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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #234452 > unrolled thread

Re: Self-hosting and the 6502

Started byLev <thresh3@fastmail.com>
First post2026-03-30 19:12 +0000
Last post2026-03-31 22:19 +0000
Articles 17 on this page of 137 — 24 participants

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Contents

  Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lev <thresh3@fastmail.com> - 2026-03-30 19:12 +0000
    Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2026-03-30 21:01 +0100
      Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-30 21:02 +0000
      Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-31 00:44 +0000
        Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-03-31 19:46 +0000
          Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-31 20:48 +0000
            Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-04-01 23:23 +0000
              Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-04-02 10:53 +0000
                Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-02 07:29 -0700
                  Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-04-02 16:58 +0000
                    Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-02 20:34 +0000
                      Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-04-02 20:53 +0000
          Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-31 21:01 +0000
          Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-03 16:53 -1000
            Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-04 03:57 +0000
              Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-04 07:37 -0700
                Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-04-04 21:55 +0000
                  Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-04 15:48 -0700
                    Re: ancient time sharingSelf-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-04-05 02:27 +0000
                Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-04 22:03 +0000
                  Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-04 12:31 -1000
              Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-04 07:40 -1000
              Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-04-04 13:44 -0700
                Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 (VSCP) ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2026-04-05 20:23 +0000
          Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-04 12:53 -1000
            Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-04 23:44 +0000
              Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2026-04-05 09:29 +0100
                Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-04-05 19:22 +0000
                  Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-05 14:30 -1000
                    Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-05 20:02 -0700
                    history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> - 2026-09-11 09:05 -0300
                      Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-09-11 16:49 +0200
                        Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-09-11 15:58 +0100
                        Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> - 2026-09-11 13:38 -0300
                          Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-09-11 19:41 +0200
                            Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-09-11 19:18 +0100
                              Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-09-11 21:27 +0200
                                Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-11 21:13 +0000
                                Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-12 14:47 -1000
                                  Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-09-13 15:02 -0700
                                    Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-13 16:27 -0700
                                    Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-14 15:11 -1000
                                      Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-15 04:19 +0000
                                Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-09-13 14:56 -0700
                                  Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-15 04:10 +0000
                                    Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-09-15 05:46 -0700
                                      Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-15 07:51 -0700
                                        Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-15 23:22 +0000
                                      Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-15 23:13 +0000
                                    Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-09-15 16:48 +0200
                                    Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-09-15 08:19 -0700
                        Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-12 14:13 -1000
                      Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-12 14:12 -1000
                        Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> - 2026-09-13 14:02 -0300
                          Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-09-13 18:55 +0100
                            Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-09-13 19:03 +0100
                              Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-09-13 19:07 +0100
                          Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-13 16:21 -0700
                            Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-14 00:37 +0100
                              Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-13 20:56 -0700
                            Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-09-14 04:12 +0000
                          Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-14 15:06 -1000
                  Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-04-06 01:42 +0000
                    Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-05 20:05 -0700
                      Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-06 07:03 +0000
                        Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-05 22:19 -1000
                          Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-06 08:20 +0000
                          Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-04-06 12:03 +0000
                        Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-06 07:30 -0700
                          Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-06 07:39 -1000
                            Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-06 12:05 -0700
                              Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-06 17:41 -1000
                            position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> - 2026-09-11 09:42 -0300
                              Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-12 15:12 -1000
                                Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-09-13 01:57 +0000
                                  Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-12 21:14 -0700
                                  Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2026-09-17 17:06 +0000
                                    Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-17 17:56 +0000
                                      Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2026-09-18 14:08 +0000
                                        Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-18 19:29 +0100
                                          Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-09-18 12:00 -0700
                                            Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-09-18 20:35 +0000
                                    Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Andy Valencia <vandys@vsta.org> - 2026-09-17 11:32 -0700
                                Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) James Dow Allen <user4353@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-13 07:31 +0000
                                  Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-13 07:45 -0700
                                    Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-09-13 16:50 +0000
                                      Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-13 16:18 -0700
                                    Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-15 04:21 +0000
                                      Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-15 14:33 +0000
                                      Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-15 07:37 -0700
                                        Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-15 23:35 +0000
                                  Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-14 14:41 -1000
                              Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-09-13 01:54 +0000
                                Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> - 2026-09-13 14:53 -0300
                                  Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-09-13 22:18 +0000
                                  Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-13 16:24 -0700
                                    Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-14 01:51 +0000
                                  Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-14 14:53 +0000
                      Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-04-06 19:21 +0000
                        Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2026-04-06 21:25 +0100
      Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-03-31 02:32 +0000
        Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2026-03-31 04:06 +0100
        Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2026-03-31 08:52 +0100
          Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2026-03-31 18:07 +0100
    Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-30 13:51 -0700
      Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-31 00:58 +0000
        Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-31 07:35 -0700
          Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2026-03-31 14:54 +0000
            Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-31 13:01 -0700
        Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-03-31 22:14 +0000
          Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2026-03-31 22:32 +0000
          Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-04-01 02:06 +0000
            Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2026-04-01 09:53 +0000
              Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-04-01 16:07 +0000
                Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2026-04-01 16:27 +0000
              Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-04-01 16:10 +0000
              Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2026-04-01 17:15 +0100
                Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2026-04-01 16:28 +0000
                  Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-04-01 16:48 +0000
                    Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-04-01 17:44 +0000
                    Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-01 14:21 -0700
                Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-01 20:40 +0000
                  Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-04-01 22:02 +0000
                Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2026-04-02 15:28 +0100
                  Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-04-02 15:36 +0000
                    Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2026-04-02 17:15 +0100
                    Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-04-02 16:44 +0000
    Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-30 21:30 +0000
      Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2026-03-30 23:28 +0100
        Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-30 23:36 +0000
          Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-31 07:46 -0700
            Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2026-03-31 15:54 +0100
            Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-31 19:03 +0000
        Re: VM history, was Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-31 01:04 +0000
          Re: VM history, was Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-03-31 22:17 +0000
      Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-30 15:36 -0700
        Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-03-31 22:19 +0000

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#234555 — Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502

FromPeter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com>
Date2026-04-01 14:21 -0700
SubjectRe: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502
Message-ID<10qk29d$ipcc$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#234546
On 4/1/26 09:48, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> writes:
>> On Wed, 01 Apr 2026 17:15:19 +0100, Andy Walker wrote:
>>
>>> On 01/04/2026 10:53, Bob Eager wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 01 Apr 2026 02:06:34 +0000, John Levine wrote:
>>> [Linkers and Loaders:]
>>>>> When I wrote the book proposal in 1999 (yes, that long ago) part of
>>>>> the>> pitch was that there had been linkers and loaders since the late
>>>>> 1940s but there'd never been more than the occasional article or
>>>>> chapter. So either this was the book that the world had been awaiting
>>>>> for half a century, or this will prove that there is no market for it.
>>>>> It kind of did both, never selling huge numbers but still in print.
>>>> There had been an entire book, but it was only a monograph really. I
>>>> can't find a mention online, but I have a copy.
>>>
>>> 	David Barron's 1068 monograph?  This is called "Assemblers and
>>> Loaders", but it does include a chapter on "Loaders and Linkage
>>> Editors".
>>
>> That's the one. I didn't quite remember the title correctly. I had to go
>> and find it!
> 
> https://archive.org/details/assemblersloader0000barr/page/n1/mode/2up
> 

Thanks!

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#234553 — Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502

FromLawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2026-04-01 20:40 +0000
SubjectRe: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502
Message-ID<10qjvsf$i3m5$3@dont-email.me>
In reply to#234543
On Wed, 1 Apr 2026 17:15:19 +0100, Andy Walker wrote:

> David Barron's 1068 monograph? This is called "Assemblers and
> Loaders", but it does include a chapter on "Loaders and Linkage
> Editors".

How about Ulrich Drepper’s 47-page document on “How To Write Shared
Libraries”, written a couple of decades ago? He is/was the principal
maintainer of GNU libc. So he goes into issues like versioning and
backward compatibility, which is a lot more important on Linux systems
today than it was back on computer systems of, say, the 1980s.

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#234557 — Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502

Fromscott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
Date2026-04-01 22:02 +0000
SubjectRe: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502
Message-ID<vBgzR.66428$pL1.8883@fx05.iad>
In reply to#234553
Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>On Wed, 1 Apr 2026 17:15:19 +0100, Andy Walker wrote:
>
>> David Barron's 1068 monograph? This is called "Assemblers and
>> Loaders", but it does include a chapter on "Loaders and Linkage
>> Editors".
>
>How about Ulrich Drepper’s 47-page document on “How To Write Shared
>Libraries”, written a couple of decades ago? He is/was the principal
>maintainer of GNU libc. So he goes into issues like versioning and
>backward compatibility, which is a lot more important on Linux systems
>today than it was back on computer systems of, say, the 1980s.

Linux implemented the System V Release 4 dynamic shared objects, which
supported both versioning and backward compatability long before
linux supported more than the simple a.out format.

ELF, for example, was the standard format for executables, object
files and shared objects in SVR4 (1989ish).  It was eventually adopted by
linux and is still used today.

Some of the SVR4 dynamic shared object implementation originated in SunOS.

SVR3 had static shared libraries, which were difficult to use effectively.

The Burroughs B5500 and descendents innovated shared libraries in the early 1960s,
and the HP-3000 also leveraged shared libraries very effectively and
architecturally (not surprising given the Burroughs heritage of some
of the HP-3000 design team).  Both systems had hardware segmentation
capabilities, which provided code isolation.

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#234574 — Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502

FromAndy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk>
Date2026-04-02 15:28 +0100
SubjectRe: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502
Message-ID<10qlue1$tnm9$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#234543
On 01/04/2026 17:15, Andy Walker wrote:
> On 01/04/2026 10:53, Bob Eager wrote:
>> There had been an entire book, but it was only a monograph really. I can't
>> find a mention online, but I have a copy.
>      David Barron's 1068 monograph?  This is called "Assemblers and
> Loaders", [...].
	I don't suppose anyone was deceived, but in the interests of
accuracy, the publication date was not /that/ early!  Typo for "1968".
[I find that I now do so little actual typing, as opposed to dabbing,
that typos now abound in what I type, and are difficult to spot in the
typeface that my monitor uses and with the eyes that my head uses.]

-- 
Andy Walker, Nottingham.
    Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
    Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Smith

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#234579 — Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502

Fromscott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
Date2026-04-02 15:36 +0000
SubjectRe: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502
Message-ID<l2wzR.138531$WE1.2348@fx08.iad>
In reply to#234574
Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> writes:
>On 01/04/2026 17:15, Andy Walker wrote:
>> On 01/04/2026 10:53, Bob Eager wrote:
>>> There had been an entire book, but it was only a monograph really. I can't
>>> find a mention online, but I have a copy.
>>      David Barron's 1068 monograph?  This is called "Assemblers and
>> Loaders", [...].
>	I don't suppose anyone was deceived, but in the interests of
>accuracy, the publication date was not /that/ early!  Typo for "1968".
>[I find that I now do so little actual typing, as opposed to dabbing,
>that typos now abound in what I type, and are difficult to spot in the
>typeface that my monitor uses and with the eyes that my head uses.]

Well, 1066 is a notable date in your neck of the woods...

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#234580 — Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502

FromAndy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk>
Date2026-04-02 17:15 +0100
SubjectRe: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502
Message-ID<10qm4ng$tnm9$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#234579
On 02/04/2026 16:36, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> writes:
>>>	David Barron's 1068 monograph? [...].
>> 	I don't suppose anyone was deceived, but in the interests of
>> accuracy, the publication date was not /that/ early!  Typo for "1968".
> Well, 1066 is a notable date in your neck of the woods...

	1966 was similarly notable ....  [In more than my neck!]

-- 
Andy Walker, Nottingham.
    Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
    Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Smith

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#234582 — Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502

Fromcross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross)
Date2026-04-02 16:44 +0000
SubjectRe: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502
Message-ID<10qm6ci$kbt$1@reader2.panix.com>
In reply to#234579
In article <l2wzR.138531$WE1.2348@fx08.iad>,
Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
>Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> writes:
>>On 01/04/2026 17:15, Andy Walker wrote:
>>> On 01/04/2026 10:53, Bob Eager wrote:
>>>> There had been an entire book, but it was only a monograph really. I can't
>>>> find a mention online, but I have a copy.
>>>      David Barron's 1068 monograph?  This is called "Assemblers and
>>> Loaders", [...].
>>	I don't suppose anyone was deceived, but in the interests of
>>accuracy, the publication date was not /that/ early!  Typo for "1968".
>>[I find that I now do so little actual typing, as opposed to dabbing,
>>that typos now abound in what I type, and are difficult to spot in the
>>typeface that my monitor uses and with the eyes that my head uses.]
>
>Well, 1066 is a notable date in your neck of the woods...

I had a friend in high school who's address was 1066 Saxon Dr.
I always thought that was kind of funny.

	- Dan C.

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#234460

FromLawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2026-03-30 21:30 +0000
Message-ID<10qeq1l$2qded$5@dont-email.me>
In reply to#234452
On Mon, 30 Mar 2026 19:12:24 -0000 (UTC), Lev wrote:

> So CP/67 started as a way to stop people fighting over machine time
> - basically a scheduling problem. And then it turned out that the
> solution (just give everyone their own virtual machine) was general
> enough to outlast the original problem.

That still couldn’t offer much in the way of sharing facilities, like
a true multiuser system (such as Unix and the DEC ones) was able to
manage.

In the IBM system, communication between users would have required
communication between VMs. In other words, a (virtual) peer-to-peer
network. But IBM didn’t have anything like that for close to another
two decades.

You see why I refer to IBM’s system as a “hack”?

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#234462

FromDavid Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid>
Date2026-03-30 23:28 +0100
Message-ID<10qetdj$279ul$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#234460
On 30/03/2026 22:30, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Mar 2026 19:12:24 -0000 (UTC), Lev wrote:
> 
>> So CP/67 started as a way to stop people fighting over machine time
>> - basically a scheduling problem. And then it turned out that the
>> solution (just give everyone their own virtual machine) was general
>> enough to outlast the original problem.
> 
> That still couldn’t offer much in the way of sharing facilities, like
> a true multiuser system (such as Unix and the DEC ones) was able to
> manage.
> 
> In the IBM system, communication between users would have required
> communication between VMs. In other words, a (virtual) peer-to-peer
> network. But IBM didn’t have anything like that for close to another
> two decades.

Depends on what you mean "close to that". The VMCF facility provided a 
transport, but there wasn't much that used it until TCP/IP ....
... but users could send messages and files to each other, and between 
machines which was sufficient.....

> 
> You see why I refer to IBM’s system as a “hack”?

It was what it was.

Dave

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#234467

FromLawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2026-03-30 23:36 +0000
Message-ID<10qf1df$2t6ig$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#234462
On Mon, 30 Mar 2026 23:28:03 +0100, David Wade wrote:

> It was what it was.

That means what it means.

A phrase popularized by a man whose utterances are often dangerously
close to Wernicke’s aphasia.

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#234489

FromJohn Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
Date2026-03-31 07:46 -0700
Message-ID<20260331074644.000024ad@gmail.com>
In reply to#234467
On Mon, 30 Mar 2026 23:36:16 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

> > It was what it was.  
> 
> That means what it means.
> 
> A phrase popularized by a man whose utterances are often dangerously
> close to Wernicke’s aphasia.

I've often thought that that phrase is as close as you could possibly
get to a literally content-free sentence while maintaining a non-zero
wordcount.

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#234492

Fromsnipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe)
Date2026-03-31 15:54 +0100
Message-ID<1rsuenk.sj91uf1rc9jztN%snipeco.2@gmail.com>
In reply to#234489
John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 30 Mar 2026 23:36:16 -0000 (UTC)
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> 
> > > It was what it was.  
> > 
> > That means what it means.
> > 
> > A phrase popularized by a man whose utterances are often dangerously
> > close to Wernicke's aphasia.
> 
> I've often thought that that phrase is as close as you could possibly
> get to a literally content-free sentence while maintaining a non-zero
> wordcount.

# You Are What You Is  --FZ

-- 
^Ï^.          Sn!pe, bird-brain.          My pet rock Gordon just is.

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#234499

FromCharlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date2026-03-31 19:03 +0000
Message-ID<tUUyR.1572566$At07.86337@fx17.iad>
In reply to#234489
On 2026-03-31, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 30 Mar 2026 23:36:16 -0000 (UTC)
> Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> It was what it was.  
>> 
>> That means what it means.
>> 
>> A phrase popularized by a man whose utterances are often dangerously
>> close to Wernicke’s aphasia.
>
> I've often thought that that phrase is as close as you could possibly
> get to a literally content-free sentence while maintaining a non-zero
> wordcount.

    He can compress the most words into the
    smallest ideas of any man I ever met.
      -- Abraham Lincoln

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  Growth for the sake of
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  growth is the ideology
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  of the cancer cell.
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |    -- Edward Abbey

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#234471 — Re: VM history, was Self-hosting and the 6502

FromJohn Levine <johnl@taugh.com>
Date2026-03-31 01:04 +0000
SubjectRe: VM history, was Self-hosting and the 6502
Message-ID<10qf6ji$2u8s$3@gal.iecc.com>
In reply to#234462
According to David Wade  <g4ugm@dave.invalid>:
>> In the IBM system, communication between users would have required
>> communication between VMs. In other words, a (virtual) peer-to-peer
>> network. But IBM didn’t have anything like that for close to another
>> two decades.
>
>Depends on what you mean "close to that". The VMCF facility provided a 
>transport, but there wasn't much that used it until TCP/IP ....
>... but users could send messages and files to each other, and between 
>machines which was sufficient.....

You could hook the virtual card punch in one machine to the virtual reader
in another through a virtual card chute.  The RSCS daemon used that to
communicate with other processes on the same machine, and over networks
to other machines.  That was BITNET which grew to 3000 nodes and provided
email and a vibrant community of discussion lists in the late 1980s.

-- 
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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#234514 — Re: VM history, was Self-hosting and the 6502

Fromcross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross)
Date2026-03-31 22:17 +0000
SubjectRe: VM history, was Self-hosting and the 6502
Message-ID<10qhh5g$2d3$3@reader2.panix.com>
In reply to#234471
In article <10qf6ji$2u8s$3@gal.iecc.com>, John Levine  <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>According to David Wade  <g4ugm@dave.invalid>:
>>> In the IBM system, communication between users would have required
>>> communication between VMs. In other words, a (virtual) peer-to-peer
>>> network. But IBM didn’t have anything like that for close to another
>>> two decades.
>>
>>Depends on what you mean "close to that". The VMCF facility provided a 
>>transport, but there wasn't much that used it until TCP/IP ....
>>... but users could send messages and files to each other, and between 
>>machines which was sufficient.....
>
>You could hook the virtual card punch in one machine to the virtual reader
>in another through a virtual card chute.  The RSCS daemon used that to
>communicate with other processes on the same machine, and over networks
>to other machines.  That was BITNET which grew to 3000 nodes and provided
>email and a vibrant community of discussion lists in the late 1980s.

...and BITNET relays arguably gave rise to IRC and the
distributed messaging platforms we see proliferating these days
(Discord, Matrix, Slack, Google's myriad of incompatible options
and Facbook messanger and etc).

	- Dan C.

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#234463

FromPeter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com>
Date2026-03-30 15:36 -0700
Message-ID<10qetss$2s1bg$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#234460
On 3/30/26 14:30, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Mar 2026 19:12:24 -0000 (UTC), Lev wrote:
> 
>> So CP/67 started as a way to stop people fighting over machine time
>> - basically a scheduling problem. And then it turned out that the
>> solution (just give everyone their own virtual machine) was general
>> enough to outlast the original problem.
> 
> That still couldn’t offer much in the way of sharing facilities, like
> a true multiuser system (such as Unix and the DEC ones) was able to
> manage.
> 
> In the IBM system, communication between users would have required
> communication between VMs. In other words, a (virtual) peer-to-peer
> network. But IBM didn’t have anything like that for close to another
> two decades.
> 
> You see why I refer to IBM’s system as a “hack”?

Depends on what you mean by "communication". You cold exchange files via 
the spool subsystem. You could send messages. You could share minidisks 
(dangerously). I implemented a multi-process system in Rexx this way - 
write a file, send someone a message telling them to process it, delete 
when done.  Not the cleanest model, but it got the job done.

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#234515

Fromcross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross)
Date2026-03-31 22:19 +0000
Message-ID<10qhh96$2d3$4@reader2.panix.com>
In reply to#234463
In article <10qetss$2s1bg$1@dont-email.me>,
Peter Flass  <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> wrote:
>On 3/30/26 14:30, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Mon, 30 Mar 2026 19:12:24 -0000 (UTC), Lev wrote:
>> 
>>> So CP/67 started as a way to stop people fighting over machine time
>>> - basically a scheduling problem. And then it turned out that the
>>> solution (just give everyone their own virtual machine) was general
>>> enough to outlast the original problem.
>> 
>> That still couldn’t offer much in the way of sharing facilities, like
>> a true multiuser system (such as Unix and the DEC ones) was able to
>> manage.
>> 
>> In the IBM system, communication between users would have required
>> communication between VMs. In other words, a (virtual) peer-to-peer
>> network. But IBM didn’t have anything like that for close to another
>> two decades.
>> 
>> You see why I refer to IBM’s system as a “hack”?
>
>Depends on what you mean by "communication". You cold exchange files via 
>the spool subsystem. You could send messages. You could share minidisks 
>(dangerously). I implemented a multi-process system in Rexx this way - 
>write a file, send someone a message telling them to process it, delete 
>when done.  Not the cleanest model, but it got the job done.

Someone wrote 'RELAY EXEC' on the local 3090.  The idea was you
linked to someone's minidisk read-only, then this program would
query CP to get the list of connected users, and ask RSCS to
send them messages.  It was a sort of primitive intra-machine
multiuser chat system, but it worked remarkably well and was
very popular with the students (not so much the administrators).

	- Dan C.

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