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Re: Who Knew ?

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Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> writes:
> Doubt it. Once the Germans had been stopped at Moscow, and the ordinary
> Russian found out what was to happen if Germany won the war, it was only
> a matter of time.
>
> Thinking today, there was a lot of very nasty things happening in
> Manchuria before the Russian Invasion and after it, which is not really
> known in The west.

Roosevelt kept telling the Pacific commanders (asking for more
resources) that Germany could win the war w/o Japan, but Japan couldn't
win the war w/o Germany ... and so Germany had to be 1st priority
... 3/4s of German military were fighting Soviets and D-DAY was strictly
side show for Germany.

Sand and Steel
https://www.amazon.com/Sand-Steel-Invasion-Liberation-France-ebook/dp/B07PPVG8HG/
pg19/loc992-98: However, OB West's remaining twenty-three Bodenstandige
(static position) divisions were either immobile or reserve infantry
formations, with low Kampfwert (combat effectiveness) ratings. They were
assessed as incapable of taking on offensive missions, and suitable only
for limited defence. For the latter's transportation needs, in
Rundstedt's domain there were 115,000 military horses on strength, a
stark reminder of how reliant on these creatures the German armed forces
were in 1944 - by contrast, the Allies would bring with them not a
single equine. 3 A year earlier, roughly twenty-five per cent of
officers stationed in France had fought in Russia; by 1944, this figure
had almost doubled to sixty per cent. This did not necessarily reflect a
reinforcement of the west, but a higher proportion of wounded and
convalescing leaders.
pg38/loc1415-18: It still comes as a surprise to many that the German
Army in Normandy was predominantly horse-drawn. When Second Lieutenant
Bob Sheehan of the US 60th Chemical Company (an outfit responsible for
smoke weapons) breasted a rise over the dunes of Omaha on 7 June, he saw
'a mind-shattering sight that convinced me the war was as good as
won. It was a dead horse. The poor animal was still attached to the
wagon it had been pulling.
pg39/loc1421-24: We have already noted that 115,000 of them were
assigned to OB West, with exactly 33,739 on the books of the Seventh
Army on 1 March 1944, and another ten thousand arriving by 1 June. 60
These numbers came as a shock to Rommel, who, of course, had commanded
the 7th Panzer Division in 1940 and the Afrika Korps in 1941-3, neither
of which used horses.
pg47/loc1600-1604: The stature of the Nazi war machine, forged in North
Africa, Italy and on the Eastern Front, was still feared in 1944, though
demonstrably hollowed out. It also helped Berlin that the Western
Allies, particularly the 21st Army Group, were also excessively
cautious, which played to the German inclination - despite their
convoluted command - of tactical speed of reaction. Finally, it also
suited many Allied commanders after the war to talk up the prowess of
their opponents, making the achievement of subduing them all the
greater.

... and part of horrific fighting on Omaha beach (from US army war
college, free PDF) ... high altitude, heavy strategic bombing almost
never hit the target (however, 2/3rds of total US WW2 spending went to
strategic bombing program)
https://ssi.armywarcollege.edu/2011/pubs/the-european-campaign-its-origins-and-conduct/
loc2582-85: The bomber preparation of Omaha Beach was a total failure,
and German defenses on Omaha Beach were intact as American troops came
ashore. At Utah Beach, the bombers were a little more effective because
the IXth Bomber Command was using B-26 medium bombers. Wisely, in
preparation for supporting the invasion, maintenance crews removed
Norden bombsights from the bombers and installed the more effective
low-level altitude sights.

.... Roosevelt also felt US needed Soviets to defeat Japan
... aggreement with Stalin that Soviets would come in against Japan
after Germany was defeated (i.e. 1.5million Soviets had quickly defeated
million Japenese in Manchuria and were within 3days of invading Japanese
homeland ... compared to Okinawa where 600k US and heavy shelling had to
deal with only 76k Japanese ... and months away from any homeland
invasion).

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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Re: Who Knew ? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-11-01 13:52 -0400
  Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-01 21:40 +0000
    Re: Who Knew ? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-11-01 19:27 -0400
      Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-02 05:19 +0000
  Re: Who Knew ? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-11-01 17:38 -0700
  Re: Who Knew ? Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> - 2021-11-02 00:21 -0400
    Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-04 19:09 +0000
  Re: Who Knew ? 1p166 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-02 00:11 -0400
    Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-02 06:17 +0000
      Re: Who Knew ? Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2021-11-02 10:16 +0000
      Re: Who Knew ? 1p166 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-03 00:27 -0400
        Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-03 07:26 +0000
          Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-03 17:18 +0000
            Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-03 19:58 +0000
              Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-03 21:34 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-11-04 09:51 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2021-11-04 15:37 -0400
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 15:13 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-04 15:22 -0500
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 15:22 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 12:05 -0500
                Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-05 08:20 -1000
                Re: Who Knew ? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-11-04 10:02 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-04 17:26 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-04 15:25 -0500
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-04 19:10 -0400
                Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-04 23:27 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-04 21:43 -0400
                Re: Who Knew ? Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2021-11-05 08:53 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 11:38 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 13:30 -0400
                Re: Who Knew ? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-11-05 18:23 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 19:37 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Churchillian version John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-11-05 20:02 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 17:14 -0400
                Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-05 07:26 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 14:47 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-05 17:40 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 17:17 -0400
                Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-05 21:50 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 15:55 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-06 19:07 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-06 11:31 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-06 15:14 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-06 16:45 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 12:28 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2021-11-05 22:43 +0000
              Re: Who Knew ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-04 11:05 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-04 17:19 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-04 20:13 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-04 16:11 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-04 23:27 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 11:40 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-05 14:09 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 15:53 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-05 17:40 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 19:18 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-05 20:04 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-05 23:52 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-06 05:13 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 15:16 +0000
            Re: Who Knew ? "Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-n7j-this> - 2021-11-04 07:17 -0700
              Re: Who Knew ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-11-04 15:47 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2021-11-04 20:34 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-04 23:27 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? "Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-m46-this> - 2021-11-05 07:08 -0800
                Re: Who Knew ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-11-07 15:43 +0000
              Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-04 16:17 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-04 17:19 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-04 22:18 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2021-11-04 19:21 -0300
                Re: Who Knew ? Leonard Blaisdell <leoblaisdell@sbcglobal.net> - 2021-11-05 05:46 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2021-11-05 04:01 -0300
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 15:27 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-04 16:11 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-05 07:29 +0000
              Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-04 15:12 -0500
              Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-04 16:11 -0700
          Re: Who Knew ? 1p166 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-03 21:02 -0400
            Re: Who Knew ? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2021-11-04 00:01 -0500
              Re: Who Knew ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-04 11:09 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2021-11-04 13:49 +0000
              Re: Who Knew ? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-11-04 10:11 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-11-04 10:16 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-04 17:31 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-04 13:04 -0500
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 14:58 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-04 17:47 -1000
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 15:07 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 12:28 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 14:42 -0500
                Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-04 17:53 -1000
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 13:33 -0400
                Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 12:28 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-05 10:06 -1000
                Re: Who Knew ? Robert Swindells <rjs@fdy2.co.uk> - 2021-11-06 15:38 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 17:39 -0400
                Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 15:55 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-05 19:33 -0400
                Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-06 12:17 -0500
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-06 14:45 -0400
                Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-06 15:28 -0500
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-06 18:52 -0400
                Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-07 08:54 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-07 10:07 -0500
                Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-06 08:26 -1000
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 22:05 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 15:55 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 12:04 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-04 18:32 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-06 19:25 -0500
                Re: Who Knew ? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-07 11:20 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-07 08:55 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-07 10:15 -0500
                Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-07 23:44 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-08 15:39 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2021-11-08 17:06 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? lawrenabae@abaluon.abaom (Lawrence Statton (NK1G)) - 2021-11-09 19:06 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-08 09:51 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-08 10:52 -0700
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-08 19:14 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-08 12:09 -1000
                Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-08 22:38 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-09 15:30 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-09 14:57 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-11 15:03 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2021-11-11 17:02 -1000
                Re: Alternate Who Knew ? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-11-08 22:22 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-08 18:07 -0500
                Re: military options, was Who Knew ? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-11-09 01:58 +0000
                Re: military options, was Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-08 23:17 -0500
                Re: military options, was Who Knew ? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-11-09 10:02 -0500
                Re: military options, was Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-08 22:51 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-08 22:35 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-09 09:09 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2021-11-14 18:45 +0100
                Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-14 12:39 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> - 2021-11-15 00:43 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-16 08:58 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-11-16 16:57 -0500
                Re: Who Knew ? D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-11-17 10:54 -0600
                Re: Who Knew ? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-11-17 14:16 -0500
                Re: Who Knew ? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-11-14 14:32 -0500
            Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-04 05:01 +0000
              Re: Who Knew ? Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2021-11-04 13:48 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-11-04 15:46 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2021-11-04 15:26 -0400
              Re: Who Knew ? 1p166 <z24ba6.net> - 2021-11-04 23:51 -0400
                Re: Who Knew ? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-11-05 07:37 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2021-11-05 08:54 +0000
                Re: Who Knew ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-11-05 13:49 +0000
            Re: Who Knew ? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-11-04 11:08 +0000
        Re: Who Knew ? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-11-03 17:18 +0000
      Re: Who Knew ? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2021-11-05 22:17 +0000
        Re: Who Knew ? Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> - 2021-11-05 22:46 +0000
        Re: Who Knew ? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-11-05 15:55 -0700

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