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Re: Who Knew ?

From Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Newsgroups alt.folklore.computers
Subject Re: Who Knew ?
Date 2021-11-04 17:47 -1000
Organization Wheeler&Wheeler
Message-ID <874k8r462g.fsf@localhost> (permalink)
References (16 earlier) <20211103072641.1f36fd9ef1e2138951d0396c@eircom.net> <wIadnSSQpq-GrB78nZ2dnUU7-cfNnZ2d@earthlink.com> <slvpfk$ach$1@dont-email.me> <8cd50e88-aa50-4323-b22f-468831e5b616n@googlegroups.com> <slrnso8682.28j.Greymaus@dmaus.org>

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Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> writes:
> What did he think would happen after he banned scrap iron exports to
> Japan?.. The US navy should have been placed at high allert, but was
> not.

Story that (asst. SECTREAS) Harry Dexter White was also operating on
behalf of Stalin ... Stalin had sent White draft of ten demands to
include in US ultimatum hoping to provoke Japan into opening a war with
US ... Stalin was already dealing with 3/4ths of German military in the
west and was worried that Japan would open a second front in the
east. Hull Note
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_note
Harry Dexter White & Venona intercepts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Dexter_White#Venona_project
More Venona
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venona_project
https://www.nsa.gov/news-features/declassified-documents/venona/

Benn Stein in "The Battle of Bretton Woods" spends pages 55-58
discussing "Operation Snow".
https://www.amazon.com/Battle-Bretton-Woods-Relations-University-ebook/dp/B00B5ZQ72Y/
pg56/loc1065-66:

The Soviets had, according to Karpov, used White to provoke Japan to
attack the United States. The scheme even had a name: "Operation Snow,"
snow referring to White.

... snip ...

also: Another example of White acting as an agent of influence for the
Soviet Union was his obstruction of an authorized $200 million loan to
Nationalist China in 1943, which he had been officially instructed to
execute. ... contributing to Nationalist loosing China.

The Japanese Surrender in 1945 is Still Poorly Understood
https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/181372
General Dwight Eisenhower, in his memoirs, recalled a visit from
Secretary of War Henry Stimson in late July 1945: "I voiced to him my
grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already
defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and
secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world
opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no
longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives.  It was my belief
that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with
a minimum loss of 'face.'"  Eisenhower reiterated the point years later
in a Newsweek interview in 1963, saying that "the Japanese were ready to
surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."

... snip ...

Mythmaking and the Atomic Destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki
https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/08/06/mythmaking-and-the-atomic-destruction-of-hiroshima-and-nagasaki/
Reality: Hiroshima and Nagasaki were destroyed to prevent the Soviets
from making a contribution to the victory against Japan, which would
have forced Washington to allow Moscow to participate in the postwar
occupation and reconstruction of the country. It was also the intention
to intimidate the Soviet leadership and thus to wrest concessions from
it with respect to the postwar arrangements in Germany and Eastern
Europe. Finally, it was not the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki,
but the Soviet entry into the war against Japan, which caused Tokyo to
surrender.

... snip ...

Apparently Roosevelt didn't believe that US could defeat Japan without
Soviets and had agreement with Stalin where Soviet would come in against
Japan after the Germans had been defeated. Other reference "The Cover-Up
at Omaha Beach"
https://www.amazon.com/Cover-Up-Omaha-Beach-Rangers-Battery-ebook/dp/B00J75ISNU/

Soviets sent 1.5M troops into Manchuria and quickly defeated million
Japanese troops and were within three days of invading Japanese homeland
when the bombs were dropped.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Manchuria By comparison
US had 600k toops and battleships for Okinawa against 76k Japanese (and
US was months away from mounting a homeland invasion)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa

The War Was Won Before Hiroshima--And the Generals Who Dropped the Bomb
Knew It. Seventy years after the bombing, will Americans face the brutal
truth?
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-the-us-really-bombed-hiroshima/

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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Thread

Re: Who Knew ? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-11-01 13:52 -0400
  Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-01 21:40 +0000
    Re: Who Knew ? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-11-01 19:27 -0400
      Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-02 05:19 +0000
  Re: Who Knew ? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-11-01 17:38 -0700
  Re: Who Knew ? Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> - 2021-11-02 00:21 -0400
    Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-04 19:09 +0000
  Re: Who Knew ? 1p166 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-02 00:11 -0400
    Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-02 06:17 +0000
      Re: Who Knew ? Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2021-11-02 10:16 +0000
      Re: Who Knew ? 1p166 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-03 00:27 -0400
        Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-03 07:26 +0000
          Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-03 17:18 +0000
            Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-03 19:58 +0000
              Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-03 21:34 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-11-04 09:51 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2021-11-04 15:37 -0400
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 15:13 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-04 15:22 -0500
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 15:22 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 12:05 -0500
                Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-05 08:20 -1000
                Re: Who Knew ? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-11-04 10:02 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-04 17:26 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-04 15:25 -0500
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-04 19:10 -0400
                Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-04 23:27 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-04 21:43 -0400
                Re: Who Knew ? Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2021-11-05 08:53 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 11:38 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 13:30 -0400
                Re: Who Knew ? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-11-05 18:23 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 19:37 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Churchillian version John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-11-05 20:02 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 17:14 -0400
                Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-05 07:26 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 14:47 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-05 17:40 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 17:17 -0400
                Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-05 21:50 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 15:55 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-06 19:07 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-06 11:31 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-06 15:14 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-06 16:45 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 12:28 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2021-11-05 22:43 +0000
              Re: Who Knew ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-04 11:05 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-04 17:19 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-04 20:13 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-04 16:11 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-04 23:27 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 11:40 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-05 14:09 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 15:53 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-05 17:40 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 19:18 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-05 20:04 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-05 23:52 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-06 05:13 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 15:16 +0000
            Re: Who Knew ? "Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-n7j-this> - 2021-11-04 07:17 -0700
              Re: Who Knew ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-11-04 15:47 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2021-11-04 20:34 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-04 23:27 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? "Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-m46-this> - 2021-11-05 07:08 -0800
                Re: Who Knew ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-11-07 15:43 +0000
              Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-04 16:17 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-04 17:19 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-04 22:18 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2021-11-04 19:21 -0300
                Re: Who Knew ? Leonard Blaisdell <leoblaisdell@sbcglobal.net> - 2021-11-05 05:46 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2021-11-05 04:01 -0300
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 15:27 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-04 16:11 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-05 07:29 +0000
              Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-04 15:12 -0500
              Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-04 16:11 -0700
          Re: Who Knew ? 1p166 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-03 21:02 -0400
            Re: Who Knew ? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2021-11-04 00:01 -0500
              Re: Who Knew ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-04 11:09 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2021-11-04 13:49 +0000
              Re: Who Knew ? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-11-04 10:11 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-11-04 10:16 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-04 17:31 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-04 13:04 -0500
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 14:58 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-04 17:47 -1000
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 15:07 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 12:28 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 14:42 -0500
                Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-04 17:53 -1000
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 13:33 -0400
                Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 12:28 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-05 10:06 -1000
                Re: Who Knew ? Robert Swindells <rjs@fdy2.co.uk> - 2021-11-06 15:38 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 17:39 -0400
                Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 15:55 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 19:33 -0400
                Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-06 12:17 -0500
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-06 14:45 -0400
                Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-06 15:28 -0500
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-06 18:52 -0400
                Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-07 08:54 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-07 10:07 -0500
                Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-06 08:26 -1000
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 22:05 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 15:55 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 12:04 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-04 18:32 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-06 19:25 -0500
                Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-07 11:20 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-07 08:55 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-07 10:15 -0500
                Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-07 23:44 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-08 15:39 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2021-11-08 17:06 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? lawrenabae@abaluon.abaom (Lawrence Statton (NK1G)) - 2021-11-09 19:06 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-08 09:51 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-08 10:52 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-08 19:14 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-08 12:09 -1000
                Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-08 22:38 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-09 15:30 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-09 14:57 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-11 15:03 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-11 17:02 -1000
                Re: Alternate Who Knew ? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-11-08 22:22 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-08 18:07 -0500
                Re: military options, was Who Knew ? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-11-09 01:58 +0000
                Re: military options, was Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-08 23:17 -0500
                Re: military options, was Who Knew ? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-11-09 10:02 -0500
                Re: military options, was Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-08 22:51 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-08 22:35 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-09 09:09 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2021-11-14 18:45 +0100
                Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-14 12:39 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-15 00:43 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-16 08:58 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-11-16 16:57 -0500
                Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-17 10:54 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-11-17 14:16 -0500
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-14 14:32 -0500
            Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-04 05:01 +0000
              Re: Who Knew ? Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2021-11-04 13:48 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-11-04 15:46 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2021-11-04 15:26 -0400
              Re: Who Knew ? 1p166 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-04 23:51 -0400
                Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-05 07:37 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2021-11-05 08:54 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-11-05 13:49 +0000
            Re: Who Knew ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-04 11:08 +0000
        Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-03 17:18 +0000
      Re: Who Knew ? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2021-11-05 22:17 +0000
        Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 22:46 +0000
        Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 15:55 -0700

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