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Re: Air America!

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  Re: Air America! Mitchell Holman <noemail@comcast.net> - 2016-06-05 21:28 -0500
    Re: Air America! "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-06-06 14:19 +1000
    Re: Air America! Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-06-06 02:08 -0400
      Re: Air America! "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-06-06 17:21 +1000
        Re: Air America! Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-06-06 04:32 -0400
          Re: Air America! "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-06-07 09:44 +1000
            Re: Air America! Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-06-06 23:08 -0400
      Re: Air America! Mitchell Holman <noemail@comcast.net> - 2016-06-06 08:02 -0500
        Re: Air America! Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-06-06 14:14 -0400
          Re: Air America! Mitchell Holman <noemail@comcast.net> - 2016-06-06 21:10 -0500
            Re: Air America! Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-06-06 23:11 -0400
              Re: Air America! Mitchell Holman <noemail@comcast.net> - 2016-06-07 17:13 -0500
                Re: Air America! Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2016-06-07 18:22 -0400

#2120593 — Re: Air America!

Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote in 
news:8276lbp0cevc1n5kjrkq4na9b4814uf3qs@4ax.com:

> On Sat, 04 Jun 2016 12:38:24 -0500, Mitchell Holman
> <noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
> <XnsA61D80C187F35noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:
> 
>>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     Americans will never stand for it. 
>>> 
>>> You might be surprised. We are close now with SS cards and driver's
>>> licenses.  It is a necessity today.
>>
>>
>>    You don't need to produce an SSI card to 
>>buy a roll of stamps or pay your water bill.
>>Just try requiring it and see what happens. 
> 
> You need ID and/or your 'taxpayer ID"  (SSN) to open a bank account,
> see a doctor, or apply for credit.  And usually to sign up for
> utilities.


     None of those require proof of citizenship. 
Americans would not put up with dollar coin or 
$2 bill, they are certainly not going to put up
with proving their nationality wherever they go. 



>>> 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not many would last long enough to be interested in either the 
>>post
>>>>>>>>> office or the DMV.  Especially if sending money out of the 
>>country 
>>>>in
>>>>>>>>> any way required such ID.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    
>>>>>>>>   Corporations send billions of dollars out
>>>>>>>>of the country every day. Why should people
>>>>>>>>be barred from doing it. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Corporations do it for business reasons.  This is a necessary 
part 
>>of
>>>>>>> international trade and multi-national economic activity.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This is not true for individuals, and frequently the sender is 
here
>>>>>>> illegally.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    
>>>>>>    If someone wants to send money to their relatives
>>>>>>in Ireland or Japan - or Mexico - that is their option,
>>>>>>no?
>>>>> 
>>>>> As long as they are here legally and the amount should be limited 
to
>>>>> insure they are not acting as agents for others.  Records of such
>>>>> activity should be kept.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>    Records are already being kept of money transfers. 
>>> 
>>> These transfers are the reason many illegals are here and should be
>>> stopped on that basis alone.
>>
>>
>>    How do you stop people from sending money abroad?
> 
> Prevent the services such as Western Union from doing so, and stop
> banks from allowing individuals to open accounts in other countries or
> making deposits to such accounts.
> 
> It would be easy to track and block any electronic transfers by
> individuals out of the country.


     If it was so easy it would have been long
before now. Fact is money has to cross borders
by the billions every minute. Demanding that 
every sender prove their nationality is silly. 


> 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Alabama Illegal Immigrant Crackdown Destroys Farm Business
>>>>>>July 2012
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sunday, the Associated Press reported worker shortages 
>>>>>>have prompted some Alabama farmers who grow labor-intensive 
>>>>>>produce to plant less, rather than have crops rot in the 
>>>>>>fields again this year. Few locals will perform the grueling 
>>>>>>work of picking crops, and farmers stuck in a agricultural 
>>>>>>system built on illegal labor are struggling to find 
>>>>>>replacements before their produce rots. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Alabama’s situation is not unique. Georgia passed a similar 
>>>>>>immigration law in 2011. When undocumented workers fled, 
>>>>>>farmers lost around 40% of their workers and $140 million 
>>>>>>worth of blueberries, melons, onions, and other crops due 
>>>>>>to labor shortages. This year Georgia farmers again fear 
>>>>>>they will be short on workers to pick the crops, and many 
>>>>>>have scaled back production or stopped planting altogether.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://tinyurl.com/ckusuge
>>>>> 
>>>>> There will be an adjustment period.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>     Americans don't want adjustment periods,
>>>>they want clean hotel rooms and fresh vegetables
>>>>and mowed lawns and fixed potholes, and so far
>>>>only illegals are willing to do those jobs. 
>>> 
>>> When illegals are gone another solution will be found.  It always is.
>>
>>
>>     What solution is that?
> 
> Automation, and other labor sources.  Perhaps more legal immigration
> if needed.


      Is automation going to clean your hotel 
room and patch your roof and mow your yard?

      



>>>>
>>>>Illegal immigrants benefit the U.S. economy
>>>>Aug 2014
>>>>
>>>>According to the Pew Research Hispanic Trends 
>>>>Project, there were 8.4 million unauthorized 
>>>>immigrants employed in the U.S.; representing 
>>>>5.2 percent of the U.S. labor force (an increase 
>>>>from 3.8 percent in 2000). Their importance was 
>>>>highlighted in a report by Texas Comptroller 
>>>>Susan Combs that stated, “Without the undocumented 
>>>>population, Texas’ work force would decrease by 
>>>>6.3 percent” and Texas’ gross state product would 
>>>>decrease by 2.1 percent.  Furthermore, certain 
>>>>segments of the U.S. economy, like agriculture, 
>>>>are entirely dependent upon illegal immigrants.
>>>>
>>>>http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/203984-illegal-
>>>>immigrants-benefit-the-us-economy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  "entirely dependent on illegal immigrants", indeed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> 
>>> Again I totally disagree.  We should not be dependent in any way upon
>>> illegal activity.
>>
>>
>>     Then we should do it the Reagan way and
>>legalize them. 
> 
> I opposed that, knew it would not work (it didn't) and oppose it now.


     Show us the downside to Reagan legalizing
millions of immigrants. Did the stock market 
crash, did jobs disappear, did Americans go 
hungry?

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#2120655

On 06/06/2016 12:28, Mitchell Holman wrote:
> Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote in
> news:8276lbp0cevc1n5kjrkq4na9b4814uf3qs@4ax.com:
>
>> On Sat, 04 Jun 2016 12:38:24 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>> <noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
>> <XnsA61D80C187F35noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     Americans will never stand for it.
>>>>
>>>> You might be surprised. We are close now with SS cards and driver's
>>>> licenses.  It is a necessity today.
>>>
>>>
>>>    You don't need to produce an SSI card to
>>> buy a roll of stamps or pay your water bill.
>>> Just try requiring it and see what happens.
>>
>> You need ID and/or your 'taxpayer ID"  (SSN) to open a bank account,
>> see a doctor, or apply for credit.  And usually to sign up for
>> utilities.
>
>
>      None of those require proof of citizenship.
> Americans would not put up with dollar coin or
> $2 bill, they are certainly not going to put up
> with proving their nationality wherever they go.
>
>
>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Not many would last long enough to be interested in either the
>>> post
>>>>>>>>>> office or the DMV.  Especially if sending money out of the
>>> country
>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> any way required such ID.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   Corporations send billions of dollars out
>>>>>>>>> of the country every day. Why should people
>>>>>>>>> be barred from doing it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Corporations do it for business reasons.  This is a necessary
> part
>>> of
>>>>>>>> international trade and multi-national economic activity.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is not true for individuals, and frequently the sender is
> here
>>>>>>>> illegally.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    If someone wants to send money to their relatives
>>>>>>> in Ireland or Japan - or Mexico - that is their option,
>>>>>>> no?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As long as they are here legally and the amount should be limited
> to
>>>>>> insure they are not acting as agents for others.  Records of such
>>>>>> activity should be kept.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    Records are already being kept of money transfers.
>>>>
>>>> These transfers are the reason many illegals are here and should be
>>>> stopped on that basis alone.
>>>
>>>
>>>    How do you stop people from sending money abroad?
>>
>> Prevent the services such as Western Union from doing so, and stop
>> banks from allowing individuals to open accounts in other countries or
>> making deposits to such accounts.
>>
>> It would be easy to track and block any electronic transfers by
>> individuals out of the country.
>
>
>      If it was so easy it would have been long
> before now. Fact is money has to cross borders
> by the billions every minute. Demanding that
> every sender prove their nationality is silly.

Can you imagine the effect on tourism it would have if visitors to the 
US -- by definition foreigners -- were barred from getting or sending 
money?


>>>>>     Americans don't want adjustment periods,
>>>>> they want clean hotel rooms and fresh vegetables
>>>>> and mowed lawns and fixed potholes, and so far
>>>>> only illegals are willing to do those jobs.
>>>>
>>>> When illegals are gone another solution will be found.  It always is.
>>>
>>>
>>>     What solution is that?
>>
>> Automation, and other labor sources.  Perhaps more legal immigration
>> if needed.
>
>
>       Is automation going to clean your hotel
> room and patch your roof and mow your yard?

I think he imagines that millions of Americans would line up for a 
chance to do crappy dead-end jobs at minimum wage.  Hey, going round 
cleaning toilets and changing bedsheets stained with shit (or worse) is 
a dream career, right?  And when you have finally managed to get that 
High school certificate, nothing fits your career plans better than 
spending long hard shifts cutting the guts out of chickens for less 
money an hour than Starbucks charges for a semi-decaf soy latte.


>>>>>
>>>>> Illegal immigrants benefit the U.S. economy
>>>>> Aug 2014
>>>>>
>>>>> According to the Pew Research Hispanic Trends
>>>>> Project, there were 8.4 million unauthorized
>>>>> immigrants employed in the U.S.; representing
>>>>> 5.2 percent of the U.S. labor force (an increase
>>>> >from 3.8 percent in 2000). Their importance was
>>>>> highlighted in a report by Texas Comptroller
>>>>> Susan Combs that stated, “Without the undocumented
>>>>> population, Texas’ work force would decrease by
>>>>> 6.3 percent” and Texas’ gross state product would
>>>>> decrease by 2.1 percent.  Furthermore, certain
>>>>> segments of the U.S. economy, like agriculture,
>>>>> are entirely dependent upon illegal immigrants.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/203984-illegal-
>>>>> immigrants-benefit-the-us-economy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  "entirely dependent on illegal immigrants", indeed.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Again I totally disagree.  We should not be dependent in any way upon
>>>> illegal activity.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Then we should do it the Reagan way and
>>> legalize them.
>>
>> I opposed that, knew it would not work (it didn't) and oppose it now.
>
>
>      Show us the downside to Reagan legalizing
> millions of immigrants. Did the stock market
> crash, did jobs disappear, did Americans go
> hungry?
>

The federal minimum wage is $7.25.
Assume a worker at that hourly rate working 40 hours a week without 
taking any time off.
He will earn $15,080 gross, before payroll taxes.

The official poverty threshold for a single-person household is $11,770 p.a.

So that's a good job, right?

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#2120694

On Sun, 05 Jun 2016 21:28:59 -0500, Mitchell Holman
<noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
<XnsA61EDAB682400noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:

>Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote in 
>news:8276lbp0cevc1n5kjrkq4na9b4814uf3qs@4ax.com:
>
>> On Sat, 04 Jun 2016 12:38:24 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>> <noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
>> <XnsA61D80C187F35noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:
>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     Americans will never stand for it. 
>>>> 
>>>> You might be surprised. We are close now with SS cards and driver's
>>>> licenses.  It is a necessity today.
>>>
>>>
>>>    You don't need to produce an SSI card to 
>>>buy a roll of stamps or pay your water bill.
>>>Just try requiring it and see what happens. 
>> 
>> You need ID and/or your 'taxpayer ID"  (SSN) to open a bank account,
>> see a doctor, or apply for credit.  And usually to sign up for
>> utilities.
>
>
>     None of those require proof of citizenship. 
>Americans would not put up with dollar coin or 
>$2 bill, they are certainly not going to put up
>with proving their nationality wherever they go. 

They need a taxpayer ID, and if such and ID was required it would be
used.  Just as a drivers license is used now.

No ID, no activity whatever it is.

>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Not many would last long enough to be interested in either the 
>>>post
>>>>>>>>>> office or the DMV.  Especially if sending money out of the 
>>>country 
>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>>> any way required such ID.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>    
>>>>>>>>>   Corporations send billions of dollars out
>>>>>>>>>of the country every day. Why should people
>>>>>>>>>be barred from doing it. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Corporations do it for business reasons.  This is a necessary 
>part 
>>>of
>>>>>>>> international trade and multi-national economic activity.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> This is not true for individuals, and frequently the sender is 
>here
>>>>>>>> illegally.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    
>>>>>>>    If someone wants to send money to their relatives
>>>>>>>in Ireland or Japan - or Mexico - that is their option,
>>>>>>>no?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> As long as they are here legally and the amount should be limited 
>to
>>>>>> insure they are not acting as agents for others.  Records of such
>>>>>> activity should be kept.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>>    Records are already being kept of money transfers. 
>>>> 
>>>> These transfers are the reason many illegals are here and should be
>>>> stopped on that basis alone.
>>>
>>>
>>>    How do you stop people from sending money abroad?
>> 
>> Prevent the services such as Western Union from doing so, and stop
>> banks from allowing individuals to open accounts in other countries or
>> making deposits to such accounts.
>> 
>> It would be easy to track and block any electronic transfers by
>> individuals out of the country.
>
>
>     If it was so easy it would have been long
>before now. Fact is money has to cross borders
>by the billions every minute. Demanding that 
>every sender prove their nationality is silly. 

Not really.  Computers can do more every day.

You might be amazed to know what is possible.


>
>
>> 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Alabama Illegal Immigrant Crackdown Destroys Farm Business
>>>>>>>July 2012
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Sunday, the Associated Press reported worker shortages 
>>>>>>>have prompted some Alabama farmers who grow labor-intensive 
>>>>>>>produce to plant less, rather than have crops rot in the 
>>>>>>>fields again this year. Few locals will perform the grueling 
>>>>>>>work of picking crops, and farmers stuck in a agricultural 
>>>>>>>system built on illegal labor are struggling to find 
>>>>>>>replacements before their produce rots. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Alabama’s situation is not unique. Georgia passed a similar 
>>>>>>>immigration law in 2011. When undocumented workers fled, 
>>>>>>>farmers lost around 40% of their workers and $140 million 
>>>>>>>worth of blueberries, melons, onions, and other crops due 
>>>>>>>to labor shortages. This year Georgia farmers again fear 
>>>>>>>they will be short on workers to pick the crops, and many 
>>>>>>>have scaled back production or stopped planting altogether.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://tinyurl.com/ckusuge
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> There will be an adjustment period.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     
>>>>>     Americans don't want adjustment periods,
>>>>>they want clean hotel rooms and fresh vegetables
>>>>>and mowed lawns and fixed potholes, and so far
>>>>>only illegals are willing to do those jobs. 
>>>> 
>>>> When illegals are gone another solution will be found.  It always is.
>>>
>>>
>>>     What solution is that?
>> 
>> Automation, and other labor sources.  Perhaps more legal immigration
>> if needed.
>
>
>      Is automation going to clean your hotel 
>room and patch your roof and mow your yard?

Who knows?  Robotics are expanding every day.  Even cars are going to
drive themselves.

>
>      
>
>
>
>>>>>
>>>>>Illegal immigrants benefit the U.S. economy
>>>>>Aug 2014
>>>>>
>>>>>According to the Pew Research Hispanic Trends 
>>>>>Project, there were 8.4 million unauthorized 
>>>>>immigrants employed in the U.S.; representing 
>>>>>5.2 percent of the U.S. labor force (an increase 
>>>>>from 3.8 percent in 2000). Their importance was 
>>>>>highlighted in a report by Texas Comptroller 
>>>>>Susan Combs that stated, “Without the undocumented 
>>>>>population, Texas’ work force would decrease by 
>>>>>6.3 percent” and Texas’ gross state product would 
>>>>>decrease by 2.1 percent.  Furthermore, certain 
>>>>>segments of the U.S. economy, like agriculture, 
>>>>>are entirely dependent upon illegal immigrants.
>>>>>
>>>>>http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/203984-illegal-
>>>>>immigrants-benefit-the-us-economy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  "entirely dependent on illegal immigrants", indeed.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> 
>>>> Again I totally disagree.  We should not be dependent in any way upon
>>>> illegal activity.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Then we should do it the Reagan way and
>>>legalize them. 
>> 
>> I opposed that, knew it would not work (it didn't) and oppose it now.
>
>
>     Show us the downside to Reagan legalizing
>millions of immigrants. Did the stock market 
>crash, did jobs disappear, did Americans go 
>hungry?

The downside was letting millions of people get away with breaking the
law and rewarding them for doing so.  it encouraged millions more to
do the same thing.


--
Some of the Republican positions I find disgusting and abhorrent.

Most of the Democratic positions I find terrifying, especially 
those proposed by His Imperial Majesty Emperor Ass.

Any day now I expect some liberal to demand a government 
guaranteed above average income for every person.

Every illegal alien is a criminal.
No amnesty or work permit under any name or for any reason.
Deportation upon identification as the only option.

If you must text and drive please kill yourself quickly
before you run into me.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#2120707

On 06/06/2016 16:08, Attila wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Jun 2016 21:28:59 -0500, Mitchell Holman
> <noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
> <XnsA61EDAB682400noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:
>
>> Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote in
>> news:8276lbp0cevc1n5kjrkq4na9b4814uf3qs@4ax.com:
>>


>>>>
>>>>    You don't need to produce an SSI card to
>>>> buy a roll of stamps or pay your water bill.
>>>> Just try requiring it and see what happens.
>>>
>>> You need ID and/or your 'taxpayer ID"  (SSN) to open a bank account,
>>> see a doctor, or apply for credit.  And usually to sign up for
>>> utilities.
>>
>>
>>     None of those require proof of citizenship.
>> Americans would not put up with dollar coin or
>> $2 bill, they are certainly not going to put up
>> with proving their nationality wherever they go.
>
> They need a taxpayer ID, and if such and ID was required it would be
> used.  Just as a drivers license is used now.
>
> No ID, no activity whatever it is.

So, tell us: how do you feel about your government knowing exactly and 
at all times what you do, where you do it, when you do it, with whom you 
do it?


>>>>    How do you stop people from sending money abroad?
>>>
>>> Prevent the services such as Western Union from doing so, and stop
>>> banks from allowing individuals to open accounts in other countries or
>>> making deposits to such accounts.
>>>
>>> It would be easy to track and block any electronic transfers by
>>> individuals out of the country.
>>
>>
>>     If it was so easy it would have been long
>> before now. Fact is money has to cross borders
>> by the billions every minute. Demanding that
>> every sender prove their nationality is silly.
>
> Not really.  Computers can do more every day.
>
> You might be amazed to know what is possible.

What is possible does not equate to what is feasible.
It certainly does not equate to what is practical.
Nor indeed that it is in any way cost-effective.

And absolutely not that it is desirable.


>>
>>     Show us the downside to Reagan legalizing
>> millions of immigrants. Did the stock market
>> crash, did jobs disappear, did Americans go
>> hungry?
>
> The downside was letting millions of people get away with breaking the
> law and rewarding them for doing so.  it encouraged millions more to
> do the same thing.

If it were that attractive, you wouldn't have 12 million undocumented 
aliens in the country but 112 million.

Hell, even many skilled foreigners who'd have no trouble getting a green 
card decline the "honour".  I personally know several ... including the 
GF who knocked back a three-month consulting gig in Miami just this week.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#2120722

On Mon, 6 Jun 2016 17:21:01 +1000, "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> in
alt.atheism with message-id <drkmikF7trdU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:

>On 06/06/2016 16:08, Attila wrote:
>> On Sun, 05 Jun 2016 21:28:59 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>> <noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
>> <XnsA61EDAB682400noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:
>>
>>> Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote in
>>> news:8276lbp0cevc1n5kjrkq4na9b4814uf3qs@4ax.com:
>>>
>
>
>>>>>
>>>>>    You don't need to produce an SSI card to
>>>>> buy a roll of stamps or pay your water bill.
>>>>> Just try requiring it and see what happens.
>>>>
>>>> You need ID and/or your 'taxpayer ID"  (SSN) to open a bank account,
>>>> see a doctor, or apply for credit.  And usually to sign up for
>>>> utilities.
>>>
>>>
>>>     None of those require proof of citizenship.
>>> Americans would not put up with dollar coin or
>>> $2 bill, they are certainly not going to put up
>>> with proving their nationality wherever they go.
>>
>> They need a taxpayer ID, and if such and ID was required it would be
>> used.  Just as a drivers license is used now.
>>
>> No ID, no activity whatever it is.
>
>So, tell us: how do you feel about your government knowing exactly and 
>at all times what you do, where you do it, when you do it, with whom you 
>do it?

I don't like it but I see no alternative.  Much of that can be done
now.

>
>
>>>>>    How do you stop people from sending money abroad?
>>>>
>>>> Prevent the services such as Western Union from doing so, and stop
>>>> banks from allowing individuals to open accounts in other countries or
>>>> making deposits to such accounts.
>>>>
>>>> It would be easy to track and block any electronic transfers by
>>>> individuals out of the country.
>>>
>>>
>>>     If it was so easy it would have been long
>>> before now. Fact is money has to cross borders
>>> by the billions every minute. Demanding that
>>> every sender prove their nationality is silly.
>>
>> Not really.  Computers can do more every day.
>>
>> You might be amazed to know what is possible.
>
>What is possible does not equate to what is feasible.
>It certainly does not equate to what is practical.
>Nor indeed that it is in any way cost-effective.
>
>And absolutely not that it is desirable.

That is a matter of opinion.

>
>
>>>
>>>     Show us the downside to Reagan legalizing
>>> millions of immigrants. Did the stock market
>>> crash, did jobs disappear, did Americans go
>>> hungry?
>>
>> The downside was letting millions of people get away with breaking the
>> law and rewarding them for doing so.  it encouraged millions more to
>> do the same thing.
>
>If it were that attractive, you wouldn't have 12 million undocumented 
>aliens in the country but 112 million.

But we currently have 12 million too many.  They need to be removed
and prevented from reentry.

>
>Hell, even many skilled foreigners who'd have no trouble getting a green 
>card decline the "honour".  I personally know several ... including the 
>GF who knocked back a three-month consulting gig in Miami just this week.
>

Perhaps that program should be addressed also.

Bottom line - if you are illegal expect the hand on the shoulder or
the knock at the door - anytime.  And it will cost you and anyone who
hires you very big money.


--
Some of the Republican positions I find disgusting and abhorrent.

Most of the Democratic positions I find terrifying, especially 
those proposed by His Imperial Majesty Emperor Ass.

Any day now I expect some liberal to demand a government 
guaranteed above average income for every person.

Every illegal alien is a criminal.
No amnesty or work permit under any name or for any reason.
Deportation upon identification as the only option.

If you must text and drive please kill yourself quickly
before you run into me.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#2121121

On 06/06/2016 18:32, Attila wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Jun 2016 17:21:01 +1000, "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> in
> alt.atheism with message-id <drkmikF7trdU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>
>> On 06/06/2016 16:08, Attila wrote:
>>> On Sun, 05 Jun 2016 21:28:59 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>>> <noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>> <XnsA61EDAB682400noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote in
>>>> news:8276lbp0cevc1n5kjrkq4na9b4814uf3qs@4ax.com:
>>>>
>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    You don't need to produce an SSI card to
>>>>>> buy a roll of stamps or pay your water bill.
>>>>>> Just try requiring it and see what happens.
>>>>>
>>>>> You need ID and/or your 'taxpayer ID"  (SSN) to open a bank account,
>>>>> see a doctor, or apply for credit.  And usually to sign up for
>>>>> utilities.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     None of those require proof of citizenship.
>>>> Americans would not put up with dollar coin or
>>>> $2 bill, they are certainly not going to put up
>>>> with proving their nationality wherever they go.
>>>
>>> They need a taxpayer ID, and if such and ID was required it would be
>>> used.  Just as a drivers license is used now.
>>>
>>> No ID, no activity whatever it is.
>>
>> So, tell us: how do you feel about your government knowing exactly and
>> at all times what you do, where you do it, when you do it, with whom you
>> do it?
>
> I don't like it but I see no alternative.  Much of that can be done
> now.

So you want to combat one evil by introducing a far more insidious 
solution?  That's like letting loose a rattlesnake in your home when you 
have a rat problem.


>
>>
>>
>>>>>>    How do you stop people from sending money abroad?
>>>>>
>>>>> Prevent the services such as Western Union from doing so, and stop
>>>>> banks from allowing individuals to open accounts in other countries or
>>>>> making deposits to such accounts.
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be easy to track and block any electronic transfers by
>>>>> individuals out of the country.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     If it was so easy it would have been long
>>>> before now. Fact is money has to cross borders
>>>> by the billions every minute. Demanding that
>>>> every sender prove their nationality is silly.
>>>
>>> Not really.  Computers can do more every day.
>>>
>>> You might be amazed to know what is possible.
>>
>> What is possible does not equate to what is feasible.
>> It certainly does not equate to what is practical.
>> Nor indeed that it is in any way cost-effective.
>>
>> And absolutely not that it is desirable.
>
> That is a matter of opinion.
>
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>     Show us the downside to Reagan legalizing
>>>> millions of immigrants. Did the stock market
>>>> crash, did jobs disappear, did Americans go
>>>> hungry?
>>>
>>> The downside was letting millions of people get away with breaking the
>>> law and rewarding them for doing so.  it encouraged millions more to
>>> do the same thing.
>>
>> If it were that attractive, you wouldn't have 12 million undocumented
>> aliens in the country but 112 million.
>
> But we currently have 12 million too many.  They need to be removed
> and prevented from reentry.

Aside from the logistical implausibility of deporting such large 
numbers, what is your answer to the inevitable upheaval south of the 
border?  Please don't kid yourself that this will not have an impact on 
the US.

More importantly, what do you expect will happen when those 12 million 
suddenly disappear form the labour pool?  How happy do you think 
Americans will be with the full-blown recession that will follow?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#2121200

On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 09:44:42 +1000, "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> in
alt.atheism with message-id <drmg73FjfchU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:

>On 06/06/2016 18:32, Attila wrote:
>> On Mon, 6 Jun 2016 17:21:01 +1000, "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> in
>> alt.atheism with message-id <drkmikF7trdU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/06/2016 16:08, Attila wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 05 Jun 2016 21:28:59 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>>>> <noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>> <XnsA61EDAB682400noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote in
>>>>> news:8276lbp0cevc1n5kjrkq4na9b4814uf3qs@4ax.com:
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    You don't need to produce an SSI card to
>>>>>>> buy a roll of stamps or pay your water bill.
>>>>>>> Just try requiring it and see what happens.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You need ID and/or your 'taxpayer ID"  (SSN) to open a bank account,
>>>>>> see a doctor, or apply for credit.  And usually to sign up for
>>>>>> utilities.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     None of those require proof of citizenship.
>>>>> Americans would not put up with dollar coin or
>>>>> $2 bill, they are certainly not going to put up
>>>>> with proving their nationality wherever they go.
>>>>
>>>> They need a taxpayer ID, and if such and ID was required it would be
>>>> used.  Just as a drivers license is used now.
>>>>
>>>> No ID, no activity whatever it is.
>>>
>>> So, tell us: how do you feel about your government knowing exactly and
>>> at all times what you do, where you do it, when you do it, with whom you
>>> do it?
>>
>> I don't like it but I see no alternative.  Much of that can be done
>> now.
>
>So you want to combat one evil by introducing a far more insidious 
>solution?  That's like letting loose a rattlesnake in your home when you 
>have a rat problem.

More opinion.  I see it as a necessity.

>>>
>>>>>>>    How do you stop people from sending money abroad?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Prevent the services such as Western Union from doing so, and stop
>>>>>> banks from allowing individuals to open accounts in other countries or
>>>>>> making deposits to such accounts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It would be easy to track and block any electronic transfers by
>>>>>> individuals out of the country.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     If it was so easy it would have been long
>>>>> before now. Fact is money has to cross borders
>>>>> by the billions every minute. Demanding that
>>>>> every sender prove their nationality is silly.
>>>>
>>>> Not really.  Computers can do more every day.
>>>>
>>>> You might be amazed to know what is possible.
>>>
>>> What is possible does not equate to what is feasible.
>>> It certainly does not equate to what is practical.
>>> Nor indeed that it is in any way cost-effective.
>>>
>>> And absolutely not that it is desirable.
>>
>> That is a matter of opinion.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     Show us the downside to Reagan legalizing
>>>>> millions of immigrants. Did the stock market
>>>>> crash, did jobs disappear, did Americans go
>>>>> hungry?
>>>>
>>>> The downside was letting millions of people get away with breaking the
>>>> law and rewarding them for doing so.  it encouraged millions more to
>>>> do the same thing.
>>>
>>> If it were that attractive, you wouldn't have 12 million undocumented
>>> aliens in the country but 112 million.
>>
>> But we currently have 12 million too many.  They need to be removed
>> and prevented from reentry.
>
>Aside from the logistical implausibility of deporting such large 
>numbers, what is your answer to the inevitable upheaval south of the 
>border?  Please don't kid yourself that this will not have an impact on 
>the US.

Let them worry about it.  They certainly don't worry about us.

>
>More importantly, what do you expect will happen when those 12 million 
>suddenly disappear form the labour pool?  How happy do you think 
>Americans will be with the full-blown recession that will follow?
>
>
There will be no recession.

--
Some of the Republican positions I find disgusting and abhorrent.

Most of the Democratic positions I find terrifying, especially 
those proposed by His Imperial Majesty Emperor Ass.

Any day now I expect some liberal to demand a government 
guaranteed above average income for every person.

Every illegal alien is a criminal.
No amnesty or work permit under any name or for any reason.
Deportation upon identification as the only option.

If you must text and drive please kill yourself quickly
before you run into me.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#2120789

Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote in 
news:jh4alb9djlj4c720b9n18a6n8vbuc6p3kr@4ax.com:

> On Sun, 05 Jun 2016 21:28:59 -0500, Mitchell Holman
> <noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
> <XnsA61EDAB682400noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:
> 
>>Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote in 
>>news:8276lbp0cevc1n5kjrkq4na9b4814uf3qs@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Sat, 04 Jun 2016 12:38:24 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>>> <noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>> <XnsA61D80C187F35noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Americans will never stand for it. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> You might be surprised. We are close now with SS cards and driver's
>>>>> licenses.  It is a necessity today.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    You don't need to produce an SSI card to 
>>>>buy a roll of stamps or pay your water bill.
>>>>Just try requiring it and see what happens. 
>>> 
>>> You need ID and/or your 'taxpayer ID"  (SSN) to open a bank account,
>>> see a doctor, or apply for credit.  And usually to sign up for
>>> utilities.
>>
>>
>>     None of those require proof of citizenship. 
>>Americans would not put up with dollar coin or 
>>$2 bill, they are certainly not going to put up
>>with proving their nationality wherever they go. 
> 
> They need a taxpayer ID, and if such and ID was required it would be
> used.  Just as a drivers license is used now.
> 
> No ID, no activity whatever it is.
> 


   Americans will not stand for having to prove
their nationality everytime they buy or sell. 




>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Not many would last long enough to be interested in either 
the 
>>>>post
>>>>>>>>>>> office or the DMV.  Especially if sending money out of the 
>>>>country 
>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>>>> any way required such ID.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    
>>>>>>>>>>   Corporations send billions of dollars out
>>>>>>>>>>of the country every day. Why should people
>>>>>>>>>>be barred from doing it. 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Corporations do it for business reasons.  This is a necessary 
>>part 
>>>>of
>>>>>>>>> international trade and multi-national economic activity.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> This is not true for individuals, and frequently the sender is 
>>here
>>>>>>>>> illegally.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    
>>>>>>>>    If someone wants to send money to their relatives
>>>>>>>>in Ireland or Japan - or Mexico - that is their option,
>>>>>>>>no?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> As long as they are here legally and the amount should be limited 
>>to
>>>>>>> insure they are not acting as agents for others.  Records of such
>>>>>>> activity should be kept.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Records are already being kept of money transfers. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> These transfers are the reason many illegals are here and should be
>>>>> stopped on that basis alone.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    How do you stop people from sending money abroad?
>>> 
>>> Prevent the services such as Western Union from doing so, and stop
>>> banks from allowing individuals to open accounts in other countries 
or
>>> making deposits to such accounts.
>>> 
>>> It would be easy to track and block any electronic transfers by
>>> individuals out of the country.
>>
>>
>>     If it was so easy it would have been long
>>before now. Fact is money has to cross borders
>>by the billions every minute. Demanding that 
>>every sender prove their nationality is silly. 
> 
> Not really.  Computers can do more every day.
> 
> You might be amazed to know what is possible.


      If it was possible it would have been done by now. 



>>>>>>>>Alabama Illegal Immigrant Crackdown Destroys Farm Business
>>>>>>>>July 2012
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Sunday, the Associated Press reported worker shortages 
>>>>>>>>have prompted some Alabama farmers who grow labor-intensive 
>>>>>>>>produce to plant less, rather than have crops rot in the 
>>>>>>>>fields again this year. Few locals will perform the grueling 
>>>>>>>>work of picking crops, and farmers stuck in a agricultural 
>>>>>>>>system built on illegal labor are struggling to find 
>>>>>>>>replacements before their produce rots. 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Alabama’s situation is not unique. Georgia passed a similar 
>>>>>>>>immigration law in 2011. When undocumented workers fled, 
>>>>>>>>farmers lost around 40% of their workers and $140 million 
>>>>>>>>worth of blueberries, melons, onions, and other crops due 
>>>>>>>>to labor shortages. This year Georgia farmers again fear 
>>>>>>>>they will be short on workers to pick the crops, and many 
>>>>>>>>have scaled back production or stopped planting altogether.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>http://tinyurl.com/ckusuge
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> There will be an adjustment period.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     
>>>>>>     Americans don't want adjustment periods,
>>>>>>they want clean hotel rooms and fresh vegetables
>>>>>>and mowed lawns and fixed potholes, and so far
>>>>>>only illegals are willing to do those jobs. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> When illegals are gone another solution will be found.  It always 
is.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     What solution is that?
>>> 
>>> Automation, and other labor sources.  Perhaps more legal immigration
>>> if needed.
>>
>>
>>      Is automation going to clean your hotel 
>>room and patch your roof and mow your yard?
> 
> Who knows?  Robotics are expanding every day.  Even cars are going to
> drive themselves.


     No robot is going clean your hotel room or 
change your bedban or fix your roof. We need 
cheap labor. We have always needed cheap labor.




>>>>>>Illegal immigrants benefit the U.S. economy
>>>>>>Aug 2014
>>>>>>
>>>>>>According to the Pew Research Hispanic Trends 
>>>>>>Project, there were 8.4 million unauthorized 
>>>>>>immigrants employed in the U.S.; representing 
>>>>>>5.2 percent of the U.S. labor force (an increase 
>>>>>>from 3.8 percent in 2000). Their importance was 
>>>>>>highlighted in a report by Texas Comptroller 
>>>>>>Susan Combs that stated, “Without the undocumented 
>>>>>>population, Texas’ work force would decrease by 
>>>>>>6.3 percent” and Texas’ gross state product would 
>>>>>>decrease by 2.1 percent.  Furthermore, certain 
>>>>>>segments of the U.S. economy, like agriculture, 
>>>>>>are entirely dependent upon illegal immigrants.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/203984-
illegal-
>>>>>>immigrants-benefit-the-us-economy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  "entirely dependent on illegal immigrants", indeed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> Again I totally disagree.  We should not be dependent in any way 
upon
>>>>> illegal activity.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     Then we should do it the Reagan way and
>>>>legalize them. 
>>> 
>>> I opposed that, knew it would not work (it didn't) and oppose it now.
>>
>>
>>     Show us the downside to Reagan legalizing
>>millions of immigrants. Did the stock market 
>>crash, did jobs disappear, did Americans go 
>>hungry?
> 
> The downside was letting millions of people get away with breaking the
> law and rewarding them for doing so.


     The "new Americans" were still the laboring poor,
they still do the crap jobs Americans won't touch, the 
economy still benefits from them, AND we saved money 
by not deporting them. 

   




The fruits of our labor absurdity
 May 25, 2010

There was a moment when they first started 
calling this the “Great Recession,” in 2008, 
that Steve Appel thought this might be the 
time.

Americans might come back to working on the farm.

"It’s just common sense, with the depression and 
high unemployment and what not, that there ought 
to be local folks looking to come take some of 
these jobs," says Appel, 58, a wheat farmer in 
the Palouse in Eastern Washington.

Nope. It hasn’t happened. Farm jobs are going 
unfilled to such a degree that now a huge fruit 
orchard in Okanogan County, desperate for someone 
to pick cherries and apples this summer, has turned 
to flying in hundreds of workers from … Jamaica.

That’s right. From a Caribbean island more than 
3,000 miles away.

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/the-fruits-of-our-labor-
absurdity/
http://tinyurl.com/nuqlfxu

  
   

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#2120916

On Mon, 06 Jun 2016 08:02:42 -0500, Mitchell Holman
<noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
<XnsA61F52043A22noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:

>Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote in 
>news:jh4alb9djlj4c720b9n18a6n8vbuc6p3kr@4ax.com:
>
>> On Sun, 05 Jun 2016 21:28:59 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>> <noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
>> <XnsA61EDAB682400noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:
>> 
>>>Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote in 
>>>news:8276lbp0cevc1n5kjrkq4na9b4814uf3qs@4ax.com:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 04 Jun 2016 12:38:24 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>>>> <noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>> <XnsA61D80C187F35noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Americans will never stand for it. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> You might be surprised. We are close now with SS cards and driver's
>>>>>> licenses.  It is a necessity today.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    You don't need to produce an SSI card to 
>>>>>buy a roll of stamps or pay your water bill.
>>>>>Just try requiring it and see what happens. 
>>>> 
>>>> You need ID and/or your 'taxpayer ID"  (SSN) to open a bank account,
>>>> see a doctor, or apply for credit.  And usually to sign up for
>>>> utilities.
>>>
>>>
>>>     None of those require proof of citizenship. 
>>>Americans would not put up with dollar coin or 
>>>$2 bill, they are certainly not going to put up
>>>with proving their nationality wherever they go. 
>> 
>> They need a taxpayer ID, and if such and ID was required it would be
>> used.  Just as a drivers license is used now.
>> 
>> No ID, no activity whatever it is.
>> 
>
>
>   Americans will not stand for having to prove
>their nationality everytime they buy or sell. 

It would not be necessary or every transaction.  Basically the same
things that require ID now.   

>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Not many would last long enough to be interested in either 
>the 
>>>>>post
>>>>>>>>>>>> office or the DMV.  Especially if sending money out of the 
>>>>>country 
>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>>>>> any way required such ID.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>    
>>>>>>>>>>>   Corporations send billions of dollars out
>>>>>>>>>>>of the country every day. Why should people
>>>>>>>>>>>be barred from doing it. 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Corporations do it for business reasons.  This is a necessary 
>>>part 
>>>>>of
>>>>>>>>>> international trade and multi-national economic activity.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> This is not true for individuals, and frequently the sender is 
>>>here
>>>>>>>>>> illegally.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>    
>>>>>>>>>    If someone wants to send money to their relatives
>>>>>>>>>in Ireland or Japan - or Mexico - that is their option,
>>>>>>>>>no?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> As long as they are here legally and the amount should be limited 
>>>to
>>>>>>>> insure they are not acting as agents for others.  Records of such
>>>>>>>> activity should be kept.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Records are already being kept of money transfers. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> These transfers are the reason many illegals are here and should be
>>>>>> stopped on that basis alone.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    How do you stop people from sending money abroad?
>>>> 
>>>> Prevent the services such as Western Union from doing so, and stop
>>>> banks from allowing individuals to open accounts in other countries 
>or
>>>> making deposits to such accounts.
>>>> 
>>>> It would be easy to track and block any electronic transfers by
>>>> individuals out of the country.
>>>
>>>
>>>     If it was so easy it would have been long
>>>before now. Fact is money has to cross borders
>>>by the billions every minute. Demanding that 
>>>every sender prove their nationality is silly. 
>> 
>> Not really.  Computers can do more every day.
>> 
>> You might be amazed to know what is possible.
>
>
>      If it was possible it would have been done by now. 

There has been no requirement to do so.

>
>
>
>>>>>>>>>Alabama Illegal Immigrant Crackdown Destroys Farm Business
>>>>>>>>>July 2012
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On Sunday, the Associated Press reported worker shortages 
>>>>>>>>>have prompted some Alabama farmers who grow labor-intensive 
>>>>>>>>>produce to plant less, rather than have crops rot in the 
>>>>>>>>>fields again this year. Few locals will perform the grueling 
>>>>>>>>>work of picking crops, and farmers stuck in a agricultural 
>>>>>>>>>system built on illegal labor are struggling to find 
>>>>>>>>>replacements before their produce rots. 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Alabama’s situation is not unique. Georgia passed a similar 
>>>>>>>>>immigration law in 2011. When undocumented workers fled, 
>>>>>>>>>farmers lost around 40% of their workers and $140 million 
>>>>>>>>>worth of blueberries, melons, onions, and other crops due 
>>>>>>>>>to labor shortages. This year Georgia farmers again fear 
>>>>>>>>>they will be short on workers to pick the crops, and many 
>>>>>>>>>have scaled back production or stopped planting altogether.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>http://tinyurl.com/ckusuge
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> There will be an adjustment period.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     
>>>>>>>     Americans don't want adjustment periods,
>>>>>>>they want clean hotel rooms and fresh vegetables
>>>>>>>and mowed lawns and fixed potholes, and so far
>>>>>>>only illegals are willing to do those jobs. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> When illegals are gone another solution will be found.  It always 
>is.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     What solution is that?
>>>> 
>>>> Automation, and other labor sources.  Perhaps more legal immigration
>>>> if needed.
>>>
>>>
>>>      Is automation going to clean your hotel 
>>>room and patch your roof and mow your yard?
>> 
>> Who knows?  Robotics are expanding every day.  Even cars are going to
>> drive themselves.
>
>
>     No robot is going clean your hotel room or 
>change your bedban or fix your roof. We need 
>cheap labor. We have always needed cheap labor.

But not illegal labor.

>
>>>>>>>Illegal immigrants benefit the U.S. economy
>>>>>>>Aug 2014
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>According to the Pew Research Hispanic Trends 
>>>>>>>Project, there were 8.4 million unauthorized 
>>>>>>>immigrants employed in the U.S.; representing 
>>>>>>>5.2 percent of the U.S. labor force (an increase 
>>>>>>>from 3.8 percent in 2000). Their importance was 
>>>>>>>highlighted in a report by Texas Comptroller 
>>>>>>>Susan Combs that stated, “Without the undocumented 
>>>>>>>population, Texas’ work force would decrease by 
>>>>>>>6.3 percent” and Texas’ gross state product would 
>>>>>>>decrease by 2.1 percent.  Furthermore, certain 
>>>>>>>segments of the U.S. economy, like agriculture, 
>>>>>>>are entirely dependent upon illegal immigrants.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/203984-
>illegal-
>>>>>>>immigrants-benefit-the-us-economy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  "entirely dependent on illegal immigrants", indeed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Again I totally disagree.  We should not be dependent in any way 
>upon
>>>>>> illegal activity.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     Then we should do it the Reagan way and
>>>>>legalize them. 
>>>> 
>>>> I opposed that, knew it would not work (it didn't) and oppose it now.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Show us the downside to Reagan legalizing
>>>millions of immigrants. Did the stock market 
>>>crash, did jobs disappear, did Americans go 
>>>hungry?
>> 
>> The downside was letting millions of people get away with breaking the
>> law and rewarding them for doing so.
>
>
>     The "new Americans" were still the laboring poor,
>they still do the crap jobs Americans won't touch, the 
>economy still benefits from them, AND we saved money 
>by not deporting them. 

We would have saved more by preventing them from entering in the first
place.  And from staying here when their time ran out.

>
>The fruits of our labor absurdity
> May 25, 2010
>
>There was a moment when they first started 
>calling this the “Great Recession,” in 2008, 
>that Steve Appel thought this might be the 
>time.
>
>Americans might come back to working on the farm.
>
>"It’s just common sense, with the depression and 
>high unemployment and what not, that there ought 
>to be local folks looking to come take some of 
>these jobs," says Appel, 58, a wheat farmer in 
>the Palouse in Eastern Washington.
>
>Nope. It hasn’t happened. Farm jobs are going 
>unfilled to such a degree that now a huge fruit 
>orchard in Okanogan County, desperate for someone 
>to pick cherries and apples this summer, has turned 
>to flying in hundreds of workers from … Jamaica.
>
>That’s right. From a Caribbean island more than 
>3,000 miles away.
>
>http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/the-fruits-of-our-labor-
>absurdity/
>http://tinyurl.com/nuqlfxu
>
>  
>   

--
Some of the Republican positions I find disgusting and abhorrent.

Most of the Democratic positions I find terrifying, especially 
those proposed by His Imperial Majesty Emperor Ass.

Any day now I expect some liberal to demand a government 
guaranteed above average income for every person.

Every illegal alien is a criminal.
No amnesty or work permit under any name or for any reason.
Deportation upon identification as the only option.

If you must text and drive please kill yourself quickly
before you run into me.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#2121183

Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote in
news:a4fblb5vdh6s2ldj2q57s8596bq2flt6v3@4ax.com: 

> On Mon, 06 Jun 2016 08:02:42 -0500, Mitchell Holman
> <noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
> <XnsA61F52043A22noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:
> 
>>Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote in 
>>news:jh4alb9djlj4c720b9n18a6n8vbuc6p3kr@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Sun, 05 Jun 2016 21:28:59 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>>> <noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>> <XnsA61EDAB682400noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote in 
>>>>news:8276lbp0cevc1n5kjrkq4na9b4814uf3qs@4ax.com:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 04 Jun 2016 12:38:24 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>>>>> <noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>> <XnsA61D80C187F35noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     Americans will never stand for it. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> You might be surprised. We are close now with SS cards and
>>>>>>> driver's licenses.  It is a necessity today.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    You don't need to produce an SSI card to 
>>>>>>buy a roll of stamps or pay your water bill.
>>>>>>Just try requiring it and see what happens. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> You need ID and/or your 'taxpayer ID"  (SSN) to open a bank
>>>>> account, see a doctor, or apply for credit.  And usually to sign
>>>>> up for utilities.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     None of those require proof of citizenship. 
>>>>Americans would not put up with dollar coin or 
>>>>$2 bill, they are certainly not going to put up
>>>>with proving their nationality wherever they go. 
>>> 
>>> They need a taxpayer ID, and if such and ID was required it would be
>>> used.  Just as a drivers license is used now.
>>> 
>>> No ID, no activity whatever it is.
>>> 
>>
>>
>>   Americans will not stand for having to prove
>>their nationality everytime they buy or sell. 
> 
> It would not be necessary or every transaction.  Basically the same
> things that require ID now.   


     No one needs to prove citizenship to buy
a tolltag or buy stamps or get a library card.
Nor should they have to. 



>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not many would last long enough to be interested in either
>>the 
>>>>>>post
>>>>>>>>>>>>> office or the DMV.  Especially if sending money out of the
>>>>>>country 
>>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> any way required such ID.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>    
>>>>>>>>>>>>   Corporations send billions of dollars out
>>>>>>>>>>>>of the country every day. Why should people
>>>>>>>>>>>>be barred from doing it. 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Corporations do it for business reasons.  This is a
>>>>>>>>>>> necessary 
>>>>part 
>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>>>>> international trade and multi-national economic activity.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> This is not true for individuals, and frequently the sender
>>>>>>>>>>> is 
>>>>here
>>>>>>>>>>> illegally.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    
>>>>>>>>>>    If someone wants to send money to their relatives
>>>>>>>>>>in Ireland or Japan - or Mexico - that is their option,
>>>>>>>>>>no?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> As long as they are here legally and the amount should be
>>>>>>>>> limited 
>>>>to
>>>>>>>>> insure they are not acting as agents for others.  Records of
>>>>>>>>> such activity should be kept.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    Records are already being kept of money transfers. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> These transfers are the reason many illegals are here and should
>>>>>>> be stopped on that basis alone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    How do you stop people from sending money abroad?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Prevent the services such as Western Union from doing so, and stop
>>>>> banks from allowing individuals to open accounts in other
>>>>> countries 
>>or
>>>>> making deposits to such accounts.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It would be easy to track and block any electronic transfers by
>>>>> individuals out of the country.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     If it was so easy it would have been long
>>>>before now. Fact is money has to cross borders
>>>>by the billions every minute. Demanding that 
>>>>every sender prove their nationality is silly. 
>>> 
>>> Not really.  Computers can do more every day.
>>> 
>>> You might be amazed to know what is possible.
>>
>>
>>      If it was possible it would have been done by now. 
> 
> There has been no requirement to do so.


      Maybe we should deport illegal aliens. What a 
novel idea. 



Illegal immigrants employers to be prosecuted
http://tinyurl.com/274n7lx



ICE Criminal Prosecutions Continue to Rise Under Obama
http://trac.syr.edu/immigration/reports/216/



>>
>>>>>>>>>>Alabama Illegal Immigrant Crackdown Destroys Farm Business
>>>>>>>>>>July 2012
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On Sunday, the Associated Press reported worker shortages 
>>>>>>>>>>have prompted some Alabama farmers who grow labor-intensive 
>>>>>>>>>>produce to plant less, rather than have crops rot in the 
>>>>>>>>>>fields again this year. Few locals will perform the grueling 
>>>>>>>>>>work of picking crops, and farmers stuck in a agricultural 
>>>>>>>>>>system built on illegal labor are struggling to find 
>>>>>>>>>>replacements before their produce rots. 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Alabama’s situation is not unique. Georgia passed a similar 
>>>>>>>>>>immigration law in 2011. When undocumented workers fled, 
>>>>>>>>>>farmers lost around 40% of their workers and $140 million 
>>>>>>>>>>worth of blueberries, melons, onions, and other crops due 
>>>>>>>>>>to labor shortages. This year Georgia farmers again fear 
>>>>>>>>>>they will be short on workers to pick the crops, and many 
>>>>>>>>>>have scaled back production or stopped planting altogether.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>http://tinyurl.com/ckusuge
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> There will be an adjustment period.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     
>>>>>>>>     Americans don't want adjustment periods,
>>>>>>>>they want clean hotel rooms and fresh vegetables
>>>>>>>>and mowed lawns and fixed potholes, and so far
>>>>>>>>only illegals are willing to do those jobs. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> When illegals are gone another solution will be found.  It
>>>>>>> always 
>>is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     What solution is that?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Automation, and other labor sources.  Perhaps more legal
>>>>> immigration if needed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      Is automation going to clean your hotel 
>>>>room and patch your roof and mow your yard?
>>> 
>>> Who knows?  Robotics are expanding every day.  Even cars are going
>>> to drive themselves.
>>
>>
>>     No robot is going clean your hotel room or 
>>change your bedban or fix your roof. We need 
>>cheap labor. We have always needed cheap labor.
> 
> But not illegal labor.


     That is the only labor willing to do those jobs. 

     Why do you think crops rot in the fields when 
only Americans are allowed to harvest them?


>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     Show us the downside to Reagan legalizing
>>>>millions of immigrants. Did the stock market 
>>>>crash, did jobs disappear, did Americans go 
>>>>hungry?
>>> 
>>> The downside was letting millions of people get away with breaking
>>> the law and rewarding them for doing so.
>>
>>
>>     The "new Americans" were still the laboring poor,
>>they still do the crap jobs Americans won't touch, the 
>>economy still benefits from them, AND we saved money 
>>by not deporting them. 
> 
> We would have saved more by preventing them from entering in the first
> place. 


     By building a wall.

     A $16 million PER MILE border wall?


http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/09/this-is-what-trumps-border-wall-could-
cost-us.html

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#2121201

On Mon, 06 Jun 2016 21:10:43 -0500, Mitchell Holman
<noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
<XnsA61FD79E4A434noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:

>Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote in
>news:a4fblb5vdh6s2ldj2q57s8596bq2flt6v3@4ax.com: 
>
>> On Mon, 06 Jun 2016 08:02:42 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>> <noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
>> <XnsA61F52043A22noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:
>> 
>>>Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote in 
>>>news:jh4alb9djlj4c720b9n18a6n8vbuc6p3kr@4ax.com:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 05 Jun 2016 21:28:59 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>>>> <noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>> <XnsA61EDAB682400noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote in 
>>>>>news:8276lbp0cevc1n5kjrkq4na9b4814uf3qs@4ax.com:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 04 Jun 2016 12:38:24 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>>>>>> <noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>> <XnsA61D80C187F35noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     Americans will never stand for it. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> You might be surprised. We are close now with SS cards and
>>>>>>>> driver's licenses.  It is a necessity today.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    You don't need to produce an SSI card to 
>>>>>>>buy a roll of stamps or pay your water bill.
>>>>>>>Just try requiring it and see what happens. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> You need ID and/or your 'taxpayer ID"  (SSN) to open a bank
>>>>>> account, see a doctor, or apply for credit.  And usually to sign
>>>>>> up for utilities.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     None of those require proof of citizenship. 
>>>>>Americans would not put up with dollar coin or 
>>>>>$2 bill, they are certainly not going to put up
>>>>>with proving their nationality wherever they go. 
>>>> 
>>>> They need a taxpayer ID, and if such and ID was required it would be
>>>> used.  Just as a drivers license is used now.
>>>> 
>>>> No ID, no activity whatever it is.
>>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>>   Americans will not stand for having to prove
>>>their nationality everytime they buy or sell. 
>> 
>> It would not be necessary or every transaction.  Basically the same
>> things that require ID now.   
>
>
>     No one needs to prove citizenship to buy
>a tolltag or buy stamps or get a library card.
>Nor should they have to. 

They do to open a bank account, see a doctor, or get any kind of
credit.   Whether that should be required is sometimes a matter of
opinion and at other times due diligence

>
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not many would last long enough to be interested in either
>>>the 
>>>>>>>post
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> office or the DMV.  Especially if sending money out of the
>>>>>>>country 
>>>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any way required such ID.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>    
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   Corporations send billions of dollars out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>of the country every day. Why should people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>be barred from doing it. 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Corporations do it for business reasons.  This is a
>>>>>>>>>>>> necessary 
>>>>>part 
>>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>>>>>> international trade and multi-national economic activity.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> This is not true for individuals, and frequently the sender
>>>>>>>>>>>> is 
>>>>>here
>>>>>>>>>>>> illegally.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>    
>>>>>>>>>>>    If someone wants to send money to their relatives
>>>>>>>>>>>in Ireland or Japan - or Mexico - that is their option,
>>>>>>>>>>>no?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> As long as they are here legally and the amount should be
>>>>>>>>>> limited 
>>>>>to
>>>>>>>>>> insure they are not acting as agents for others.  Records of
>>>>>>>>>> such activity should be kept.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>    Records are already being kept of money transfers. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> These transfers are the reason many illegals are here and should
>>>>>>>> be stopped on that basis alone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    How do you stop people from sending money abroad?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Prevent the services such as Western Union from doing so, and stop
>>>>>> banks from allowing individuals to open accounts in other
>>>>>> countries 
>>>or
>>>>>> making deposits to such accounts.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It would be easy to track and block any electronic transfers by
>>>>>> individuals out of the country.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     If it was so easy it would have been long
>>>>>before now. Fact is money has to cross borders
>>>>>by the billions every minute. Demanding that 
>>>>>every sender prove their nationality is silly. 
>>>> 
>>>> Not really.  Computers can do more every day.
>>>> 
>>>> You might be amazed to know what is possible.
>>>
>>>
>>>      If it was possible it would have been done by now. 
>> 
>> There has been no requirement to do so.
>
>
>      Maybe we should deport illegal aliens. What a 
>novel idea. 

That's what I have been saying all along.

>
>
>Illegal immigrants employers to be prosecuted
>http://tinyurl.com/274n7lx
>
>
>
>ICE Criminal Prosecutions Continue to Rise Under Obama
>http://trac.syr.edu/immigration/reports/216/
>
>
>
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Alabama Illegal Immigrant Crackdown Destroys Farm Business
>>>>>>>>>>>July 2012
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>On Sunday, the Associated Press reported worker shortages 
>>>>>>>>>>>have prompted some Alabama farmers who grow labor-intensive 
>>>>>>>>>>>produce to plant less, rather than have crops rot in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>fields again this year. Few locals will perform the grueling 
>>>>>>>>>>>work of picking crops, and farmers stuck in a agricultural 
>>>>>>>>>>>system built on illegal labor are struggling to find 
>>>>>>>>>>>replacements before their produce rots. 
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Alabama’s situation is not unique. Georgia passed a similar 
>>>>>>>>>>>immigration law in 2011. When undocumented workers fled, 
>>>>>>>>>>>farmers lost around 40% of their workers and $140 million 
>>>>>>>>>>>worth of blueberries, melons, onions, and other crops due 
>>>>>>>>>>>to labor shortages. This year Georgia farmers again fear 
>>>>>>>>>>>they will be short on workers to pick the crops, and many 
>>>>>>>>>>>have scaled back production or stopped planting altogether.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>http://tinyurl.com/ckusuge
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> There will be an adjustment period.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     
>>>>>>>>>     Americans don't want adjustment periods,
>>>>>>>>>they want clean hotel rooms and fresh vegetables
>>>>>>>>>and mowed lawns and fixed potholes, and so far
>>>>>>>>>only illegals are willing to do those jobs. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> When illegals are gone another solution will be found.  It
>>>>>>>> always 
>>>is.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     What solution is that?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Automation, and other labor sources.  Perhaps more legal
>>>>>> immigration if needed.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>      Is automation going to clean your hotel 
>>>>>room and patch your roof and mow your yard?
>>>> 
>>>> Who knows?  Robotics are expanding every day.  Even cars are going
>>>> to drive themselves.
>>>
>>>
>>>     No robot is going clean your hotel room or 
>>>change your bedban or fix your roof. We need 
>>>cheap labor. We have always needed cheap labor.
>> 
>> But not illegal labor.
>
>
>     That is the only labor willing to do those jobs. 
>
>     Why do you think crops rot in the fields when 
>only Americans are allowed to harvest them?
>
>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     Show us the downside to Reagan legalizing
>>>>>millions of immigrants. Did the stock market 
>>>>>crash, did jobs disappear, did Americans go 
>>>>>hungry?
>>>> 
>>>> The downside was letting millions of people get away with breaking
>>>> the law and rewarding them for doing so.
>>>
>>>
>>>     The "new Americans" were still the laboring poor,
>>>they still do the crap jobs Americans won't touch, the 
>>>economy still benefits from them, AND we saved money 
>>>by not deporting them. 
>> 
>> We would have saved more by preventing them from entering in the first
>> place. 
>
>
>     By building a wall.
>
>     A $16 million PER MILE border wall?
>
>
>http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/09/this-is-what-trumps-border-wall-could-
>cost-us.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
Some of the Republican positions I find disgusting and abhorrent.

Most of the Democratic positions I find terrifying, especially 
those proposed by His Imperial Majesty Emperor Ass.

Any day now I expect some liberal to demand a government 
guaranteed above average income for every person.

Every illegal alien is a criminal.
No amnesty or work permit under any name or for any reason.
Deportation upon identification as the only option.

If you must text and drive please kill yourself quickly
before you run into me.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#2121658

Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote in 
news:fleclbplub89cp4umn76rvh3s6uub7m4r8@4ax.com:

> On Mon, 06 Jun 2016 21:10:43 -0500, Mitchell Holman
> <noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
> <XnsA61FD79E4A434noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:
> 
>>Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote in
>>news:a4fblb5vdh6s2ldj2q57s8596bq2flt6v3@4ax.com: 
>>
>>> On Mon, 06 Jun 2016 08:02:42 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>>> <noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>> <XnsA61F52043A22noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote in 
>>>>news:jh4alb9djlj4c720b9n18a6n8vbuc6p3kr@4ax.com:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 05 Jun 2016 21:28:59 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>>>>> <noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>> <XnsA61EDAB682400noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>>Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote in 
>>>>>>news:8276lbp0cevc1n5kjrkq4na9b4814uf3qs@4ax.com:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, 04 Jun 2016 12:38:24 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>>>>>>> <noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>> <XnsA61D80C187F35noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>     Americans will never stand for it. 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> You might be surprised. We are close now with SS cards and
>>>>>>>>> driver's licenses.  It is a necessity today.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    You don't need to produce an SSI card to 
>>>>>>>>buy a roll of stamps or pay your water bill.
>>>>>>>>Just try requiring it and see what happens. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> You need ID and/or your 'taxpayer ID"  (SSN) to open a bank
>>>>>>> account, see a doctor, or apply for credit.  And usually to sign
>>>>>>> up for utilities.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     None of those require proof of citizenship. 
>>>>>>Americans would not put up with dollar coin or 
>>>>>>$2 bill, they are certainly not going to put up
>>>>>>with proving their nationality wherever they go. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> They need a taxpayer ID, and if such and ID was required it would 
be
>>>>> used.  Just as a drivers license is used now.
>>>>> 
>>>>> No ID, no activity whatever it is.
>>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   Americans will not stand for having to prove
>>>>their nationality everytime they buy or sell. 
>>> 
>>> It would not be necessary or every transaction.  Basically the same
>>> things that require ID now.   
>>
>>
>>     No one needs to prove citizenship to buy
>>a tolltag or buy stamps or get a library card.
>>Nor should they have to. 
> 
> They do to open a bank account, see a doctor, or get any kind of
> credit. 


     No doctor requries citizenship proof 
before treating a patient. 



>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     What solution is that?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Automation, and other labor sources.  Perhaps more legal
>>>>>>> immigration if needed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Is automation going to clean your hotel 
>>>>>>room and patch your roof and mow your yard?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Who knows?  Robotics are expanding every day.  Even cars are going
>>>>> to drive themselves.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     No robot is going clean your hotel room or 
>>>>change your bedban or fix your roof. We need 
>>>>cheap labor. We have always needed cheap labor.
>>> 
>>> But not illegal labor.
>>
>>
>>     That is the only labor willing to do those jobs. 
>>
  
     Why do you think crops rot in the fields when 
  only Americans are allowed to harvest them?




>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Show us the downside to Reagan legalizing
>>>>>>millions of immigrants. Did the stock market 
>>>>>>crash, did jobs disappear, did Americans go 
>>>>>>hungry?
>>>>> 
>>>>> The downside was letting millions of people get away with breaking
>>>>> the law and rewarding them for doing so.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     The "new Americans" were still the laboring poor,
>>>>they still do the crap jobs Americans won't touch, the 
>>>>economy still benefits from them, AND we saved money 
>>>>by not deporting them. 
>>> 
>>> We would have saved more by preventing them from entering in the 
first
>>> place. 
>>
>>
     By building a wall.

     A $16 million PER MILE border wall?


http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/09/this-is-what-trumps-border-wall-could-
cost-us.html

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#2121660

On Tue, 07 Jun 2016 17:13:54 -0500, Mitchell Holman
<noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
<XnsA620AF77827CBnoemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:

>Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote in 
>news:fleclbplub89cp4umn76rvh3s6uub7m4r8@4ax.com:
>
>> On Mon, 06 Jun 2016 21:10:43 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>> <noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
>> <XnsA61FD79E4A434noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:
>> 
>>>Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote in
>>>news:a4fblb5vdh6s2ldj2q57s8596bq2flt6v3@4ax.com: 
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 06 Jun 2016 08:02:42 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>>>> <noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>> <XnsA61F52043A22noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote in 
>>>>>news:jh4alb9djlj4c720b9n18a6n8vbuc6p3kr@4ax.com:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 05 Jun 2016 21:28:59 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>>>>>> <noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>> <XnsA61EDAB682400noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote in 
>>>>>>>news:8276lbp0cevc1n5kjrkq4na9b4814uf3qs@4ax.com:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 04 Jun 2016 12:38:24 -0500, Mitchell Holman
>>>>>>>> <noemail@comcast.net> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>> <XnsA61D80C187F35noemailattnet@216.166.97.131> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>     Americans will never stand for it. 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> You might be surprised. We are close now with SS cards and
>>>>>>>>>> driver's licenses.  It is a necessity today.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>    You don't need to produce an SSI card to 
>>>>>>>>>buy a roll of stamps or pay your water bill.
>>>>>>>>>Just try requiring it and see what happens. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> You need ID and/or your 'taxpayer ID"  (SSN) to open a bank
>>>>>>>> account, see a doctor, or apply for credit.  And usually to sign
>>>>>>>> up for utilities.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     None of those require proof of citizenship. 
>>>>>>>Americans would not put up with dollar coin or 
>>>>>>>$2 bill, they are certainly not going to put up
>>>>>>>with proving their nationality wherever they go. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> They need a taxpayer ID, and if such and ID was required it would 
>be
>>>>>> used.  Just as a drivers license is used now.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> No ID, no activity whatever it is.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   Americans will not stand for having to prove
>>>>>their nationality everytime they buy or sell. 
>>>> 
>>>> It would not be necessary or every transaction.  Basically the same
>>>> things that require ID now.   
>>>
>>>
>>>     No one needs to prove citizenship to buy
>>>a tolltag or buy stamps or get a library card.
>>>Nor should they have to. 
>> 
>> They do to open a bank account, see a doctor, or get any kind of
>> credit. 
>
>
>     No doctor requries citizenship proof 
>before treating a patient. 

They require Medicare or Medicaid number if those plans are involved.
Including a copy of the document.

>
>
>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     What solution is that?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Automation, and other labor sources.  Perhaps more legal
>>>>>>>> immigration if needed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      Is automation going to clean your hotel 
>>>>>>>room and patch your roof and mow your yard?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Who knows?  Robotics are expanding every day.  Even cars are going
>>>>>> to drive themselves.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     No robot is going clean your hotel room or 
>>>>>change your bedban or fix your roof. We need 
>>>>>cheap labor. We have always needed cheap labor.
>>>> 
>>>> But not illegal labor.
>>>
>>>
>>>     That is the only labor willing to do those jobs. 
>>>
>  
>     Why do you think crops rot in the fields when 
>  only Americans are allowed to harvest them?

Hiring illegals is not a viable answer.

>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Show us the downside to Reagan legalizing
>>>>>>>millions of immigrants. Did the stock market 
>>>>>>>crash, did jobs disappear, did Americans go 
>>>>>>>hungry?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The downside was letting millions of people get away with breaking
>>>>>> the law and rewarding them for doing so.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     The "new Americans" were still the laboring poor,
>>>>>they still do the crap jobs Americans won't touch, the 
>>>>>economy still benefits from them, AND we saved money 
>>>>>by not deporting them. 
>>>> 
>>>> We would have saved more by preventing them from entering in the 
>first
>>>> place. 
>>>
>>>
>     By building a wall.
>
>     A $16 million PER MILE border wall?
>
>
>http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/09/this-is-what-trumps-border-wall-could-
>cost-us.html

If that's what it takes.  It can be done cheaper if the resolve is
there.  I doubt the Berlin Wall cost that much.

--
Some of the Republican positions I find disgusting and abhorrent.

Most of the Democratic positions I find terrifying, especially 
those proposed by His Imperial Majesty Emperor Ass.

Any day now I expect some liberal to demand a government 
guaranteed above average income for every person.

Every illegal alien is a criminal.
No amnesty or work permit under any name or for any reason.
Deportation upon identification as the only option.

If you must text and drive please kill yourself quickly
before you run into me.

[toc] | [prev] | [standalone]

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