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Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal

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  Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> - 2025-01-05 10:41 +0000
    Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-05 16:49 +0000
      Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> - 2025-01-05 21:54 +0000
        Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal wasbit <wasbit@nowhere.com> - 2025-01-06 09:35 +0000
          Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> - 2025-01-06 10:55 +0000
            Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-01-06 10:05 -0500
              Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> - 2025-01-06 17:49 +0000
                Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-01-06 17:32 -0500
                  Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-02-16 23:52 +1100
            Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-01-07 00:01 +0000
              Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> - 2025-01-07 08:45 +0000
                Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-01-07 13:57 +0000
        Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-01-06 15:14 +0000
    Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal "Alan K." <alan@invalid.com> - 2025-01-05 15:42 -0500
      Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> - 2025-01-05 21:57 +0000
        Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal "Alan K." <alan@invalid.com> - 2025-01-05 17:22 -0500
        Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2025-02-26 08:42 -0500
          Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> - 2025-02-26 14:45 +0000
    Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-01-05 22:10 +0100
    Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2025-01-06 01:46 +0200
      Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-01-05 21:44 -0500
      Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> - 2025-01-06 08:28 +0000
        Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2025-01-07 16:09 +0200
    Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-01-06 07:37 +0000
      Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> - 2025-01-06 08:33 +0000
        Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-01-06 18:33 +0000
          Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> - 2025-01-06 19:06 +0000
            Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-01-07 00:11 +0000
              Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> - 2025-01-07 08:55 +0000
                Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-01-07 14:00 +0000
                  Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> - 2025-01-07 15:16 +0000
                    Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-01-07 11:14 -0500
                      Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> - 2025-01-07 18:09 +0000
                        Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-01-07 15:08 -0500
                          Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-01-08 07:45 +0000
                    Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-01-08 08:25 +0000
                      Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-02-26 21:54 +1100
      Re: Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-01-07 16:20 +0000

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#181119 — Very OT: UK Post Office and the Horizon Scandal

In the words of Spike Milligan: "What are we going to do now?"

The SPMs (Sub Post Masters) have no trust in the PO (Post Office), and 
the replacement for Horizon - called NBIT - is not yet on the horizon! 
I think the PO is doomed.

So what do we need the PO for?

Postal Service.  This is what the GPO (General Post Office) did 
originally; collect and deliver mail. It was extended to become the 
citizen's contact point with government: paying pensions and benefits; 
providing basic banking; and handling passports, car tax, driving 
licenses, etc.  It received income for this so allowing small shops to 
operate sub post offices.  We still need the postal service for its USO 
(Universal Service Obligation) and RMG (Royal Mail Group) now (since 
separating from the PO in 2012) provides this and pays the PO (and other 
outlets) for selling postage stamps.

Banking.  This is the only other useful function provided by the PO, and 
it is only because traditional high street banks no longer operate 
anywhere other than large towns and cities.  All government payments to 
citizens are now paid into bank accounts so it would be sensible to 
force banks to meet a USO on opening hours and easy access for 100% of 
the population.

Everything else is done via the internet which suggests that internet 
connectivity should meet a USO.

What happens in other countries?  Is there an equivalent to the PO?  Is 
banking easily available to the whole population?  How does the average 
citizen interact with government?

-- 
Graham J

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#181122

Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:
> In the words of Spike Milligan: "What are we going to do now?"
> 
> The SPMs (Sub Post Masters) have no trust in the PO (Post Office), and 
> the replacement for Horizon - called NBIT - is not yet on the horizon! 
> I think the PO is doomed.
> 
> So what do we need the PO for?
[...]
> What happens in other countries?  Is there an equivalent to the PO?  Is 
> banking easily available to the whole population?  How does the average 
> citizen interact with government?

  In The Netherlands:
  
- The 'PO' is PostNL. Mostly small store-in-store 'offices'.
  Letter delivery is becoming more and more of a problem. Only 5 days a
  week, probably going to 4. Next day delivery, probably goes to in two
  day delivery.
  Has also a separate organization for parcel delivery. That is - like
  other parcel delivery services - booming.
  Bank part of the old PTT was split off many years ago. Is now ING,
  known world wide.

- Banking is mostly on-line banking, but can still be done by paper (our
  neighbour does that). Offices are nearly non-existant, at least not in
  the larger cities. Our main bank (Rabobank) has *one* office in our
  500K people city! :-(

- "government"? What's that!? But seriously, that's hard to answer. Most
  things can be done via websites. We have a digital ID (DigiD), which
  can be used to login on most government sites, but also other sites
  such as our health insurance companies.
  The plan is to create one central 'portal', from which you can be
  directed to all these sub organizations.
  And for some face-to-face stuff (passport, driving license, etc.) we
  have the town hall and its subsidiaries.

  Hope this helps.

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#181134

Frank Slootweg wrote:

[snip]
> 
> - "government"? What's that!? But seriously, that's hard to answer. Most
>    things can be done via websites. We have a digital ID (DigiD), which
>    can be used to login on most government sites, but also other sites
>    such as our health insurance companies.
>    The plan is to create one central 'portal', from which you can be
>    directed to all these sub organizations.
>    And for some face-to-face stuff (passport, driving license, etc.) we
>    have the town hall and its subsidiaries.
> 
>    Hope this helps.
> 

Thanks.

How widespread is reliable internet connectivity?

Is it fair to assume that everybody has a computer and can use it 
competently?

-- 
Graham J

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#181146

On 05/01/2025 21:54, Graham J wrote:
> Frank Slootweg wrote:
> 
> [snip]
>>
>> - "government"? What's that!? But seriously, that's hard to answer. Most
>>    things can be done via websites. We have a digital ID (DigiD), which
>>    can be used to login on most government sites, but also other sites
>>    such as our health insurance companies.
>>    The plan is to create one central 'portal', from which you can be
>>    directed to all these sub organizations.
>>    And for some face-to-face stuff (passport, driving license, etc.) we
>>    have the town hall and its subsidiaries.
>>
>>    Hope this helps.
>>
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> How widespread is reliable internet connectivity?
> 
> Is it fair to assume that everybody has a computer and can use it 
> competently?
> 

Internet connectivity has to be split into that provided by a land line, 
4G, 5G etc & satellite plus whatever other methods of connection there are.


-- 
Regards
wasbit

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#181147

wasbit wrote:

[snip]

>>
>> How widespread is reliable internet connectivity?
>>
>> Is it fair to assume that everybody has a computer and can use it 
>> competently?
>>
> 
> Internet connectivity has to be split into that provided by a land line, 
> 4G, 5G etc & satellite plus whatever other methods of connection there are.
> 

Only people who read this newsgroup understand the difference between 
these provisions.  The rest of the population hasn't a clue.

Their view is that if they can get "the internet" reliably wherever they 
are, it's good enough.  So for considerable areas in the UK (mainly 
rural) it certainly isn't adequate.  Which becomes a serious issue if 
the only way to communicate with officialdom is via the internet.


-- 
Graham J

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#181149

On Mon, 1/6/2025 5:55 AM, Graham J wrote:
> wasbit wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
>>>
>>> How widespread is reliable internet connectivity?
>>>
>>> Is it fair to assume that everybody has a computer and can use it competently?
>>>
>>
>> Internet connectivity has to be split into that provided by a land line, 4G, 5G etc & satellite plus whatever other methods of connection there are.
>>
> 
> Only people who read this newsgroup understand the difference between these provisions.  The rest of the population hasn't a clue.
> 
> Their view is that if they can get "the internet" reliably wherever they are, it's good enough.  So for considerable areas in the UK (mainly rural) it certainly isn't adequate.  Which becomes a serious issue if the only way to communicate with officialdom is via the internet.
> 

The government in one area of my country, put a program in place
to improve Internet service for extreme rural citizens. Some
of this was done with WISP setups (microwave link). One antenna
being able to service multiple recipients.

The plan was expected to take around ten years to burn up all the
available money for it. It does not "guarantee" that each woodland
creature gets the Internetz, but it does attempt to better connect
small pockets of people. The regular ISPs and major companies, have
rules about the density of people they are willing to cover with
service.

My sister is on a WISP, at latitude 56 degrees, and the WISP does
not come from a major ISP, it comes from "some guy in town who
set up his own ISP". That's how you do things in a small town :-)
I presume this means there is a fiber trunk running up the
highway, and that's how the trunking is done to make that possible.
Then WISP from a building in town, into the woods.

Citizens know they have to ask questions about their utilities.
Where is my water coming from ? Where is my electricity coming from ?
How will I heat my house ? And, what Internet sources are available ?
Those are utility questions, and most citizens have been challenged
(had someone ask them questions in the past), so they now know they
should have answers at the ready. Utility bills are sometimes
used to augment an identity check ("I have been living at this
address since 1956", shows man the bill for the telephone from 1956).
That's why you don't throw out all the paper bills.

   Paul

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#181152

Paul wrote:
> On Mon, 1/6/2025 5:55 AM, Graham J wrote:
>> wasbit wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>>
>>>> How widespread is reliable internet connectivity?
>>>>
>>>> Is it fair to assume that everybody has a computer and can use it competently?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Internet connectivity has to be split into that provided by a land line, 4G, 5G etc & satellite plus whatever other methods of connection there are.
>>>
>>
>> Only people who read this newsgroup understand the difference between these provisions.  The rest of the population hasn't a clue.
>>
>> Their view is that if they can get "the internet" reliably wherever they are, it's good enough.  So for considerable areas in the UK (mainly rural) it certainly isn't adequate.  Which becomes a serious issue if the only way to communicate with officialdom is via the internet.
>>
> 
> The government in one area of my country, put a program in place
> to improve Internet service for extreme rural citizens. Some
> of this was done with WISP setups (microwave link). One antenna
> being able to service multiple recipients.
> 
> The plan was expected to take around ten years to burn up all the
> available money for it. It does not "guarantee" that each woodland
> creature gets the Internetz, but it does attempt to better connect
> small pockets of people. The regular ISPs and major companies, have
> rules about the density of people they are willing to cover with
> service.
> 
> My sister is on a WISP, at latitude 56 degrees, and the WISP does
> not come from a major ISP, it comes from "some guy in town who
> set up his own ISP". That's how you do things in a small town :-)
> I presume this means there is a fiber trunk running up the
> highway, and that's how the trunking is done to make that possible.
> Then WISP from a building in town, into the woods.
> 
> Citizens know they have to ask questions about their utilities.
> Where is my water coming from ? Where is my electricity coming from ?
> How will I heat my house ? And, what Internet sources are available ?
> Those are utility questions, and most citizens have been challenged
> (had someone ask them questions in the past), so they now know they
> should have answers at the ready. Utility bills are sometimes
> used to augment an identity check ("I have been living at this
> address since 1956", shows man the bill for the telephone from 1956).
> That's why you don't throw out all the paper bills.


This is Canada - yes?

Is it fair to say that in rural areas citizens must make their own 
arrangements for water, electricity, and heating?  That there's no 
nationally provided service?  What about roads?

-- 
Graham J

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#181155

On Mon, 1/6/2025 12:49 PM, Graham J wrote:
> Paul wrote:
>> On Mon, 1/6/2025 5:55 AM, Graham J wrote:
>>> wasbit wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> How widespread is reliable internet connectivity?
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it fair to assume that everybody has a computer and can use it competently?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Internet connectivity has to be split into that provided by a land line, 4G, 5G etc & satellite plus whatever other methods of connection there are.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Only people who read this newsgroup understand the difference between these provisions.  The rest of the population hasn't a clue.
>>>
>>> Their view is that if they can get "the internet" reliably wherever they are, it's good enough.  So for considerable areas in the UK (mainly rural) it certainly isn't adequate.  Which becomes a serious issue if the only way to communicate with officialdom is via the internet.
>>>
>>
>> The government in one area of my country, put a program in place
>> to improve Internet service for extreme rural citizens. Some
>> of this was done with WISP setups (microwave link). One antenna
>> being able to service multiple recipients.
>>
>> The plan was expected to take around ten years to burn up all the
>> available money for it. It does not "guarantee" that each woodland
>> creature gets the Internetz, but it does attempt to better connect
>> small pockets of people. The regular ISPs and major companies, have
>> rules about the density of people they are willing to cover with
>> service.
>>
>> My sister is on a WISP, at latitude 56 degrees, and the WISP does
>> not come from a major ISP, it comes from "some guy in town who
>> set up his own ISP". That's how you do things in a small town :-)
>> I presume this means there is a fiber trunk running up the
>> highway, and that's how the trunking is done to make that possible.
>> Then WISP from a building in town, into the woods.
>>
>> Citizens know they have to ask questions about their utilities.
>> Where is my water coming from ? Where is my electricity coming from ?
>> How will I heat my house ? And, what Internet sources are available ?
>> Those are utility questions, and most citizens have been challenged
>> (had someone ask them questions in the past), so they now know they
>> should have answers at the ready. Utility bills are sometimes
>> used to augment an identity check ("I have been living at this
>> address since 1956", shows man the bill for the telephone from 1956).
>> That's why you don't throw out all the paper bills.
> 
> 
> This is Canada - yes?
> 
> Is it fair to say that in rural areas citizens must make their own arrangements for water, electricity, and heating?  That there's no nationally provided service?  What about roads?
> 

For some reason, there is a potable water certificate. If
this is rural and you are on well water, you get the well
water tested for heavy metals. There would also be a coliform
count, which is a proxy for bacterial activity. If E.Coli can be
detected, chances are other species are present and the
water is not safe.

I worked in a lab, a multidisciplinary lab, and one room had
the AAS machine and a guy who would run 30 heavy metal assays
a day. And another room, had Mike, our microbiology guy, and
he would streak plates. And maybe that was our E.coli. Mike was
a wee bit antisocial, so the opportunity to ask questions about
his lab were quite limited. You couldn't go in there. And
one day as it happened, for good reason.

I'm not sure you can live in a house that has no water at all.
It's the same for houses that are no longer habitable, and
a professional can attest to that fact.

My sister trucks her water in. The family owns their own water
truck. They don't even phone someone else to haul water for them.
This is necessary, because the well runs dry regularly,

But in a city at least, if you are registering a deed of sale,
chances are a potable water certificate is part of it. There is an
indication there, that the government does not want properties
to change hands, where the previous owner was dishonest about
the water status, and the new owner is left "high and dry".
It's a kind of public health issue, as someone living without
water, is likely to end up disease-ridden (cholera, dysentery,
and so on).

   Paul

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#182327

On 7/01/2025 9:32 am, Paul wrote:

<Snip>

> But in a city at least, if you are registering a deed of sale,
> chances are a potable water certificate is part of it. There is an
> indication there, that the government does not want properties
> to change hands, where the previous owner was dishonest about
> the water status, and the new owner is left "high and dry".
> It's a kind of public health issue, as someone living without
> water, is likely to end up disease-ridden (cholera, dysentery,
> and so on).
> 
>     Paul
> 
.... or be DEAD (anyway) before they got THAT sick!! l-P
-- 
Daniel70

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#181158

Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:
> wasbit wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
>>> 
>>> How widespread is reliable internet connectivity?
>>> 
>>> Is it fair to assume that everybody has a computer and can use it 
>>> competently?
>>> 
>> 
>> Internet connectivity has to be split into that provided by a land line, 
>> 4G, 5G etc & satellite plus whatever other methods of connection there are.
>> 
> 
> Only people who read this newsgroup understand the difference between 
> these provisions.  The rest of the population hasn't a clue.
> 
> Their view is that if they can get "the internet" reliably wherever they 
> are, it's good enough.  So for considerable areas in the UK (mainly 
> rural) it certainly isn't adequate.  Which becomes a serious issue if 
> the only way to communicate with officialdom is via the internet.

This is one area where the Scottish government has done well. Internet
access is good pretty much everywhere and there's a plan to get 100%
coverage. 

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#181161

Chris wrote:

[snip]

> This is one area where the Scottish government has done well. Internet
> access is good pretty much everywhere and there's a plan to get 100%
> coverage.

Yes, I'm told that 4G/5G coverage on Shetland is far better than rural 
Norfolk and Lincolnshire, where some businesses have paid the £100k plus 
for a dedicated fibre connection.


-- 
Graham J

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#181168

Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:
> Chris wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
>> This is one area where the Scottish government has done well. Internet
>> access is good pretty much everywhere and there's a plan to get 100%
>> coverage.
> 
> Yes, I'm told that 4G/5G coverage on Shetland is far better than rural 
> Norfolk and Lincolnshire, where some businesses have paid the £100k plus 
> for a dedicated fibre connection.

The ScotGov policy is for broadband coverage. 

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#181150

Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:
[...]

> How widespread is reliable internet connectivity?

  Very widespread. Very close to 100%, both in percentage of the
population as percentage of the size of the country. The Netherlands is
a very small country and any 'black spots' were eliminated a long time
ago.

> Is it fair to assume that everybody has a computer and can use it 
> competently?

  A smartphone or/and tablet or/and computer can be assumed for most of
the poulation, except for some of the 'elderly' who either struggle
with what they have or don't (yet) (want to) have anything. If such an
elderly person has no support from someone, it can be rather worrisome.

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#181132

On 1/5/25 05:41 AM, Graham J wrote:
> In the words of Spike Milligan: "What are we going to do now?"
> 
> The SPMs (Sub Post Masters) have no trust in the PO (Post Office), and the replacement for Horizon - 
> called NBIT - is not yet on the horizon! I think the PO is doomed.
> 
> So what do we need the PO for?
> 
> Postal Service.  This is what the GPO (General Post Office) did originally; collect and deliver 
> mail. It was extended to become the citizen's contact point with government: paying pensions and 
> benefits; providing basic banking; and handling passports, car tax, driving licenses, etc.  It 
> received income for this so allowing small shops to operate sub post offices.  We still need the 
> postal service for its USO (Universal Service Obligation) and RMG (Royal Mail Group) now (since 
> separating from the PO in 2012) provides this and pays the PO (and other outlets) for selling 
> postage stamps.
> 
> Banking.  This is the only other useful function provided by the PO, and it is only because 
> traditional high street banks no longer operate anywhere other than large towns and cities.  All 
> government payments to citizens are now paid into bank accounts so it would be sensible to force 
> banks to meet a USO on opening hours and easy access for 100% of the population.
> 
> Everything else is done via the internet which suggests that internet connectivity should meet a USO.
> 
> What happens in other countries?  Is there an equivalent to the PO?  Is banking easily available to 
> the whole population?  How does the average citizen interact with government?
> 
In the US (east coast), the Post Office USPS (US postal service) is mostly the mail.  They sell 
stamps, do passports, and rent mail boxes.

All the other things you describe are handled by other entities.
Anything vehicle is done by DMV (department of motor vehicles) probably run by the local states 
since they determine the proper rates for inspections, plates, licenses, and driver tests.  They are 
likely a part of the government Department of Transportation.

Banks are their own.  Quite a few have drive-thru since the US is heavy into cars.  Banks can be 
found in most any city (small and large), and in stores.  They are closing a few nearby, not sure if 
they are no longer viable due to internet banking.  I don't see the bank but maybe once a year.

As much as the PO does handle initial passports, they can be renewed via the internet if renewed 
before they expire.  And renewed via mail (not related to the PO).  We did our last revision that 
way, you have to find some business doing passport photos (dual mug shots at once).

Hope this helps.
-- 
Linux Mint 22, Cinnamon 6.2.9,  Kernel 6.8.0-51-generic
Thunderbird 128.5.2esr, Mozilla Firefox 133.0.3
Alan K.

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#181135

Alan K. wrote:

[snip]

> 
> As much as the PO does handle initial passports, they can be renewed via 
> the internet if renewed before they expire.  And renewed via mail (not 
> related to the PO).  We did our last revision that way, you have to find 
> some business doing passport photos (dual mug shots at once).
> 
> Hope this helps.

Thanks.

How widespread is reliable internet?  Particularly in rural areas?

What proportion of the population has a computer and is competent to use it?


-- 
Graham J

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#181136

On 1/5/25 04:57 PM, Graham J wrote:
> Alan K. wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
>>
>> As much as the PO does handle initial passports, they can be renewed via the internet if renewed 
>> before they expire.  And renewed via mail (not related to the PO).  We did our last revision that 
>> way, you have to find some business doing passport photos (dual mug shots at once).
>>
>> Hope this helps.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> How widespread is reliable internet?  Particularly in rural areas?
> 
> What proportion of the population has a computer and is competent to use it?
> 
> 
Internet is good in metro areas.  I'm sure rural is spotty.  When we had COVID, the schools had 
issues with getting on-line schooling working. 1) holes in internet coverage, 2) lack of computers 
for children, 3) the software/net to make the whole thing work.   Let alone getting the children to 
use them.

After a while they got it working.  Don't know the stats, but I'm pessimistic and think less than 
100%.  The low income parts of every city in the US has families that have issues feeding the family 
let alone buying a laptop or internet.  Donations were made by a lot of large companies, especially 
the local companies.

-- 
Linux Mint 22, Cinnamon 6.2.9,  Kernel 6.8.0-51-generic
Thunderbird 128.5.2esr, Mozilla Firefox 133.0.3
Alan K.

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#182568

On 1/5/2025 4:57 PM, Graham J wrote:
> 
> How widespread is reliable internet?  Particularly in rural areas?
> 
> What proportion of the population has a computer and is competent to use 
> it?
> 
     That's a big difference between the US and Europe.
There are lots of areas in the US (maybe 30%) without
cellphone service. Yet urban youngsters have never known
another way to live. Phone companies are simply unwilling
to set up towers in sparsely populated areas. In short, we
have a lot of woods and farmland.

   Recently, Elon Musk has been selling satellite Internet.
There's also a new development to get cell access
everywhere through Musk's satellites.

    How many people anywhere are competent with computers?
1/3? Less? Young people are increasingly competent with
services on cellphones and games on computers. Is that
competence? Is it competence that young people know
how to cast Spotify to a stereo system and listen to music
non-stop? Or is that the 21st century pacifier?  ... I don't
think computers are actually necessary for most people, but
cellphones are increasingly demanded, even for 2FA to get
one's email. The Evangelicals would be crying "Mark of the
Beast!" if they weren't all busy getting Bible quotes on their
cellphones.

   Banks are usually not hard to reach in the US. They can
legally loanshark and are required to hold only a small
fraction of the money they loan. As a result, it's not worth it
to them to pay interest on accounts. They can legally lend
money they don't have, then distribute charge cards charging
up to 30% interest. They've also managed to sucker the public
into paying up to 1% of their retirement savings for the service
of managing their investments -- whether the investments
gain or lose! My bank wanted to set me up with such a deal.
I told them I can't afford risks. They suggested that they could
get me into t-bills. They didn't tell me that in a few minutes
online I could have an account to buy t-bills myself. They
were going to take a cut! (T-bills are government loans. Rich
people loan money to the gov't, which serves as a guaranteed
way for the rich to make money even when the stock market
is bad, because the government borrows money as a standard
practice. Banks can print money out of thin air, but the Feds have
to borrow it. On the bright side, anyone can get in on this scam.)

   There's a great video on youtube of a 12-year-old explaining
the overall scam of banking. I think she's in Canada:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ae7h8FioX0

   Currently there's a record number of people defaulting on credit
card payments in the US. It's a kind of silent Great Depression,
with people accumulating debt from the loanshark industry, typically
paying at least 24% interest. No one even talks about fixing the
problem.

   I don't know many people who actually use banks in the sense
of visiting a building. A lot of people use online banking. Many
use services like Venmo. Many use debit cards and charge
cards for virtually everything and have automatic withdrawal
for bills. There's an epidemic of irrational cash fear in the US.
I go to ATMs and use almost exclusively cash, but I'm in the
minority.

     When I shop at Whole Foods, often the clerk will turn
away when it comes time to pay. They figure they have 45 seconds
to diddle their cellphone while I use my debit card. Then they're
surprised to turn around and see me holding cash.

  The Post Office here is still fairly strong. Every identified area
of a city or town that has its own location code or zip code
has an actual building where mail is handled. That mayy also be
connected with having large rural areas.

     I can easily walk
to my bank and to my P.O. I'm in a suburb, not a city downtown.
But I expect people in rural areas may have to drive great
distances. I have a brother in NH, for example, with no
cell coverage, only recently got good Internet, probably drives
25 miles to a bank. But that's common. Nearly everyone has a car.
And people cooperate. The rural way of life is very different from
urban/suburban. If a tree falls across the road in a storm, they
don't complain about the utility companies. In short order, all
the local men are there with their chain saws.

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#182570

Newyana2 wrote:
> On 1/5/2025 4:57 PM, Graham J wrote:
>>
>> How widespread is reliable internet?  Particularly in rural areas?
>>
>> What proportion of the population has a computer and is competent to 
>> use it?
>>
>      That's a big difference between the US and Europe.


[snip]


Interesting description from the USA, thanks.




-- 
Graham J

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#181133

On 2025-01-05 11:41, Graham J wrote:
> In the words of Spike Milligan: "What are we going to do now?"
> 
> The SPMs (Sub Post Masters) have no trust in the PO (Post Office), and 
> the replacement for Horizon - called NBIT - is not yet on the horizon! I 
> think the PO is doomed.
> 
> So what do we need the PO for?
> 
> Postal Service.  This is what the GPO (General Post Office) did 
> originally; collect and deliver mail. It was extended to become the 
> citizen's contact point with government: paying pensions and benefits; 
> providing basic banking; and handling passports, car tax, driving 
> licenses, etc.  It received income for this so allowing small shops to 
> operate sub post offices.  We still need the postal service for its USO 
> (Universal Service Obligation) and RMG (Royal Mail Group) now (since 
> separating from the PO in 2012) provides this and pays the PO (and other 
> outlets) for selling postage stamps.
> 
> Banking.  This is the only other useful function provided by the PO, and 
> it is only because traditional high street banks no longer operate 
> anywhere other than large towns and cities.  All government payments to 
> citizens are now paid into bank accounts so it would be sensible to 
> force banks to meet a USO on opening hours and easy access for 100% of 
> the population.
> 
> Everything else is done via the internet which suggests that internet 
> connectivity should meet a USO.
> 
> What happens in other countries?  Is there an equivalent to the PO?  Is 
> banking easily available to the whole population?  How does the average 
> citizen interact with government?

Spain.

We have the Post Office, which handles mail, letters and packages. Does 
not handle banking (they had a bank window maybe two decades ago), but 
there is talk of handling some banking in small villages where banks 
refuse to maintain an office and leave the people stranded. I don't know 
what is the current status of this.

Passports are handled solely by the police, same as ID cards. Taxes, by 
agencies of the respective governments (and internet). Driving license, 
by the traffic department; but you can renew the license at some clinics 
and they handle everything. Similarly for hunting licenses.

Ah, if you can't manage to pay a tax on internet, some of them can be 
paid on banks.

Some official forms to be filled are sold by the official tobacco shops. 
They are an official concession, so they fill that role. They also sell 
stamps.


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#181137

On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 10:41:17 +0000, Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk>
wrote:

>What happens in other countries?  Is there an equivalent to the PO?  Is 
>banking easily available to the whole population?  How does the average 
>citizen interact with government?

In South Africa the post office was similar to the UK until about
1987, when under the influence of the then fashionable Thatcherist
neoliberalism it stopped being a government department under the
Minister of Posts and Telecommunications and the Postmaster General,
and was run like a business, and became a State-Owned Enterprise
(SOE). Or, rather, it was split into two -- the Post Office and
Telkom. 

That was a death senrtence for the Post Office, as its
telecommunications branch had been far more lucrative than its postal
business, and it has gone downhill everf since, and is now bankrupt
and almost defunct. There are several provately-owned courier
services, which are, howeever excessively expensive, and virtually
useless for people living in remotrer rural areas or even in many
small towns far from major centres,

Nearly all the post offices in our immediate vicinity have closed. We
used to rent a post office box, but gave it up last year, because it
just wasn't worth it. 


-- 
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

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