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Groups > alt.comp.os.windows-10 > #186753 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Jai Hind <jai.hind@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2025-08-14 00:54 +0000 |
| Last post | 2025-08-17 01:03 +0800 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 86 — 20 participants |
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Browse at the speed of thought Jai Hind <jai.hind@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 00:54 +0000
Re: Browse at the speed of thought "Alan K." <alan@invalid.com> - 2025-08-13 21:46 -0400
Re: Browse at the speed of thought The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 20:21 -0700
Re: Browse at the speed of thought "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-08-14 12:53 +0200
Re: Browse at the speed of thought Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-08-14 21:48 +1000
Re: Browse at the speed of thought The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 15:09 -0700
Re: Browse at the speed of thought Mike Easter <MikeE@ster.invalid> - 2025-08-14 15:25 -0700
Re: Browse at the speed of thought The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 19:43 -0700
Re: Browse at the speed of thought Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-08-15 21:53 +1000
Re: Browse at the speed of thought The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> - 2025-08-15 23:22 -0700
Re: Browse at the speed of thought "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-08-16 16:02 +0100
Re: Browse at the speed of thought Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-08-16 18:44 -0400
mostly OT (includes passing reference to AI): long wave (was: Re: Browse at the speed of thought) "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-08-17 14:41 +0100
Re: Totally OT (includes passing reference to AI): long wave sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> - 2025-08-17 12:42 -0500
Re: Totally OT (includes passing reference to AI): long wave Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2025-08-17 18:50 +0100
Re: Totally OT (includes passing reference to AI): long wave sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> - 2025-08-17 13:23 -0500
Re: Totally OT (includes passing reference to AI): long wave Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2025-08-17 19:44 +0100
Re: Totally OT (includes passing reference to AI): long wave sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> - 2025-08-17 14:53 -0500
Re: Totally OT (includes passing reference to AI): long wave Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-08-18 16:50 +0000
Re: Totally OT (includes passing reference to AI): long wave sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> - 2025-08-18 13:37 -0500
Re: Totally OT (includes passing reference to AI): long wave Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-08-17 16:23 -0400
Re: Totally OT (includes passing reference to AI): long wave Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2025-08-18 07:01 +0100
Re: Totally OT (includes passing reference to AI): long wave sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> - 2025-08-18 09:08 -0500
Re: Totally OT (includes passing reference to AI): long wave The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> - 2025-11-24 18:09 -0800
Re: Totally OT (includes passing reference to AI): long wave "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-08-18 13:18 +0100
Re: Browse at the speed of thought The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> - 2025-08-16 17:24 -0700
Re: Browse at the speed of thought Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2025-08-17 08:55 +0100
Re: Browse at the speed of thought Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-08-17 06:48 -0400
Re: Browse at the speed of thought Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2025-08-17 12:00 +0100
Re: Browse at the speed of thought "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-08-17 15:16 +0100
Re: Browse at the speed of thought Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-08-17 22:11 +1000
Re: Browse at the speed of thought "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-08-17 15:07 +0100
Re: Browse at the speed of thought Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-08-18 21:12 +1000
Re: Browse at the speed of thought AI User Here <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-17 00:58 +0000
Re: Browse at the speed of thought The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> - 2025-08-16 21:07 -0700
Re: Browse at the speed of thought Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-08-17 22:23 +1000
Re: Browse at the speed of thought Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-08-17 22:57 +1000
Re: Browse at the speed of thought "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-08-17 15:49 +0100
Re: Browse at the speed of thought Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-08-18 21:30 +1000
Re: Browse at the speed of thought "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-08-18 12:54 +0100
Re: Browse at the speed of thought Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-08-18 23:00 +1000
Re: Browse at the speed of thought "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-08-17 15:37 +0100
Re: Browse at the speed of thought Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-08-18 21:41 +1000
Re: Browse at the speed of thought "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-08-18 13:02 +0100
Re: Browse at the speed of thought Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2025-08-18 13:04 +0100
Re: Browse at the speed of thought "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-08-18 13:22 +0100
Re: Browse at the speed of thought Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-08-18 23:10 +1000
OT: driving licences (was: Re: Browse at the speed of thought) "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-08-18 14:34 +0100
Re: OT: driving licences Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> - 2025-08-19 00:38 +1000
Re: OT: driving licences Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> - 2025-08-18 16:55 +0100
Re: OT: driving licences The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> - 2025-10-06 11:58 -0700
Re: OT: driving licences Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> - 2025-10-07 22:10 +1100
Re: OT: driving licences "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-07 14:36 +0200
Re: OT: driving licences Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> - 2025-10-08 00:00 +1100
Re: OT: driving licences Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-10-07 16:15 +0000
Re: OT: driving licences "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-08 11:14 +0200
Re: OT: driving licences Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> - 2025-10-08 22:16 +1100
Re: OT: driving licences "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-11-25 08:36 +0100
Re: OT: driving licences Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> - 2025-11-25 21:56 +1100
Re: OT: driving licences "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-11-25 12:41 +0100
Re: OT: driving licences Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> - 2025-11-25 23:04 +1100
Re: OT: driving licences "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-11-25 18:58 +0100
Re: OT: driving licences "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-11-25 13:49 +0000
Re: OT: driving licences Tim Slattery <TimSlattery@utexas.edu> - 2025-11-25 10:47 -0500
Re: OT: driving licences "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-11-25 17:40 +0000
Re: OT: driving licences Jim the Geordie <jim@geordieland.com> - 2025-11-25 13:03 +0000
Re: OT: driving licences Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-11-25 08:22 -0500
Re: OT: driving licences Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> - 2025-11-26 20:51 +1100
Re: OT: driving licences Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-11-26 06:35 -0500
Re: OT: driving licences Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> - 2025-11-26 23:14 +1100
Re: OT: driving licences Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-11-26 13:37 -0500
Re: OT: driving licences Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> - 2025-10-08 17:03 +0100
Re: OT: driving licences Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-10-08 17:07 +0000
Re: OT: driving licences "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-11-25 08:42 +0100
Re: OT: driving licences The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> - 2025-10-06 12:03 -0700
Re: Browse at the speed of thought Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-08-17 03:42 -0400
Re: Browse at the speed of thought sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> - 2025-08-17 12:28 -0500
Re: Browse at the speed of thought Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-08-17 16:54 -0400
Re: Browse at the speed of thought sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> - 2025-08-20 19:32 -0500
Re: Browse at the speed of thought Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-08-21 03:06 -0400
Re: Browse at the speed of thought The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> - 2025-11-24 17:12 -0800
Re: Browse at the speed of thought sticks <wolverine01@charter.net> - 2025-08-13 22:48 -0500
Re: Browse at the speed of thought "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 23:26 +0800
Re: Browse at the speed of thought Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-08-14 18:53 -0400
Re: Browse at the speed of thought "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2025-08-15 20:31 +0800
Re: Browse at the speed of thought "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2025-08-17 01:03 +0800
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| From | Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-08-18 23:00 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <107v85k$32fgj$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #186827 |
On 18/08/2025 9:54 pm, J. P. Gilliver wrote: > On 2025/8/18 12:30:55, Daniel70 wrote: >> On 18/08/2025 12:49 am, J. P. Gilliver wrote: > > [] > >>> I do remember slide rules, though I don't _think_ I had one. One thing >>> they _did_ teach you was the importance of gross magnitude: They would >>> give you an answer like maybe 3.54, but you had to know whether that >>> meant 354, 3,450, 34,500, or whatever. >> >> If the logarithmic answer was '3.54', the .54 bit told you what the >> numbers in the answer would and the '3' told you how many positions >> right you moved the decimal point >> >> The .54 bit equals 3.467368504 (base 10 approx) and moving the Decimal >> point three places to the right gives the answer of 3,467.368504 or >> there abouts. > > Ah, we're talking at cross purposes. I'm talking about using a slide > rule to multiply, or divide, two two- or three-digit numbers, and > getting a two- or three-digit number as the answer: my point was that if > you use a slide rule at all you use two or three significant figures, so > throw away any magnitude information - so _had_ to be used to knowing > roughly what the magnitude of the answer would be. A calculator > intrinsically has a decimal point, so you tend _not_ to check the gross > magnitude. > Ah. Right. -- Daniel70
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| From | "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-08-17 15:37 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <107spfa$1n0cg$15@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #186794 |
On 2025/8/17 5:7:56, The Real Bev wrote: [] > I use perplexity every day. I'm not afraid of it. BUT I see how kids > are already dumbing down and limiting themselves. AI makes it easier. > My daughter says her kids got a worse education than she did and that > she got a worse one than I did. Humans are lazy and always want to make > stuff easier. It's known as progress. How do you make somebody do > something harder than it has to be just because it's good for them? that last sentence has gone straight into my quotes file (with attribution). [By no means the only "Real Bev" entry therein!] >> Do you remember what people were saying about calculators and adding >> machines? Now, calculators are part of the school curriculum and adding >> machines have been replaced by spreadsheet packages. > > BUT what happens when the power goes off? Maybe for only a few hours, > but suddenly I've lost pretty much everything except maybe watering the > lawn or doing other yard work. One switch and we're back 150 years. Indeed! Even just the loss of internet connection and most of my life is on pause, let alone power (or water; one's first thought is one can manage on bottled water - which our water companies supply for any outage lasting more than a fairly short time; but, that isn't enough for flushing). >> When the Coronavirus vaccine became compulsory, people started blaming >> Bill Gates. This is because he invested billions in producing these >> vaccines. He has said many times that he wants to give away his wealth >> in his lifetime. Everyone knows he doesn't work any more. All he does is >> spend his money, give talks and donate to charities. > > Gates can spend his money however he wants, he's still somebody whose > wife dumped him when she found out about Epstein. I don't know (or want to) his Epstein connections. On the whole, I've always rather liked him.> > My point is that we should know how to do as much stuff by ourselves as > possible, even if we never have to do it. I used to fix cars, but not Yes, that's more or less mine too. If nothing else, it helps when negotiating with (e. g. car) mechanics, if you know what they're going to do, even if you wouldn't do it (because they have the tools and facilities you don't, or just - increasingly as one gets older! - don't want to. But could). > the 88 Cad (inherited) which tried to kill me repeatedly by flooring the > accelerator all by itself, and not the 2013 Corolla which has shown no Ah yes, if you're used to an automatic, that could indeed be frightening. (The majority of cars in UK are still manual, and I think that's preferred, though it's changing - the other day the news said 26% of new tests are in automatics. [Here, if you pass your test in an automatic, you're not licenced to drive a manual, though the other way round is fine.]) > problems at all so far. But if something goes wrong with the Corolla it > better be the disk brakes, because I'm pretty sure I can deal with those. > If it's replacing the caliper pads, same here; if the discs themselves are damaged (because a piece of gravel got trapped, or I left it too long to change the pads and their holder rubbed) and need replacing, I'm less sure. Though I admit these days I'd almost certainly pay someone else to actually change the pads - but as you say, I know what's involved. (I currently drive a Skoda - which is in practice a cheap version of a Volkswagen these days.) -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf tried calling the tinnitus helpline - no answer, just kept ringing
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| From | Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-08-18 21:41 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <107v3h3$31ab8$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #186808 |
On 18/08/2025 12:37 am, J. P. Gilliver wrote: > On 2025/8/17 5:7:56, The Real Bev wrote: <Snip> > Ah yes, if you're used to an automatic, that could indeed be > frightening. (The majority of cars in UK are still manual, and I think > that's preferred, though it's changing - the other day the news said 26% > of new tests are in automatics. [Here, if you pass your test in an > automatic, you're not licenced to drive a manual, though the other way > round is fine.]) In Australia, it used to be if you got your Drivers Licence in an Automatic car, you were licenced to drive an Automatic ONLY. You were not licenced to drive a Manual car until you had a number of years driving experience. Your initial (Probationary) Licence was for three years (I think), so it may have been once you got your Full Licence you were allowed to drive a Manual. -- Daniel70
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| From | "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-08-18 13:02 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <107v4p3$30tiv$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #186826 |
On 2025/8/18 12:41:31, Daniel70 wrote: > On 18/08/2025 12:37 am, J. P. Gilliver wrote: >> On 2025/8/17 5:7:56, The Real Bev wrote: > > <Snip> > >> Ah yes, if you're used to an automatic, that could indeed be >> frightening. (The majority of cars in UK are still manual, and I think >> that's preferred, though it's changing - the other day the news said 26% >> of new tests are in automatics. [Here, if you pass your test in an >> automatic, you're not licenced to drive a manual, though the other way >> round is fine.]) > > In Australia, it used to be if you got your Drivers Licence in an > Automatic car, you were licenced to drive an Automatic ONLY. That's how it is here (UK). If you pass on a manual (US: stick shift), you're allowed to drive manuals _and_ automatics.> > You were not licenced to drive a Manual car until you had a number of > years driving experience. Your initial (Probationary) Licence was for > three years (I think), so it may have been once you got your Full > Licence you were allowed to drive a Manual. I'm pretty sure we here have no such timeout - if you passed on an automatic, you can only drive automatics - period, as the Americans would say. I don't think we have anything called "initial" or "probationary" (though we frequently get suggestions that new drivers _ought_ to be restricted in some way for a while, such as limits on passengers below a certain age - but nothing's happened there yet). We do have "privisional", which is for learning, but you have to have someone with a full licence in the car with you. That lasts a year I think - though I think can be renewed, how many times I'm not sure. (Maximum three years total maybe?) -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf There is no honour to be had in not knowing a thing that can be known - Danny Baker
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| From | Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-08-18 13:04 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <mggj72F99buU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #186828 |
J. P. Gilliver wrote: > Daniel70 wrote: > >> In Australia, it used to be if you got your Drivers Licence in an >> Automatic car, you were licenced to drive an Automatic ONLY. > > That's how it is here (UK). If you pass on a manual (US: stick shift), > you're allowed to drive manuals _and_ automatics. Learning in an electric vehicle doesn't allow you to drive a manual car ...
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| From | "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-08-18 13:22 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <107v5ue$30tiv$4@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #186829 |
On 2025/8/18 13:4:49, Andy Burns wrote: > J. P. Gilliver wrote: > >> Daniel70 wrote: >> >>> In Australia, it used to be if you got your Drivers Licence in an >>> Automatic car, you were licenced to drive an Automatic ONLY. >> >> That's how it is here (UK). If you pass on a manual (US: stick shift), >> you're allowed to drive manuals _and_ automatics. > Learning in an electric vehicle doesn't allow you to drive a manual car ... > > Hmm, I'd not thought of that! But it makes sense, as electrics are in effect automatic (don't have a gear lever). -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf There is no honour to be had in not knowing a thing that can be known - Danny Baker
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| From | Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-08-18 23:10 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <107v8no$32ok3$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #186828 |
On 18/08/2025 10:02 pm, J. P. Gilliver wrote: > On 2025/8/18 12:41:31, Daniel70 wrote: >> On 18/08/2025 12:37 am, J. P. Gilliver wrote: >>> On 2025/8/17 5:7:56, The Real Bev wrote: >> >> <Snip> >> >>> Ah yes, if you're used to an automatic, that could indeed be >>> frightening. (The majority of cars in UK are still manual, and I think >>> that's preferred, though it's changing - the other day the news said 26% >>> of new tests are in automatics. [Here, if you pass your test in an >>> automatic, you're not licenced to drive a manual, though the other way >>> round is fine.]) >> >> In Australia, it used to be if you got your Drivers Licence in an >> Automatic car, you were licenced to drive an Automatic ONLY. > > That's how it is here (UK). If you pass on a manual (US: stick shift), > you're allowed to drive manuals _and_ automatics.> >> You were not licenced to drive a Manual car until you had a number of >> years driving experience. Your initial (Probationary) Licence was for >> three years (I think), so it may have been once you got your Full >> Licence you were allowed to drive a Manual. > I'm pretty sure we here have no such timeout - if you passed on an > automatic, you can only drive automatics - period, as the Americans > would say. I don't think we have anything called "initial" or > "probationary" (though we frequently get suggestions that new drivers > _ought_ to be restricted in some way for a while, such as limits on > passengers below a certain age - but nothing's happened there yet). We > do have "privisional", which is for learning, but you have to have > someone with a full licence in the car with you. "Learners" 'L' Plates displayed. One learner and one fully qualified driver *ONLY* in the car ... no passengers. > That lasts a year I > think - though I think can be renewed, how many times I'm not sure. > (Maximum three years total maybe?) > "Probationary" 'P' plates displayed. Zero Alcohol .... and I think there might be a passenger number limit as well. -- Daniel70
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| From | "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-08-18 14:34 +0100 |
| Subject | OT: driving licences (was: Re: Browse at the speed of thought) |
| Message-ID | <107va4i$32vn8$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #186833 |
On 2025/8/18 14:10:23, Daniel70 wrote: > On 18/08/2025 10:02 pm, J. P. Gilliver wrote: >> On 2025/8/18 12:41:31, Daniel70 wrote: [] >>> In Australia, it used to be if you got your Drivers Licence in an >>> Automatic car, you were licenced to drive an Automatic ONLY. >> >> That's how it is here (UK). If you pass on a manual (US: stick shift), >> you're allowed to drive manuals _and_ automatics.> >>> You were not licenced to drive a Manual car until you had a number of >>> years driving experience. Your initial (Probationary) Licence was for >>> three years (I think), so it may have been once you got your Full >>> Licence you were allowed to drive a Manual. >> I'm pretty sure we here have no such timeout - if you passed on an >> automatic, you can only drive automatics - period, as the Americans >> would say. I don't think we have anything called "initial" or >> "probationary" (though we frequently get suggestions that new drivers >> _ought_ to be restricted in some way for a while, such as limits on >> passengers below a certain age - but nothing's happened there yet). We >> do have "privisional", which is for learning, but you have to have >> someone with a full licence in the car with you. > > "Learners" 'L' Plates displayed. One learner and one fully qualified > driver *ONLY* in the car ... no passengers. > >> That lasts a year I >> think - though I think can be renewed, how many times I'm not sure. >> (Maximum three years total maybe?) >> > "Probationary" 'P' plates displayed. Zero Alcohol .... and I think there > might be a passenger number limit as well. Just to clarify - you're talking about .au there. In UK, the only officially-recognised markings are the L plates though you can _get_ P plates; L plates are for a learner driver (and I'm pretty sure _must_ be displayed), who will have a "provisional" licence and must be accompanied by a full licence-holder (though I think _can_ have passengers). We don't - yet - have a "newly-passed" classification, though there are urgings that we should, with limits on passenger below (e. g.) 18 or 21 or ... (to discourage "urging" and/or distraction); tighter alcohol limits have also been suggested. Our "provisional" - learner, _not_ probationary - licence lasts a year I think; as I said, I think it can be renewed, but possibly not indefinitely. -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf We're done for the night. I'm off for a cup of tea and some crystal meth. Only joking. I've had quite enough tea for one day. - Victoria Coren Mitchell, quoted in RT 2017/10/7013
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| From | Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-08-19 00:38 +1000 |
| Subject | Re: OT: driving licences |
| Message-ID | <107vdte$34g93$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #186834 |
On 18/08/2025 11:34 pm, J. P. Gilliver wrote: > On 2025/8/18 14:10:23, Daniel70 wrote: >> On 18/08/2025 10:02 pm, J. P. Gilliver wrote: >>> On 2025/8/18 12:41:31, Daniel70 wrote: > > [] > >>>> In Australia, it used to be if you got your Drivers Licence in an >>>> Automatic car, you were licenced to drive an Automatic ONLY. >>> >>> That's how it is here (UK). If you pass on a manual (US: stick shift), >>> you're allowed to drive manuals _and_ automatics.> >>>> You were not licenced to drive a Manual car until you had a number of >>>> years driving experience. Your initial (Probationary) Licence was for >>>> three years (I think), so it may have been once you got your Full >>>> Licence you were allowed to drive a Manual. >>> I'm pretty sure we here have no such timeout - if you passed on an >>> automatic, you can only drive automatics - period, as the Americans >>> would say. > I don't think we have anything called "initial" or >>> "probationary" (though we frequently get suggestions that new drivers >>> _ought_ to be restricted in some way for a while, such as limits on >>> passengers below a certain age - but nothing's happened there yet). We >>> do have "privisional", which is for learning, but you have to have >>> someone with a full licence in the car with you. >> >> "Learners" 'L' Plates displayed. One learner and one fully qualified >> driver *ONLY* in the car ... no passengers. >> >>> That lasts a year I >>> think - though I think can be renewed, how many times I'm not sure. >>> (Maximum three years total maybe?) >>> >> "Probationary" 'P' plates displayed. Zero Alcohol .... and I think there >> might be a passenger number limit as well. > > Just to clarify - you're talking about .au there. In UK, the only > officially-recognised markings are the L plates though you can _get_ P > plates; L plates are for a learner driver (and I'm pretty sure _must_ be > displayed), who will have a "provisional" licence and must be > accompanied by a full licence-holder (though I think _can_ have > passengers). We don't - yet - have a "newly-passed" classification, > though there are urgings that we should, with limits on passenger below > (e. g.) 18 or 21 or ... (to discourage "urging" and/or distraction); > tighter alcohol limits have also been suggested. > > Our "provisional" - learner, _not_ probationary - licence lasts a year I > think; as I said, I think it can be renewed, but possibly not indefinitely. > And talking about STUPIDITY!! ..... When I got my Probationary Licence (so allowed to drive by myself), Probationary Drivers HAD to display a 'P' plate, front and rear of car, AND HAD AN 80KM/H (50MPH) MAXIMUM SPEED LIMIT. At one stage I was driving (at 80km/h) on a major, but single lane each way, thoroughfare .... so had a growing line of vehicles behind me. So, rather than causing the other drivers getting frustrated and, maybe, trying dangerous overtaking maneuvers, I sped up to the "Open" speed-limit of 100km/h .... and, sure enough, the third or fourth car behind me was an unmarked Cop car!! I didn't hold that Licence long! -- Daniel70
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| From | Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-08-18 16:55 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: OT: driving licences |
| Message-ID | <2pi6akhrrh6fc8rdkf6bf7sbkm1bkmlleo@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #186841 |
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 00:38:46 +1000, Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote: >At one stage I was driving (at 80km/h) on a major, but single lane each >way, thoroughfare .... so had a growing line of vehicles behind me. So, >rather than causing the other drivers getting frustrated and, maybe, >trying dangerous overtaking maneuvers, I sped up to the "Open" >speed-limit of 100km/h .... and, sure enough, the third or fourth car >behind me was an unmarked Cop car!! I didn't hold that Licence long! I think more than a few have been caught out by bothering about what was going on behind them. Around 20 years ago someone I knew, now deceased, was caught going through red traffic lights. His excuse, that he thought the car behind him might noot stop, didn't wash.
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| From | The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-10-06 11:58 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: OT: driving licences |
| Message-ID | <9h38ekl4f04i1i8qhl2s6hikf12geofi3v@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #186841 |
On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 00:38:46 +1000, Daniel70 <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote: >And talking about STUPIDITY!! ..... When I got my Probationary Licence >(so allowed to drive by myself), Probationary Drivers HAD to display a >'P' plate, front and rear of car, AND HAD AN 80KM/H (50MPH) MAXIMUM >SPEED LIMIT. In these parts they have an "L" and a "N" card that you were required to display - "L" meant "learner" meaning you had to have a licenced driver in the passenger seat while "N" is what you got after successfully doing your road test and had to display for your first two years. The weekend before my kids did their road tests I took each of them for a drive covering everything within 2 miles of the motor vehicle office from which they'd be doing their tests. I did that because I didn't want them to have the fate of an employee of mine who had on her first road test done a spotless test until when toodling along just below 30 mph she encountered a corner where they had a stop sign which couldn't be seen as the householder on the corner had an unpruned tree which had overgrown and blocked the view of the stop sign until she got within 10' which was too short a distance to stop in time. (She passed easily on her second test but that cost an additional $35 for the second test) On my drive by I pointed out each stop sign and playground zone sign where they would have to either stop or slow below 30 mph. All three of them passed with flying colors. (My eldest actually told the examiner before leaving the examination parking lot "given the construction zone signs around here I don't see how we can legally exit this parking lot - what would you suggest we do?" and he decided then and there unless she did something awful she was passing her test - 1/2 hour later she was all smiles)
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| From | Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-10-07 22:10 +1100 |
| Subject | Re: OT: driving licences |
| Message-ID | <10c2sg5$tebe$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #188017 |
On 7/10/2025 5:58 am, The Horny Goat wrote: > On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 00:38:46 +1000, Daniel70 > <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote: > >> And talking about STUPIDITY!! ..... When I got my Probationary Licence >> (so allowed to drive by myself), Probationary Drivers HAD to display a >> 'P' plate, front and rear of car, AND HAD AN 80KM/H (50MPH) MAXIMUM >> SPEED LIMIT. > > In these parts they have an "L" and a "N" card that you were required > to display - "L" meant "learner" meaning you had to have a licenced > driver in the passenger seat while "N" is what you got after > successfully doing your road test and had to display for your first > two years. Similar here in Victoria, Australia. From age 17 years, you can get your 'L' (Learner) plates (Black 'L' on a Yellow background) which entitles you to drive when accompanied by a fully licenced, *SOBER* , driver. I'm not sure if they are allowed to carry any other passengers. When you pass your Drivers Test (You, your licenced driver plus Test official), you get your 'P' (Probationary) Plates (Red 'P' on White background) that you have to display whilst driving for three years, I think. -- Daniel70
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-10-07 14:36 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: OT: driving licences |
| Message-ID | <l2efrlxjce.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #188038 |
On 2025-10-07 13:10, Daniel70 wrote: > On 7/10/2025 5:58 am, The Horny Goat wrote: >> On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 00:38:46 +1000, Daniel70 >> <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote: >> >>> And talking about STUPIDITY!! ..... When I got my Probationary Licence >>> (so allowed to drive by myself), Probationary Drivers HAD to display a >>> 'P' plate, front and rear of car, AND HAD AN 80KM/H (50MPH) MAXIMUM >>> SPEED LIMIT. >> >> In these parts they have an "L" and a "N" card that you were required >> to display - "L" meant "learner" meaning you had to have a licenced >> driver in the passenger seat while "N" is what you got after >> successfully doing your road test and had to display for your first >> two years. > > Similar here in Victoria, Australia. From age 17 years, you can get your > 'L' (Learner) plates (Black 'L' on a Yellow background) which entitles > you to drive when accompanied by a fully licenced, *SOBER* , driver. I'm > not sure if they are allowed to carry any other passengers. > > When you pass your Drivers Test (You, your licenced driver plus Test > official), you get your 'P' (Probationary) Plates (Red 'P' on White > background) that you have to display whilst driving for three years, I > think. Here (Spain) the L is used both for learning and during the first year after passing the test. However, during learning they are using a special "driving school" car, which has also the school advertising on the roof besides the L. After passing the exam, and obtaining the license, they have to put a green L sign behind the rear side glass. Novel drivers are not obligated to drive accompanied. And learning has to be with an authorized teacher. -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-10-08 00:00 +1100 |
| Subject | Re: OT: driving licences |
| Message-ID | <10c32tk$v2dk$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #188040 |
On 7/10/2025 11:36 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote: > On 2025-10-07 13:10, Daniel70 wrote: >> On 7/10/2025 5:58 am, The Horny Goat wrote: >>> On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 00:38:46 +1000, Daniel70 >>> <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote: >>> >>>> And talking about STUPIDITY!! ..... When I got my Probationary Licence >>>> (so allowed to drive by myself), Probationary Drivers HAD to display a >>>> 'P' plate, front and rear of car, AND HAD AN 80KM/H (50MPH) MAXIMUM >>>> SPEED LIMIT. >>> >>> In these parts they have an "L" and a "N" card that you were required >>> to display - "L" meant "learner" meaning you had to have a licenced >>> driver in the passenger seat while "N" is what you got after >>> successfully doing your road test and had to display for your first >>> two years. >> >> Similar here in Victoria, Australia. From age 17 years, you can get >> your 'L' (Learner) plates (Black 'L' on a Yellow background) which >> entitles you to drive when accompanied by a fully licenced, *SOBER* , >> driver. I'm not sure if they are allowed to carry any other passengers. >> >> When you pass your Drivers Test (You, your licenced driver plus Test >> official), you get your 'P' (Probationary) Plates (Red 'P' on White >> background) that you have to display whilst driving for three years, I >> think. > > Here (Spain) the L is used both for learning and during the first year > after passing the test. > > However, during learning they are using a special "driving school" car, Here in Victoria, Mum, Dad, Brother, Sister, can take you for your Driving Lesson as long as they, too, are fully licenced. I think most people do get Driving School lessons for at least some of the time .... and, speaking of Time, here as a 17yo, you have to have at least 120 hours of practice before attempting your Driving Test. > which has also the school advertising on the roof besides the L. After > passing the exam, and obtaining the license, they have to put a green L > sign behind the rear side glass. > > Novel drivers are not obligated to drive accompanied. > And learning has to be with an authorized teacher. > -- Daniel70
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| From | Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-10-07 16:15 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: OT: driving licences |
| Message-ID | <10c3ebt$129ds$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #188040 |
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: > On 2025-10-07 13:10, Daniel70 wrote: >> On 7/10/2025 5:58 am, The Horny Goat wrote: >>> On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 00:38:46 +1000, Daniel70 >>> <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote: >>> >>>> And talking about STUPIDITY!! ..... When I got my Probationary Licence >>>> (so allowed to drive by myself), Probationary Drivers HAD to display a >>>> 'P' plate, front and rear of car, AND HAD AN 80KM/H (50MPH) MAXIMUM >>>> SPEED LIMIT. >>> >>> In these parts they have an "L" and a "N" card that you were required >>> to display - "L" meant "learner" meaning you had to have a licenced >>> driver in the passenger seat while "N" is what you got after >>> successfully doing your road test and had to display for your first >>> two years. >> >> Similar here in Victoria, Australia. From age 17 years, you can get your >> 'L' (Learner) plates (Black 'L' on a Yellow background) which entitles >> you to drive when accompanied by a fully licenced, *SOBER* , driver. I'm >> not sure if they are allowed to carry any other passengers. >> >> When you pass your Drivers Test (You, your licenced driver plus Test >> official), you get your 'P' (Probationary) Plates (Red 'P' on White >> background) that you have to display whilst driving for three years, I >> think. > > Here (Spain) the L is used both for learning and during the first year > after passing the test. > > However, during learning they are using a special "driving school" car, > which has also the school advertising on the roof besides the L. After > passing the exam, and obtaining the license, they have to put a green L > sign behind the rear side glass. Sounds similar to the french system; you can only learn through a driving school. Then display an "A" for three years after you pass plus you have specific speed limits. Although, I don't know how well this is followed as you almost never see these stickers on cars. > Novel drivers are not obligated to drive accompanied. > And learning has to be with an authorized teacher. In the UK, anyone can accompany a learner driver as long as they are over 21 and have had a licence for at least three years. You need to have "L" plates on the car. A learner can pass the tests having never received a formal lesson. Once passed you can drive just like anyone else, but will lose your licence after only six penalty points (rather than 12) within the first two years. You then have to resit your complete test to get a new licence.
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-10-08 11:14 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: OT: driving licences |
| Message-ID | <7lmhrlxe7e.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #188043 |
On 2025-10-07 18:15, Chris wrote: > Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: >> On 2025-10-07 13:10, Daniel70 wrote: >>> On 7/10/2025 5:58 am, The Horny Goat wrote: >>>> On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 00:38:46 +1000, Daniel70 >>>> <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote: >>>> >>>>> And talking about STUPIDITY!! ..... When I got my Probationary Licence >>>>> (so allowed to drive by myself), Probationary Drivers HAD to display a >>>>> 'P' plate, front and rear of car, AND HAD AN 80KM/H (50MPH) MAXIMUM >>>>> SPEED LIMIT. >>>> >>>> In these parts they have an "L" and a "N" card that you were required >>>> to display - "L" meant "learner" meaning you had to have a licenced >>>> driver in the passenger seat while "N" is what you got after >>>> successfully doing your road test and had to display for your first >>>> two years. >>> >>> Similar here in Victoria, Australia. From age 17 years, you can get your >>> 'L' (Learner) plates (Black 'L' on a Yellow background) which entitles >>> you to drive when accompanied by a fully licenced, *SOBER* , driver. I'm >>> not sure if they are allowed to carry any other passengers. >>> >>> When you pass your Drivers Test (You, your licenced driver plus Test >>> official), you get your 'P' (Probationary) Plates (Red 'P' on White >>> background) that you have to display whilst driving for three years, I >>> think. >> >> Here (Spain) the L is used both for learning and during the first year >> after passing the test. >> >> However, during learning they are using a special "driving school" car, >> which has also the school advertising on the roof besides the L. After >> passing the exam, and obtaining the license, they have to put a green L >> sign behind the rear side glass. > > Sounds similar to the french system; you can only learn through a driving > school. Then display an "A" for three years after you pass plus you have > specific speed limits. Although, I don't know how well this is followed as > you almost never see these stickers on cars. I forgot to mention that all driving school cars have double controls. I mean, the instructor has at least pedals, so instant brake in emergency. Or acceleration. And the exam is done in the same type of car, probably the same physical car. The double pedal has a signal of some sort, so that the examiner, sitting in the back, knows instantly of the instructor intervention and fails the exam. A relatively recent modification is that there is an specific license for automated shift cars. But a person with such a license is forbidden from driving a standard sift/gear car. > >> Novel drivers are not obligated to drive accompanied. >> And learning has to be with an authorized teacher. > > In the UK, anyone can accompany a learner driver as long as they are over > 21 and have had a licence for at least three years. You need to have "L" > plates on the car. A learner can pass the tests having never received a > formal lesson. > > Once passed you can drive just like anyone else, but will lose your licence > after only six penalty points (rather than 12) within the first two years. > You then have to resit your complete test to get a new licence. Something like that in Spain, too. -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-10-08 22:16 +1100 |
| Subject | Re: OT: driving licences |
| Message-ID | <10c5h68$1i4ag$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #188074 |
On 8/10/2025 8:14 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote: > On 2025-10-07 18:15, Chris wrote: >> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: >>> On 2025-10-07 13:10, Daniel70 wrote: >>>> On 7/10/2025 5:58 am, The Horny Goat wrote: >>>>> On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 00:38:46 +1000, Daniel70 >>>>> <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> And talking about STUPIDITY!! ..... When I got my >>>>>> Probationary Licence (so allowed to drive by myself), >>>>>> Probationary Drivers HAD to display a 'P' plate, front and >>>>>> rear of car, AND HAD AN 80KM/H (50MPH) MAXIMUM SPEED >>>>>> LIMIT. >>>>> >>>>> In these parts they have an "L" and a "N" card that you were >>>>> required to display - "L" meant "learner" meaning you had to >>>>> have a licenced driver in the passenger seat while "N" is >>>>> what you got after successfully doing your road test and had >>>>> to display for your first two years. >>>> >>>> Similar here in Victoria, Australia. From age 17 years, you can >>>> get your 'L' (Learner) plates (Black 'L' on a Yellow >>>> background) which entitles you to drive when accompanied by a >>>> fully licenced, *SOBER* , driver. I'm not sure if they are >>>> allowed to carry any other passengers. >>>> >>>> When you pass your Drivers Test (You, your licenced driver plus >>>> Test official), you get your 'P' (Probationary) Plates (Red 'P' >>>> on White background) that you have to display whilst driving >>>> for three years, I think. >>> >>> Here (Spain) the L is used both for learning and during the first >>> year after passing the test. >>> >>> However, during learning they are using a special "driving >>> school" car, which has also the school advertising on the roof >>> besides the L. After passing the exam, and obtaining the license, >>> they have to put a green L sign behind the rear side glass. >> >> Sounds similar to the french system; you can only learn through a >> driving school. Then display an "A" for three years after you pass >> plus you have specific speed limits. Although, I don't know how >> well this is followed as you almost never see these stickers on >> cars. > > I forgot to mention that all driving school cars have double > controls. I mean, the instructor has at least pedals, so instant > brake in emergency. Or acceleration. > > And the exam is done in the same type of car, probably the same > physical car. The double pedal has a signal of some sort, so that the > examiner, sitting in the back, knows instantly of the instructor > intervention and fails the exam. > > A relatively recent modification is that there is an specific license > for automated shift cars. But a person with such a license is > forbidden from driving a standard sift/gear car. Similarly, here in Victoria, if you take your TEST in an Automatic car, you are licenced to drive an Automatic car .... at least initially. Our licences are for Ten years. I think, at the end of that ten years, you are deemed to be competent to drive either a Manual or Automatic car, so can drive either. -- Daniel70
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-11-25 08:36 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: OT: driving licences |
| Message-ID | <gs2gvlxlse.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #188089 |
On 2025-10-08 13:16, Daniel70 wrote: > On 8/10/2025 8:14 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> On 2025-10-07 18:15, Chris wrote: >>> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: >>>> On 2025-10-07 13:10, Daniel70 wrote: >>>>> On 7/10/2025 5:58 am, The Horny Goat wrote: >>>>>> On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 00:38:46 +1000, Daniel70 >>>>>> <daniel47@somewhere.someplaceelse> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> And talking about STUPIDITY!! ..... When I got my >>>>>>> Probationary Licence (so allowed to drive by myself), >>>>>>> Probationary Drivers HAD to display a 'P' plate, front and >>>>>>> rear of car, AND HAD AN 80KM/H (50MPH) MAXIMUM SPEED >>>>>>> LIMIT. >>>>>> >>>>>> In these parts they have an "L" and a "N" card that you were >>>>>> required to display - "L" meant "learner" meaning you had to >>>>>> have a licenced driver in the passenger seat while "N" is >>>>>> what you got after successfully doing your road test and had >>>>>> to display for your first two years. >>>>> >>>>> Similar here in Victoria, Australia. From age 17 years, you can >>>>> get your 'L' (Learner) plates (Black 'L' on a Yellow >>>>> background) which entitles you to drive when accompanied by a >>>>> fully licenced, *SOBER* , driver. I'm not sure if they are >>>>> allowed to carry any other passengers. >>>>> >>>>> When you pass your Drivers Test (You, your licenced driver plus >>>>> Test official), you get your 'P' (Probationary) Plates (Red 'P' >>>>> on White background) that you have to display whilst driving >>>>> for three years, I think. >>>> >>>> Here (Spain) the L is used both for learning and during the first >>>> year after passing the test. >>>> >>>> However, during learning they are using a special "driving >>>> school" car, which has also the school advertising on the roof >>>> besides the L. After passing the exam, and obtaining the license, >>>> they have to put a green L sign behind the rear side glass. >>> >>> Sounds similar to the french system; you can only learn through a >>> driving school. Then display an "A" for three years after you pass >>> plus you have specific speed limits. Although, I don't know how >>> well this is followed as you almost never see these stickers on >>> cars. >> >> I forgot to mention that all driving school cars have double >> controls. I mean, the instructor has at least pedals, so instant >> brake in emergency. Or acceleration. >> >> And the exam is done in the same type of car, probably the same >> physical car. The double pedal has a signal of some sort, so that the >> examiner, sitting in the back, knows instantly of the instructor >> intervention and fails the exam. >> >> A relatively recent modification is that there is an specific license >> for automated shift cars. But a person with such a license is >> forbidden from driving a standard sift/gear car. > > Similarly, here in Victoria, if you take your TEST in an Automatic car, > you are licenced to drive an Automatic car .... at least initially. > > Our licences are for Ten years. I think, at the end of that ten years, > you are deemed to be competent to drive either a Manual or Automatic > car, so can drive either. They expect you to magically learn? :-) -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-11-25 21:56 +1100 |
| Subject | Re: OT: driving licences |
| Message-ID | <10g421j$3b4ck$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #189891 |
On 25/11/2025 6:36 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote: > On 2025-10-08 13:16, Daniel70 wrote: <Snip> >> Similarly, here in Victoria, if you take your TEST in an Automatic car, >> you are licenced to drive an Automatic car .... at least initially. >> >> Our licences are for Ten years. I think, at the end of that ten years, >> you are deemed to be competent to drive either a Manual or Automatic >> car, so can drive either. > > They expect you to magically learn? :-) > Well, experience HAS to count for something, surely. ;-) -- Daniel70
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-11-25 12:41 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: OT: driving licences |
| Message-ID | <38hgvlx5bj.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #189896 |
On 2025-11-25 11:56, Daniel70 wrote: > On 25/11/2025 6:36 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> On 2025-10-08 13:16, Daniel70 wrote: > > <Snip> > >>> Similarly, here in Victoria, if you take your TEST in an Automatic car, >>> you are licenced to drive an Automatic car .... at least initially. >>> >>> Our licences are for Ten years. I think, at the end of that ten years, >>> you are deemed to be competent to drive either a Manual or Automatic >>> car, so can drive either. >> >> They expect you to magically learn? :-) >> > Well, experience HAS to count for something, surely. ;-) Sure, but the smooth handling of the gears and clutch is not an automatic skill. And Spain is a very hilly country. Imagine parking on a steep slope. -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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