Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #656328

Re: Sync two clocks

From	Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de>
Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity
Subject	Re: Sync two clocks
Date	2024-08-24 08:50 +0200
Message-ID	<lite4rF8oi1U5@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(6 earlier) <va26au$3c12c$8@dont-email.me> <DBY62RW1eKeJ1CBElubh-FukMnE@jntp> <va5cd7$3vdmg$1@dont-email.me> <lio63qFf36mU7@mid.individual.net> <va9iiu$rrrc$1@dont-email.me>

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Am Freitag000023, 23.08.2024 um 10:51 schrieb Mikko:
...
>>>> I do not claim it "now". This is what I have always said for at 
>>>> least 40 years.
>>>>
>>>> Now, yes, obviously I assume it.
>>>>
>>>> The value (tA'-tA) = 2AB/c is the same not only for A and B, but 
>>>> also for all the stationary points of the inertial frame of 
>>>> reference of A and B.
>>>>
>>>> Better, if I change frame of reference it will remain true, by 
>>>> invariance of the transverse speed of light in any frame of reference.
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand the value tB-tA (go) will vary for most observers 
>>>> in R (where A and B are stationary), as will the value tA'-tB (return).
>>>>
>>>> But you cannot understand this, because 1. You are stupid and 
>>>> because 2. because you are tied up with relativistic thoughts all 
>>>> learned, but false.
>>>>
>>>> R.H.
>>>
>>> Richard, read your watch NOW. Write down the time nn:nn:nn.
>>> The time nn:nn:nn is a proper time (read off a clock), it is
>>> invariant, not depending on frame of reference.
>>>
>>> Nobody can have another opinion of what time YOU read of YOUR watch.
>>>
>>> How is it possible to fail to understand this?
>>>
>>> If we have two stationary clocks in an inertial frame,
>>>  and clock A shows tA = t1 when it emits light,
>>>  and clock B shows tB = t1 + td when the light hits it,
>>>  and clock A shows tA'= t1 + 2⋅td when it is hit by the reflected light,
>>>
>>> then tA, tB, tA', t1 and td are all proper times which are frame
>>> independent (invariants) and "the same for all".
>>>
>>>  tB − tA = t'A − tB = td
>>>
>>> The transit time td is a frame independent invariant and
>>> the same in both directions, which means that the clocks according
>>> to Einstein's _definition_ are synchronous in the inertial frame.
>>
>> You introduced t_d or 'transit time' (aka 'delay'), while Einstein 
>> didn't use any of these terms.
> 
> Einstein used tB - tA and similar expressions. Nothing else needs be
> said about delays. The equation tB − tA = t'A − tB and the text that
> describes the situation and defines what tA, t'A and tB mean define
> clearly and unambiguously what simultaneity and synchronity mean.

But this has nothing to do with synchronicity, but with a process to 
turn remote clocks to the same time value.

Time is not equal to what clocks say, because clocks are measuring 
devices, which measure time, but do not determine, what the measured 
quantity is.

The process to synchronize clocks require technical means, which are 
here light signals:

The clock at some point A emmits a timing signal, which a remote clock 
receives a little time later, because such signals have finite speed.


Now it should be obvious, that the remote clock had to compensate this 
delay, because otherwise it would not show the time of the master clock, 
but an asynchronous value.

For uncertain reasons Einstein had not mentioned this requirement at 
all, even if transit time per se was actually mentionend.

But the necessary step was missing, that the remote station had to add 
the transit time to the received timing value.

No such such statement can be found in Einstein's paper, hence we are 
forced to beleive, that he didn't wanted to compensate the delay.



TH

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Sync two clocks  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-15 19:38 +0000
  Re: Sync two clocks Akaike Takashita <ab@abbe.jp> - 2024-08-15 20:09 +0000
  Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-16 12:47 +0200
    Re: Sync two clocks Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-16 12:56 +0200
      Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-16 13:05 +0200
        Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-16 13:29 +0200
        Re: Sync two clocks Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-16 14:05 +0200
          Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-16 14:08 +0200
            Re: Sync two clocks Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-16 14:15 +0200
              Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-16 14:24 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-16 14:32 +0200
          Re: Sync two clocks  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-16 12:35 +0000
        Re: Sync two clocks  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-16 12:31 +0000
          Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-16 14:37 +0200
            Re: Sync two clocks  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-16 12:51 +0000
      Re: Sync two clocks  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-16 12:27 +0000
    Re: Sync two clocks  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-16 12:24 +0000
      Re: Sync two clocks Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-08-17 11:26 +0300
        Re: Sync two clocks  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-17 08:56 +0000
          Re: Sync two clocks hitlong@yahoo.com (gharnagel) - 2024-08-17 13:19 +0000
            Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-17 15:35 +0200
          Re: Sync two clocks Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-08-18 15:05 +0300
        Re: Sync two clocks Schepkin Baiguloff <flnen@efd.ru> - 2024-08-17 11:10 +0000
      Re: Sync two clocks "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-08-19 22:33 +0200
        Re: Sync two clocks Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-19 23:13 +0200
        Re: Sync two clocks  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-19 23:15 +0000
          Re: Sync two clocks hitlong@yahoo.com (gharnagel) - 2024-08-19 23:33 +0000
            Re: Sync two clocks  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-19 23:39 +0000
            Re: Sync two clocks  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-19 23:41 +0000
            Re: Sync two clocks  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-20 00:01 +0000
            Re: Sync two clocks  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-20 00:35 +0000
              Re: Sync two clocks hitlong@yahoo.com (gharnagel) - 2024-08-20 02:26 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-20 02:56 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks hitlong@yahoo.com (gharnagel) - 2024-08-20 11:31 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-20 13:10 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-20 03:12 +0000
          Re: Sync two clocks Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-08-20 14:13 +0300
            Re: Sync two clocks  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-20 11:27 +0000
              Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-20 14:01 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-20 12:43 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-20 14:56 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-20 15:59 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks hitlong@yahoo.com (gharnagel) - 2024-08-20 13:02 +0000
              Re: Sync two clocks Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-08-22 11:07 +0300
                Re: Sync two clocks nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2024-08-22 11:02 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-22 12:11 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2024-08-22 10:57 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2024-08-22 11:09 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-08-22 20:20 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-22 20:26 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2024-08-22 19:12 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-08-23 13:23 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2024-08-23 11:45 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-08-23 15:21 +0300
                Re: Sync two clocks The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-23 08:03 -0700
                Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-23 17:05 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-23 18:16 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-08-23 20:39 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2024-08-23 11:54 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-08-23 21:03 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2024-08-23 11:57 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-23 16:04 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2024-08-23 16:52 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-08-23 22:42 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-08-24 13:57 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-08-23 21:45 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2024-08-23 21:08 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-23 21:21 -0700
                Re: Sync two clocks The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-25 09:36 -0700
                Re: Sync two clocks Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-25 19:41 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2024-08-26 09:41 -0700
                Re: Sync two clocks Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2024-08-23 12:09 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-08-23 21:15 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-23 14:28 +0200
            Re: Sync two clocks  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-20 14:45 +0000
              Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-20 17:02 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-20 15:28 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-20 17:32 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-20 16:18 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-20 18:22 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-20 18:38 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-20 18:42 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-20 19:46 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-21 09:51 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-21 11:07 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Damon Del bosque <qleb@ddqqled.es> - 2024-08-21 10:11 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks Fehmi Bezrukov <efbh@eror.ru> - 2024-08-20 18:58 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-21 00:59 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> - 2024-08-21 09:58 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-21 10:11 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks László Buzás <iz@stssb.hu> - 2024-08-21 08:33 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-08-22 14:24 +0300
                Re: Sync two clocks Harrison Leontarakis <niore@rol.gr> - 2024-08-22 14:00 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-23 16:10 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Darien Rorris <rrdoe@dio.gr> - 2024-08-23 23:08 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-24 07:52 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Hershel Fournier <nero@fs.refr> - 2024-08-24 20:04 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-08-24 11:06 +0300
                Re: Sync two clocks Badyaev Pavlinov <eviyip@ipl.ru> - 2024-08-20 16:41 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-08-22 11:08 +0300
              Re: Sync two clocks Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-08-22 10:59 +0300
          Re: Sync two clocks "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-08-20 15:08 +0200
            Re: Sync two clocks Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-20 16:01 +0200
              Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-20 16:03 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-20 16:39 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-20 16:42 +0200
        Re: Sync two clocks  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-19 23:25 +0000
          Re: Sync two clocks "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-08-20 15:34 +0200
            Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-20 15:39 +0200
              Re: Sync two clocks  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-20 15:12 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-20 17:17 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-08-21 20:42 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2024-08-21 20:20 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-08-22 11:18 +0300
                Re: Sync two clocks "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-08-22 12:28 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2024-08-22 10:52 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-22 13:49 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-22 14:19 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-08-22 14:49 +0300
                Re: Sync two clocks Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-22 14:21 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-22 14:23 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-22 14:28 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-22 14:45 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-08-22 20:30 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-08-22 09:02 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-22 13:11 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Yonny Bukowski <skyo@yobnwkyy.pl> - 2024-08-22 22:02 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-08-23 08:37 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Rodobaldo Koustoubos <oob@doko.gr> - 2024-08-23 23:16 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-08-23 08:32 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-23 15:49 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2024-08-23 21:52 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-08-23 11:51 +0300
                Re: Sync two clocks Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-08-24 08:50 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-08-24 11:02 +0300
                Re: Sync two clocks Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2024-08-24 12:23 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-08-25 08:55 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2024-08-25 10:35 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-08-25 13:06 +0300
                Re: Sync two clocks Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-25 12:49 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-25 09:24 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-08-26 08:13 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-26 12:46 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2024-08-26 11:10 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-26 13:15 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-08-23 07:41 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-23 07:59 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-23 15:41 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-23 15:57 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-23 15:59 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-23 16:27 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-23 16:29 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-23 18:15 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-23 18:19 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-23 19:06 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-08-24 08:25 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-24 08:46 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-08-23 11:55 +0300
                Re: Sync two clocks Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2024-08-23 11:30 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-08-23 15:16 +0300
                Re: Sync two clocks "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2024-08-24 12:09 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2024-08-24 11:47 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-25 09:44 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-08-25 09:07 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-08-25 13:15 +0300
                Re: Sync two clocks Maciej Wozniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2024-08-25 12:51 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2024-08-23 10:58 +0000
                Re: Sync two clocks Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-08-23 15:18 +0300
                Re: Sync two clocks Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-08-24 09:03 +0200
                Re: Sync two clocks Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-08-24 11:04 +0300
                Re: Sync two clocks Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-08-22 11:13 +0300
              Re: Sync two clocks Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2024-08-22 11:10 +0300
        Re: Sync two clocks Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2024-08-20 08:43 +0200
          Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-20 08:45 +0200
          Re: Sync two clocks  Richard Hachel   <r.hachel@jesauspu.fr> - 2024-08-20 09:55 +0000
        Re: Sync two clocks Hanoi Bagdasaroff <faa@fgs.ru> - 2024-08-20 15:33 +0000
          Re: Sync two clocks Python <python@invalid.org> - 2024-08-20 17:58 +0200
            Re: Sync two clocks Guadalupe Hankoev <ogpa@uauvv.ru> - 2024-08-20 16:17 +0000

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