Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #148398

Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95

From	"kshy" <kshy@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	alt.folklore.computers
Subject	Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95
Date	2015-07-18 06:27 +1000
Message-ID	<d0t6qbFhc80U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	<mo8qku$qq7$1@dont-email.me> <1464623289458775925.823526peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org> <mob4cj$42f$1@dont-email.me>

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"Stephen Sprunk" <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote in message 
news:mob4cj$42f$1@dont-email.me...
> On 16-Jul-15 16:49, Peter Flass wrote:
>> Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote:
>>> On 16-Jul-15 08:21, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>> There is a big difference between earned and unearned.
>>>
>>> Yes; the former is productive and the latter is parasitic.
>>>
>>> It is downright offensive for parasites to pay a lower tax rate
>>> than producers.  At minimum, the parasites should pay the same
>>> rate, and there is plenty of justification for them paying a
>>> _higher_ rate.
>>
>> That's where Marx got it wrong.
>
> I said several different things there, so which are you saying is in
> agreement with Marx and incorrect?

He said that in the next sentence.

>> You need labor _and_ capital (and raw materials) to  produce wealth.
>> One is no good without the others.

> Labor alone produces Wealth; Capital is _not_ required.

Even sillier and more pig ignorant than you usually manage.

Have fun explaining where the capital comes from
to build the factory for the labor to work in.

> Capital makes Labor _more_ productive,

In fact without the capital there is no factory or infrastructure
for the labor to use or to power the factory or to move the
goods produced in the factory to the customers who want
to buy them or the get the raw materials to the factory.

That's true in spades of the mines needed for the
raw materials and the electricity etc labor uses.

> and in return it extracts part of Labor's fruits
> as Rent. That is fair.  However, that doesn't
> mean Capital is itself producing anything,

It is when it produces the factory that labor
works in and the jobs in that factory.

> and it isn't justification for Capital to pay lower tax rates.

It is justification for tax breaks that encourage
capital to invest in the factories or infrastructure
where you want to enable labor to work.

> Land is where Labor works and what Labor transforms;

And very little of that is possible without capital.

Even someone who is producing an app at home needs
some capital for the hardware used to produce that app
and so should be allowed to claim the cost of that
hardware when his income is calculated for tax purposes.

> unlike Capital, it _is_ required.

Not necessarily, most obviously with automated factories
which are almost entirely capital that buys the automated
systems that are used to produce the goods. You don’t
even need labor to maintain the tools if you just replace
them when they fail. The most you need in minimal labor
to decide what will be built and to design it etc.

> Much of what you think of as Capital is actually Land,

Even sillier and more pig ignorant than you usually manage.

There is no land involved when you produce the app
at home and flog it using one of the app stores that
now completely dominate the retailing of apps.

> which is a major source of confusion.

You're the one completely confused.

> (Land is not a fruit of Labor,

It can be, most obviously with land clearing that is
needed to turn the land into land that is usable for
a particular purpose like agriculture or housing.

> so it cannot be Wealth,

Even sillier and more pig ignorant than you usually manage.

> and since Capital is a subset of Wealth,
> Land obviously cannot be Capital.)

Even sillier and more pig ignorant than you usually manage.

>> I do agree there should be one set of rates for all types of income.

> I don't necessarily agree that Labor and Capital should pay
> the _same_ tax rate, but I will agree that Capital should pay
> _at least_ the same tax rate (on Rent) as Labor.

You're wrong when it isn't possible to calculate
the real income with capital gains.

> But really, neither should pay taxes; the only
> thing we should tax is (monopoly on) Land.

Even sillier and more pig ignorant than you usually manage.

That would mean that those who earn by producing apps
in their own home and use the net to distribute the apps
and to work out what people need app wise would pay
no more tax than those who just veg out in front of the
TV instead of producing any wealth at all.

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Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-15 19:16 -0500
  Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-16 12:47 -0500
    Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-17 05:56 +1000
    Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-07-16 20:06 +0000
      Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2015-07-17 10:27 +0100
      Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-17 12:39 +0000
        Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-07-17 13:57 +0000
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-17 11:05 -0500
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-18 06:38 +1000
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-07-17 22:04 +0000
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-07-17 15:43 -0700
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-18 10:51 +1000
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-19 08:39 +1000
    Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-16 21:49 +0000
      Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-07-16 15:24 -0700
        Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-17 09:54 +1000
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-07-17 01:23 +0000
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-17 14:24 +1000
        Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-17 01:20 +0100
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-17 11:06 +1000
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Morten Reistad <first@last.name> - 2015-07-17 22:37 +0200
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-19 08:50 +1000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 07:07 +1000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Morten Reistad <first@last.navn> - 2015-07-19 23:58 +0200
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 08:52 +1000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 14:32 +1000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-20 11:45 +0100
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 20:48 +1000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-20 15:26 +0000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 greymausg <maus@mail.com> - 2015-07-20 15:51 +0000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Morten Reistad <first@last.name> - 2015-07-21 09:53 +0200
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 greymausg <maus@mail.com> - 2015-07-22 10:41 +0000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-22 16:02 +0000
      Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-17 09:50 +1000
      Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-07-17 07:29 -0700
        Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2015-07-17 07:39 -0700
        Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-17 10:19 -0500
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-18 16:08 +0100
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-07-18 12:28 -0500
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-18 13:07 -0500
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-18 13:13 -0500
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-19 07:52 +1000
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Morten Reistad <first@last.navn> - 2015-07-19 10:07 +0200
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-20 13:29 +0000
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-07-20 14:41 +0100
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-21 12:53 +0000
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2015-07-20 10:01 -0500
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-20 11:34 -0500
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-20 11:46 -0500
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-07-20 11:25 -0700
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-07-20 19:05 +0000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-21 08:06 +1000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-20 14:41 -0500
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-21 08:35 +1000
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-21 05:42 +1000
        Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-07-17 09:27 -0700
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-07-17 11:31 -0700
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-07-17 22:04 +0000
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-18 08:18 +1000
      Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-17 09:46 -0500
        Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-07-17 11:23 -0700
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-18 13:42 -0500
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-18 19:15 +0000
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-19 08:16 +1000
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 06:50 +1000
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-19 08:08 +1000
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-19 11:13 -0500
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 07:36 +1000
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 greymausg <maus@mail.com> - 2015-07-20 07:55 +0000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 18:06 +1000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Morten Reistad <first@last.navn> - 2015-07-21 09:43 +0200
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Lon <lon.stowell@comcast.net> - 2015-07-20 07:46 -0600
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2015-07-20 16:17 +0100
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 10:32 -0500
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 22:13 -0500
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-07-20 16:49 -0300
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 22:11 -0500
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 10:22 -0500
        Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-18 06:27 +1000
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Morten Reistad <first@last.name> - 2015-07-18 22:42 +0200
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 08:26 +1000
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Morten Reistad <first@last.navn> - 2015-07-20 13:35 +0200
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-07-20 14:58 +0000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-07-21 10:01 +0200
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-07-21 14:42 +0000
        Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-07-18 09:45 -0700
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-07-19 11:29 -0500
        Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-18 13:57 -0500
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-19 08:14 +1000
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-19 13:25 +0000
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 06:43 +1000
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 greymausg <maus@mail.com> - 2015-07-20 07:55 +0000
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 18:09 +1000
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-20 10:38 +0000
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-20 13:29 +0000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-21 05:44 +1000
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-20 10:55 -0500
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-07-20 08:28 -0700
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-20 12:29 -0500
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-07-20 11:35 -0700
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-20 14:11 -0500
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-07-21 07:45 -0700
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 22:07 -0500
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-07-20 08:29 -0700
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-07-20 10:41 -0500
        Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 greymausg <maus@mail.com> - 2015-07-18 19:59 +0000
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-19 13:25 +0000
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2015-07-19 11:25 -0500
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 06:28 +1000
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 greymausg <maus@mail.com> - 2015-07-20 07:55 +0000
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "kshy" <kshy@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 18:21 +1000
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-20 10:59 -0500
            Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-20 12:50 -0500
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-21 12:53 +0000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-07-21 08:49 -0500
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-21 10:50 -0500
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-22 12:20 +0000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-07-22 13:56 +0000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-23 12:22 +0000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-24 05:54 +1000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 sidd@situ.com (sidd) - 2015-07-22 14:31 -0400
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-23 12:22 +0000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-24 05:51 +1000
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-21 10:48 -0500
              Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-07-21 12:54 +0200
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2015-07-21 08:00 -0700
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-21 10:45 -0500
                Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-07-21 10:41 -0500
        Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-19 09:52 +1000
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 07:24 +1000
        Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-07-19 13:25 +0000
          Re: 1973--TI 8 digit electric calculator--$99.95 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-07-20 06:34 +1000

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