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Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator

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  Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator anthk@not.dev.null - 2026-08-17 23:57 +0200
    Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-08-18 00:07 +0000
      Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx> - 2026-08-18 11:51 +0000
        Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-08-18 22:15 -0400
      Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-08-18 22:13 -0400
    Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-23 07:32 +0000
      Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-08-23 07:40 -0700
        Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-23 22:07 +0000
          Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-24 07:27 +0800
            Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> - 2026-08-24 01:31 +0000
              Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-08-25 15:02 -0400
      Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-08-23 23:36 -0400
    Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-23 23:13 +0800
      Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-08-23 11:20 -0700
        Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-23 22:11 +0000
          Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-24 07:28 +0800
          Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-08-23 23:39 -0400
        Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-25 01:15 +0800
          Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-25 03:28 +0800
            Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-25 12:20 +0800
              Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-08-25 15:34 +0000
                Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-08-25 09:35 -0700
                  Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-08-25 17:00 +0000
                  Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-28 20:07 +0800
                    Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-29 16:59 +0800
                      Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-30 04:13 +0800
                Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-08-25 11:22 -0700
                  Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-25 21:43 +0000
                    Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-08-26 15:34 +0000
                  Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-29 17:08 +0800
                Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-28 20:12 +0800
                  Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-08-28 18:14 +0000
                  Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-08-28 21:02 -0400
                    Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-29 10:15 +0800
                      Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-29 11:55 +0800
                        Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-29 17:38 +0800
                          Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-30 04:09 +0800
                        Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-08-29 18:31 -0400
                          Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-30 11:33 +0800
                        Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-08-31 09:34 -0700
                          Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-09-02 22:59 +0800
                            Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-09-02 08:29 -0700
                              Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-02 12:36 -0700
                                Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-09-02 13:00 -0700
                                  Re: Origin Of Filename ... Babylon cuneiforms etched on bread? Exorcism? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-09-04 12:24 +0800
                                Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-02 21:55 +0000
                                  Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? James Dow Allen <user4353@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-03 04:44 +0000
                                    Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-03 04:57 +0000
                                      Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? James Dow Allen <user4353@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-03 05:29 +0000
                                        Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-03 06:57 +0000
                                          Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? James Dow Allen <user4353@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-03 10:06 +0000
                                        The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-03 18:29 +0800
                                          Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-09-03 08:02 -0700
                                            Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-03 15:49 +0000
                                            Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-09-03 14:08 -0400
                                              Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-09-03 11:34 -0700
                                                Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-09-03 18:01 -0400
                                                  Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-03 15:26 -0700
                                                Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-09-04 04:51 +0200
                                                  Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) James Dow Allen <user4353@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-04 04:27 +0000
                                                    Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-04 12:52 +0800
                                                      Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-09-04 08:15 -0700
                                                    Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-09-05 06:05 +0200
                                                      Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) James Dow Allen <user4353@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-05 09:13 +0000
                                                        Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-05 21:09 +0000
                                            Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? Malcolm Purvis <malcolm@purvis.id.au> - 2026-09-04 06:49 +1000
                                              Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-03 21:27 +0000
                                  Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-03 08:28 -0700
                            Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-09-02 15:37 -0400
                      Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-08-29 05:25 +0000
                        Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-29 13:35 +0800
                          Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-08-29 17:35 +0000
                            Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-08-29 15:42 -0400
                              Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-08-29 21:07 +0000
                                Re: Origin Of .... "say what?" "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-30 18:00 +0800
                            Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-30 04:17 +0800
                    Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Charles Hope <clh@candehope.me.uk> - 2026-08-29 09:45 +0000
                  Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-29 17:14 +0800
                    Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-30 03:52 +0800
                    Re: Origin Of ..... Darklands the video game? Medieval Europe? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-30 04:24 +0800
                      Re: Origin Of ..... Darklands & the Holy Roman Empire? 15th century?? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-30 16:47 +0800
                      Re: Origin Of ..... Darklands the video game? Medieval Europe? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-31 17:08 +0800
                        Re: Origin Of ..... Darklands the video game? Medieval Europe? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-31 16:40 +0100
                          Re: Origin Of ..... Darklands the video game? Medieval Europe? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-03 00:06 +0800
                        Re: Origin Of ..... Darklands the video game? Medieval Europe? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-09-02 23:02 +0800
               Tops-10 filename/extension representation [was Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator] Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-08-25 16:15 -0400
                Re: Tops-10 filename/extension representation [was Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator] Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> - 2026-09-05 10:14 -0300
                  Re: Tops-10 filename/extension representation [was Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator] Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-05 21:11 +0000

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#235498 — Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?

On 9/1/2026 12:34 AM, John Ames wrote:
> 
> Cuneiform is pictographic in origin too; but it was developed by
> scribes who mainly used wedge-shaped reeds to stamp on clay tablets,
> rather than ink and pen to write on papyrus (or paint on walls,) so the
> shapes were more abstract than hieroglyphs. IIRC, as it changed over
> time the characters eventually became unrecognizable as even abstract
> pictures unless you compare them against the earlier forms.


Maybe the clay tablets we found were just
student work to master etching tools.

-- 

    @~@   Simplicity is Beauty! Remain silent! Drink, Blink, Stretch!
   / v \  May the Force and farces be with you! Live long and prosper!!
  /( _ )\ https://sites.google.com/site/changmw/
    ^ ^   https://github.com/changmw/changmw
          The game is afoot... Meow...

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#235500 — Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?

On Wed, 2 Sep 2026 22:59:44 +0800
"Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Cuneiform is pictographic in origin too; but it was developed by
> > scribes who mainly used wedge-shaped reeds to stamp on clay tablets,
> > rather than ink and pen to write on papyrus (or paint on walls,) so
> > the shapes were more abstract than hieroglyphs. IIRC, as it changed
> > over time the characters eventually became unrecognizable as even
> > abstract pictures unless you compare them against the earlier
> > forms.  
> 
> Maybe the clay tablets we found were just student work to master
> etching tools.

One does wonder, but I'd imagine that, much as medieval scribes used
wax for an erasable "scratchpad" medium, they probably did the same.
I'd have to read up on it, though.

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#235502 — Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?

On 9/2/26 08:29, John Ames wrote:
> On Wed, 2 Sep 2026 22:59:44 +0800
> "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>> Cuneiform is pictographic in origin too; but it was developed by
>>> scribes who mainly used wedge-shaped reeds to stamp on clay tablets,
>>> rather than ink and pen to write on papyrus (or paint on walls,) so
>>> the shapes were more abstract than hieroglyphs. IIRC, as it changed
>>> over time the characters eventually became unrecognizable as even
>>> abstract pictures unless you compare them against the earlier
>>> forms.
>>
>> Maybe the clay tablets we found were just student work to master
>> etching tools.
> 
> One does wonder, but I'd imagine that, much as medieval scribes used
> wax for an erasable "scratchpad" medium, they probably did the same.
> I'd have to read up on it, though.

The clay tablets could just be smoothed out and written over.

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#235504 — Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?

On Wed, 2 Sep 2026 12:36:10 -0700
Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> wrote:

> >> Maybe the clay tablets we found were just student work to master
> >> etching tools.  
> > 
> > One does wonder, but I'd imagine that, much as medieval scribes used
> > wax for an erasable "scratchpad" medium, they probably did the same.
> > I'd have to read up on it, though.  
> 
> The clay tablets could just be smoothed out and written over.

True enough, at least until they dried out/were fired.

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#235526 — Re: Origin Of Filename ... Babylon cuneiforms etched on bread? Exorcism?

On 9/3/2026 4:00 AM, John Ames wrote:
>>> One does wonder, but I'd imagine that, much as medieval scribes used
>>> wax for an erasable "scratchpad" medium, they probably did the same.
>>> I'd have to read up on it, though.
>>
>> The clay tablets could just be smoothed out and written over.
> 
> True enough, at least until they dried out/were fired.


Or maybe they were just etched on bread,
baked, then being eaten with water!?

Exorcism? :)

-- 

    @~@   Simplicity is Beauty! Remain silent! Drink, Blink, Stretch!
   / v \  May the Force and farces be with you! Live long and prosper!!
  /( _ )\ https://sites.google.com/site/changmw/
    ^ ^   https://github.com/changmw/changmw
          The game is afoot... Meow...

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#235505 — Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?

On Wed, 2 Sep 2026 12:36:10 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:

> The clay tablets could just be smoothed out and written over.

That’s what the ancient Cretans did.

But every now and then, a house or shed or some such structure with a
bunch of clay tablets in it would burn down, and the clay would get
baked in the fire, so that it couldn’t be erased and reused. And so,
samples of their writing survived down through the ages for us to
puzzle over.

Linear B (an old form of Greek) has been cracked, Linear A (even
older) is still a puzzle.

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#235507 — Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?

This AFC group seems more active than all the other Usenet groups I've
checked put together!  Multifarious discussions too -- I've skimmed this
thread a bit and found topics that interest me but have nothing to do with
computers, folklore or not.

Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> posted:
> On Wed, 2 Sep 2026 12:36:10 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
> > The clay tablets could just be smoothed out and written over. 
> That’s what the ancient Cretans did.

Explain?  Were those clay tablets used as scratch-pads?  Like short-term
Post-it notes?  I'd have assumed that most documents worth inscribing
in clay at all, would be worth sealing and preserving by firing the
clay.  Weren't clay and the kiln cheaper than the labor of a skilled scribe?


The Mari Letters are a set of 20,000+ clay tablets dating to the 18th century
BC, written mostly in Akkadian cuneiform (with some Hurrian and Sumerian).

The Amarna Letters are 382 clay tablets dating to the 13th century BC,
also written in Akkadian cuneiform.

These tablets are mostly, respectively, letters to the King of Mari
(Zimri-Lin or his predecessor) and letters to Pharaohs Amenhotep III and
Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten) of Egypt.

To go even further off-topic, afore-mentioned clay tablets have interesting
content. English translations of many of these 3800- and 3300-year-old
letters can be found online.  In the English transcriptions, proper names
are rendered phonetically rather than "translated" -- plus there is one
difficult-to-translate word found at both Mari and Amarna which isn't translated.
That word is "Apiru" or "Habiru."  This same word appears in other ancient
Near Eastern and Egyptian texts.

Most, but certainly not all, scholars believe 'Apiru' to be cognate with English
'Hebrew.'  Best here may be to peer no further down this rabbit-hole.

Cheers,
Gmail at jamesdowallen

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#235508 — Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?

On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 04:44:55 GMT, James Dow Allen wrote:

> Were those [Cretan] clay tablets used as scratch-pads?

They were used for short-term accounting/stock-control purposes. For
example, attached to the outside of a jar to indicate what was inside.
Or as manifests for business transactions. Nothing long-term
(obviously), and also nothing of a literary purpose.

And then there is the Phaistos Disc ...

> These tablets are mostly, respectively, letters to the King of Mari
> (Zimri-Lin or his predecessor) and letters to Pharaohs Amenhotep III and
> Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten) of Egypt.
>
> ... plus there is one difficult-to-translate word found at both Mari
> and Amarna which isn't translated. That word is "Apiru" or "Habiru."
> This same word appears in other ancient Near Eastern and Egyptian
> texts.
>
> Most, but certainly not all, scholars believe 'Apiru' to be cognate
> with English 'Hebrew.' Best here may be to peer no further down this
> rabbit-hole.

No rabbit-hole. I think it’s known from elsewhere that the Hebrews
were one of the subject tribes of the Egyptian Empire. Just one of
many.

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#235509 — Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?

Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> posted:

> On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 04:44:55 GMT, James Dow Allen wrote:
> 
> > These tablets are mostly, respectively, letters to the King of Mari
> > (Zimri-Lin or his predecessor) and letters to Pharaohs Amenhotep III and
> > Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten) of Egypt.
> >
> > ... plus there is one difficult-to-translate word found at both Mari
> > and Amarna which isn't translated. That word is "Apiru" or "Habiru."
> > This same word appears in other ancient Near Eastern and Egyptian
> > texts.
> >
> > Most, but certainly not all, scholars believe 'Apiru' to be cognate
> > with English 'Hebrew.' Best here may be to peer no further down this
> > rabbit-hole.
> 
> No rabbit-hole. I think it’s known from elsewhere that the Hebrews
> were one of the subject tribes of the Egyptian Empire. Just one of
> many.

No.  "Apiru" is widely thought to denote "mercenary soldier" or "bandit" or
"outsider."  Proposed etymologies include "From beyond the river" or
"(from the land of) dust."

Several of the Amarna letters appeal to Pharaoh for soldiers or archers
to defend from invading Apiru.  There is a very intriguing mention of
"hapiru" in the more ancient Mari letters.  Rather than wading through
my maze of notes and bookmarks, just now I asked the bot for a summary.
Urkesh was Mari's northernmost province, bordering on Hurrian lands.
Terru was its Governor.

Google's Gemini wrote:
>> In ARM 28, 46, Terru writes a letter to King Zimri-Lim of Mari explaining
>> that after being forced from power at Urkesh, he had to abandon his
>> house and leave to live as a displaced outsider (ḫapiru) in the town
>> of Šinaḫ. The Akkadian phrase "ana ḫapīrūtim attaṣi" reflects a shift
>> into a stateless, socio-political exile rather than an ethnic transition.

In Genesis, "Hebrew" appears almost exclusively as an exonym.  Among themselves
the enslaved "Hebrews" refer to themselves as "Children of Israel."

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#235510 — Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?

On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 05:29:39 GMT, James Dow Allen wrote:

> In Genesis, "Hebrew" appears almost exclusively as an exonym. Among
> themselves the enslaved "Hebrews" refer to themselves as "Children
> of Israel."

Enslaved by whom?

Not by the Egyptians.

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#235511 — Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?

Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> posted:

> On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 05:29:39 GMT, James Dow Allen wrote:
> 
> > In Genesis, "Hebrew" appears almost exclusively as an exonym. Among
> > themselves the enslaved "Hebrews" refer to themselves as "Children
> > of Israel."
> 
> Enslaved by whom?
> 
> Not by the Egyptians.

???
Egypt's OWN records show multiple enslavements of Habiru:

15th century BC - Tuthmosis III wins Battle of Megiddo, enslaving at least 3600 Habiru.
(He was co-regent with his mother Hatshepsut.)
14th century BC - Amenhotep III. Slaves at Avaris revolted during his reign.
(This King claims to have subdued "Yahweh (Yahu) in the land of the Shasu.")
1270 BC - Ramesses II the Great used Hapiru for hard labor
late 13th century BC - Merenptah writes "Israel is laid waste"
circa 1180 BC - Ramesses III; more Hapiru are enslaved

Thank you for you attention to this matter!  :-)

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#235512 — The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)

On 03/09/2026 1:29 PM, James Dow Allen wrote:
> 
> Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> posted:
> 
>> On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 04:44:55 GMT, James Dow Allen wrote:
>>
>>> These tablets are mostly, respectively, letters to the King of Mari
>>> (Zimri-Lin or his predecessor) and letters to Pharaohs Amenhotep III and
>>> Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten) of Egypt.
>>>
>>> ... plus there is one difficult-to-translate word found at both Mari
>>> and Amarna which isn't translated. That word is "Apiru" or "Habiru."
>>> This same word appears in other ancient Near Eastern and Egyptian
>>> texts.
>>>
>>> Most, but certainly not all, scholars believe 'Apiru' to be cognate
>>> with English 'Hebrew.' Best here may be to peer no further down this
>>> rabbit-hole.
>>
>> No rabbit-hole. I think it’s known from elsewhere that the Hebrews
>> were one of the subject tribes of the Egyptian Empire. Just one of
>> many.
> 
> No.  "Apiru" is widely thought to denote "mercenary soldier" or "bandit" or
> "outsider."  Proposed etymologies include "From beyond the river" or
> "(from the land of) dust."
> 

Actually (O^O) -- that's inline A.S.C.I.I. art for a guy pushing up his
glasses, so I've included alt.ascii-art in this discussion -- as I've
talked to a real live Jew, there is an ancient tradition among them-
selves that they were a warrior nation, so the etymology should be con-
sidered -- and maybe rejected -- in a new light.  That they are the
"Apiru" of Egypt.

Now, we have modern examples of such adaptions of /foreign terms/, as
the very own yearly /Viking Festival/ in Iceland.  Of course, that term
didn't get applied to the whole nation, but that can be considered an
accident of history, division between the other Nordic nations, and gen-
eral warfare between themselves; and of coures, having never been sub-
jects to the Bri'ish except for a very short duration during W.W.I.I.

Something maybe not even the Bri'ish of alt.folklore.computers nor alt.
english.usage may remember.

Anyway, we now have history thread to uncover.  Whether we're successful
or not remains to be seen, as there's ample evidence that Egyptologists
do not like it when people from other fields /butt in/ on their expert-
iese.  For a good -- and by Usenet standards -- ancient flamewar, see
Bernal's /Black Athena/ and the relevant counter arguments, all publish-
ed in physical book form; which may also appear an archive.org but I
didn't check this time.  Nowadays, real life Egyptologists agree that
the study of classics -- I believe they call themselves classicists wi-
thout any relation to C++ -- was indeed liberally literatted [sic] with
racism; and that without any race horses.

I personally admit little interested in reading the /Amarna Letters/ --
I believe that's the term Egyptologists use for the stash -- because I'm
quite frankly tired of Akhenaten and his ilk; side not for alt.usage.
english, is "ilk" considered a common word, or one of the /ChatGPT voca-
bulary/? -- so I will not be undertaking this endeavour [sic] myself.

> Several of the Amarna letters appeal to Pharaoh for soldiers or archers
> to defend from invading Apiru.  There is a very intriguing mention of
> "hapiru" in the more ancient Mari letters.  Rather than wading through
> my maze of notes and bookmarks, just now I asked the bot for a summary.
> Urkesh was Mari's northernmost province, bordering on Hurrian lands.
> Terru was its Governor.


Ah, there you confirm my terminology; thank you.

> 
> Google's Gemini wrote:
>>> In ARM 28, 46, Terru writes a letter to King Zimri-Lim of Mari explaining
>>> that after being forced from power at Urkesh, he had to abandon his
>>> house and leave to live as a displaced outsider (ḫapiru) in the town
>>> of Šinaḫ. The Akkadian phrase "ana ḫapīrūtim attaṣi" reflects a shift
>>> into a stateless, socio-political exile rather than an ethnic transition.
> 
> In Genesis, "Hebrew" appears almost exclusively as an exonym.  Among themselves
> the enslaved "Hebrews" refer to themselves as "Children of Israel."

That would indeed strengthen my hypothesis, but you're free to refute
me as I am not a Hebrew, nor a Jew.

In addition to the other groups, I've added alt.history.ancient-egypt.


Best wishes, and happy studies of the veritable Amarna letters, sans the
English translations!
-- 
Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/
I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via Easynews.com
https://bsky.app/profile/myrkraverk.bsky.social | for ( ;; ) _:;

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#235514 — Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)

On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 18:29:16 +0800
Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:

> side not for alt.usage.english, is "ilk" considered a common word, or
> one of the /ChatGPT vocabulary/?

"Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd say
if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not just some-
thing the chatbots dredge up.

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#235517 — Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)

John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> posted:

> On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 18:29:16 +0800
> Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
> 
> > side not for alt.usage.english, is "ilk" considered a common word, or
> > one of the /ChatGPT vocabulary/?
> 
> "Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd say
> if trying to put on a "literary affect." 

As used today by people trying to give an impression of literary culture, it 
usually just means "sort": "Donald Trump and politicians of that ilk" means 
"Donald Trump and similarly corrupt politicians". Historically (and today in 
Scottish clan names) it means "same": the Macduff of that ilk is the Macduff 
of Macduff.

It's definitely not just some-
> thing the chatbots dredge up.
> 


-- 
athel

Living in Marseilles for 39 years; mainly in England before that,
with long periods in Singapore, California, Chile and Canada 

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#235518 — Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)

On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 08:02:04 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 18:29:16 +0800
>Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
>
>> side not for alt.usage.english, is "ilk" considered a common word, or
>> one of the /ChatGPT vocabulary/?
>
>"Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd say
>if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not just some-
>thing the chatbots dredge up.


I disagree.  It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
some politician "of that ilk".  In this county (USA), political
discussions are very common.  

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#235519 — Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)

On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

> > "Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
> > say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
> > just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.  
> 
> I disagree.  It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
> some politician "of that ilk".  In this county (USA), political
> discussions are very common.  

Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street
vernacular, is all.

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#235523 — Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)

On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 11:34:09 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
>Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > "Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
>> > say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
>> > just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.  
>> 
>> I disagree.  It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
>> some politician "of that ilk".  In this county (USA), political
>> discussions are very common.  
>
>Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street
>vernacular, is all.

Depends.  If the "man on the street" is talking about sports, he's not
going to say that a player on some team is "of that ilk".  But, if
he's in a discussion about poltitics, "ilk" might be in his active
vocabulary.

Politics _are_ a daily subject of discussion.

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#235524 — Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew?

On 9/3/26 15:01, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 11:34:09 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
>> Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> "Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
>>>> say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
>>>> just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.
>>>
>>> I disagree.  It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
>>> some politician "of that ilk".  In this county (USA), political
>>> discussions are very common.
>>
>> Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street
>> vernacular, is all.
> 
> Depends.  If the "man on the street" is talking about sports, he's not
> going to say that a player on some team is "of that ilk".  But, if
> he's in a discussion about poltitics, "ilk" might be in his active
> vocabulary.
> 
> Politics _are_ a daily subject of discussion.

Of course, "ilk" is always pejorative (except in the Nash couplet).

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#235525 — Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)

On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 11:34:09 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
>Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > "Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
>> > say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
>> > just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.  
>> 
>> I disagree.  It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
>> some politician "of that ilk".  In this county (USA), political
>> discussions are very common.  
>
>Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street
>vernacular, is all.

Of course it's not common. 

Very few people have names the same as the place they live in, and
most of those that do and would refer to themselves as "of that Ilk"
live in Scotland.

I believe there is a place called Hayes in a place that used to be
called Middlesex, and perhaps if I lived there I might, in a jocular
manner, refer to myself as "Hayes of that Ilk" but even then the
occasions for using it would be few.




-- 
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

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#235527 — Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)

Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> posted:
> On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 11:34:09 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
> >Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> > "Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
> >> > say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
> >> > just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.  
> >> 
> >> I disagree.  It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
> >> some politician "of that ilk".  In this county (USA), political
> >> discussions are very common. 

In my experience. "of that ilk" in USA is almost always derogatory,
especially when applied to political alignment, e.g.
"racists, MAGA nuts, conspiracy theorists and others of that ilk."
 
> >
> >Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street
> >vernacular, is all.
> 
> Of course it's not common. 
> 
> Very few people have names the same as the place they live in, and
> most of those that do and would refer to themselves as "of that Ilk"
> live in Scotland.

The duplication of a surname in Great Britain, with or without the "of" is
often associated with a title: the present Prince of Wales' uncle is Charles
Spencer, Earl Spencer (though this may be abbreviated to Charles Earl Spencer?).

I'm probably wrong but when a surname is duplicated in Scotland it
often denotes that the person is the Chief of the same-named Clan (or,
if Master instead of Chief, the chief's oldest son).

Are the following  all essentially the same?
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] Chief of Clan Buchanan
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] Chief of Buchanan
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] of Buchanan
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] of That Ilk
The optional ordinal number ("9th" in this example) shows how many prior
Chiefs there were, and emphasizes that the person is a Chief.  But would
Chiefdom be implicit from the "of" anyway?

Instead of a Chief, the title-holder might be a Laird.
Of course "of That Ilk" is used only when the Clan or Lairdship has
the same name as the surname.
Sir William Fraser, 6th of Philorth may have been a de facto Chief of Fraser,
but wasn't titled such and thus couldn't abbreviate his suffix to "of that Ilk."

Apologies for all the errors!
(And what has this to do with the Amarna Letters?  :-)
James

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