/20260310072508/https://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#0>
works for now.  Your post archive links are extremely valuable, and I
hope you can get your archive back on the live web — and maybe license
it under a Creative Commons license so that it’s clearly legal for
people to archive.

I had no idea the MicroVAX-II was so amazingly popular.  102,165 VAXen
shipped by 01986 and 139,000 VAXen shipped by 01987, of which almost
half were the MicroVAX-II according to your IDC figures.

But the writing was kind of on the wall — the Commodore 64 sold over 2
million units in 01986 <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_64>, 20
times as many units as all the VAX models, and 20 Commodore 64s could
serve 20 users, about like a VAX, but with graphics and consistent low
latency.  What the VAX had on them was a nicer OS, networking, and
higher peak throughput.

And faster commodity-hardware computers were on the way.  According to
<https://netlib.org/performance/html/dhrystone.data.col0.html> and the
release years I dug up from Wikipedia:

    | machine                |  year | Dhrystone MIPS |
    |------------------------+-------+----------------|
    | VAX 11/780             | 01977 |       1.03–1.3 |
    | VAX 11/750             | 01980 |           0.62 |
    | Commodore 64           | 01982 |         0.0205 |
    | 7.8MHz 68000 Macintosh | 01984 |           0.52 |
    | MicroVAX-II            | 01985 |           0.92 |
    | Amiga 2000/CSA-MMR     | 01987 |            3.0 |

The disruptive-innovation dynamic was in full swing: the Amiga wasn’t as
good as a ten-year-earlier VAX 11/780 in some ways, like memory
protection and the number of serial ports you could put in it, but it
could do things the VAX couldn’t, like video games, and it *was* three
times as fast.  3½ times as fast as the MVII.

DEC’s efforts to enter the personal computer market like the Rainbow
were not very successful, and they were gradually chased upmarket to
things like the VAX 8000, which we can see never sold in the numbers the
11/780 and MVII did, and DECStations.  Until the Intel patent lawsuit
finally destroyed them.

Kragen

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#235577 — Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

On 9/11/26 14:05, Kragen Javier Sitaker wrote:
> Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes:
[Deleted]
> 
> Kragen

You have a habit of moving discussions from one newsgroup
to another, That kills the conversation.

Where did Lynn's article come from?

Jeroen Belleman

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#235579 — Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

Jeroen Belleman wrote:

> You have a habit of moving discussions from one newsgroup
> to another, That kills the conversation.
> 
> Where did Lynn's article come from?
5 months ago

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#235581 — Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> writes:
> Where did Lynn's article come from?

It came from alt.folklore.computers.

Kragen

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#235582 — Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

On 9/11/26 18:38, Kragen Javier Sitaker wrote:
> Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> writes:
>> Where did Lynn's article come from?
> 
> It came from alt.folklore.computers.
> 
> Kragen

Thanks, found it.

I was interested because she mentioned CERN, where IBM
systems were very much in vogue at the time. Those days
are far behind us now.

Jeroen Belleman

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#235584 — Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

Jeroen Belleman wrote:

> On 9/11/26 18:38, Kragen Javier Sitaker wrote:
>> Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> writes:
>>> Where did Lynn's article come from?
>>
>> It came from alt.folklore.computers.
>>
>> Kragen
> 
> Thanks, found it.
> 
> I was interested because she mentioned CERN
That'll be "he" ...

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#235585 — Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

On 9/11/26 20:18, Andy Burns wrote:
> Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> 
>> On 9/11/26 18:38, Kragen Javier Sitaker wrote:
>>> Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> writes:
>>>> Where did Lynn's article come from?
>>>
>>> It came from alt.folklore.computers.
>>>
>>> Kragen
>>
>> Thanks, found it.
>>
>> I was interested because she mentioned CERN
> That'll be "he" ...
> 

Ah, OK.

When I started at CERN in 1981, the principal computer
system was an IBM 360. We used WYLBUR for the editing
environment, with exec files for simple things and batch
processing with JCL for the more serious work.
It was clumsy, but I didn't know any better at the time.

Jeroen Belleman

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#235586 — Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> writes:
>On 9/11/26 20:18, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>> 
>>> On 9/11/26 18:38, Kragen Javier Sitaker wrote:
>>>> Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> writes:
>>>>> Where did Lynn's article come from?
>>>>
>>>> It came from alt.folklore.computers.
>>>>
>>>> Kragen
>>>
>>> Thanks, found it.
>>>
>>> I was interested because she mentioned CERN
>> That'll be "he" ...
>> 
>
>Ah, OK.
>
>When I started at CERN in 1981, the principal computer
>system was an IBM 360. We used WYLBUR for the editing
>environment, with exec files for simple things and batch
>processing with JCL for the more serious work.

By 1981, most of us had dumped WYLBUR for VMS edt100.

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#235595 — Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> writes:
> When I started at CERN in 1981, the principal computer
> system was an IBM 360. We used WYLBUR for the editing
> environment, with exec files for simple things and batch
> processing with JCL for the more serious work.
> It was clumsy, but I didn't know any better at the time.

trivia: WYLBUR original came from stanford's virtual memory
system done for 360/67 ... Univ of Michigan had done MTS
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Terminal_System
and Stanford had done ORVYL
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORVYL_and_WYLBUR
... later WYLBUR was ported to MVS

Some of the MIT CTSS/7094 people had gone to 5th flr to do
multics. Others went to the IBM Scientific Center on the 4th flr and did
virtual machines (CP40/CMS morphs into CP67/CMS before morphing
into VM370/CMS). CMS SCRIPT (redone CTSS RUNOFF) was done for CP67/CMS in
1968.  Then some CSC co-workers invented GML in 1969 and GML tag
processing was added to SCRIPT. After a decade, GML morphs into ISO
standard SGML and after another decade morphs into HTML at CERN.

Also account by one of the GML inventors ... original hired to promote
CP67-based scientific center wide-area network
https://web.archive.org/web/20230402212558/http://www.sgmlsource.com/history/jasis.htm
Actually, the law office application was the original motivation for the
project, something I was allowed to do part-time because of my knowledge
of the user requirements. My real job was to encourage the staffs of the
various scientific centers to make use of the CP-67-based Wide Area
Network that was centered in Cambridge.

... snip ...

CSC wide-area network morphs into the internal corporate network (larger
than arpanet/internet from the beginning until sometime mid/late 80s
... about the time it was forced to convert to SNA/VTAM). Technology was
also used for the corporate sponsored univ BITNET
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BITNET

Edson (responsible for science center wide area entwork)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edson_Hendricks
In June 1975, MIT Professor Jerry Saltzer accompanied Hendricks to
DARPA, where Hendricks described his innovations to the principal
scientist, Dr. Vinton Cerf. Later that year in September 15-19 of 75,
Cerf and Hendricks were the only two delegates from the United States,
to attend a workshop on Data Communications at the International
Institute for Applied Systems Analysis, 2361 Laxenburg Austria where
again, Hendricks spoke publicly about his innovative design which paved
the way to the Internet as we know it today.

...

SJMerc article about Edson (he passed aug2020) and "IBM'S MISSED
OPPORTUNITY WITH THE INTERNET" (gone behind paywall but lives free at
wayback machine)
https://web.archive.org/web/20000124004147/http://www1.sjmercury.com/svtech/columns/gillmor/docs/dg092499.htm
Also from wayback machine, some additional (IBM missed internet)
references from Ed's website
https://web.archive.org/web/20000115185349/http://www.edh.net/bungle.htm

Ed and I transfer out to SJR on the west coast in 1977 ... and I work
with Jim Gray and Vera Watson on original SQL/relational, System/R. Was
able to do technology transfer ("under the radar while company was
pre-occupied with next great new DBMS "EAGLE") to Endicott for SQL/DS.
Then when "EAGLE" implodes, there was request for how fast could
System/R be ported to MVS, eventually released as DB2 (originally for
decision support *ONLY*).

Also TYMSHARE provides the IBM Mainframe user group, "SHARE" with its
VM370/CMS-based online computer conferencing system for free in AUG1976.
I cut a deal with TYMSHARE to get a monthly tape dump of all VMSHARE
files for putting up on internal network and systems (biggest problem
were the lawyers over exposing internal employees to unfiltered customer
information). archives here:
http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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#235616 — Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502)

On 9/12/2026 17:47, Lynn Wheeler wrote:
> [...]
> trivia: WYLBUR original came from stanford's virtual memory
> system done for 360/67 ... Univ of Michigan had done MTS
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Terminal_System
> and Stanford had done ORVYL
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORVYL_and_WYLBUR
> ... later WYLBUR was ported to MVS

I wonder why there were so many CRJE systems with almost identical features:
* WYLBUR (from Stanford)
* WITS (from Waterloo)
* CRJE (IBM's official option for MVT and MVS)
... any that I have forgotten?

Of course, there was also TSO, but it was a dog, performance wise, so 
none of the education places I knew would use it. I expect that the IBM 
develoment sites used it to develop MVS code?
-- 
Lars Poulsen - an old geek in Santa Barbara, California

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