Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?

From	Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.devel
Subject	Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?
Date	2022-04-20 00:00 +0200
Message-ID	<Ee438-9RGC-5@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References	(2 earlier) <EdTAJ-9LrN-3@gated-at.bofh.it> <EdUn7-9LWC-7@gated-at.bofh.it> <EdVjb-9Mw7-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <EdZPQ-9Phv-5@gated-at.bofh.it> <Ee3JL-9Rzb-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization	The Eyrie

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Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> writes:
> Quoting Russ Allbery (2022-04-19 19:29:09)

>> We need some way to clearly label non-free firmware packages so that
>> you can apply whatever installation or upgrade policy locally that you
>> want to apply, but solution #5 provides that by keeping the non-free
>> firmware in a separate archive area (which apt calls "components") to
>> which you can apply different apt policy.

> The issue I have with option 5 is that non-free blobs are then enabled 
> by default.

I just re-read option 5 and I don't see where it says that.  My
understanding of the proposal is that the firmware would be on the image
and thus available to the installer.  That doesn't imply that it will be
automatically enabled, either in the installer or on the installed
system.  That could still be gated by a prompt.

In other words, rather than having to do what one does now and choose
between the free installer and the non-free installer, my understanding of
option #5 is that there would be one install image, but there could then
be a prompt asking you whether you want to install non-free firmware.  We
could even offer a few different options (with the caveat that options
tend to confuse users, so we may not want to add too many or gate them
behind an advanced mode):

1. Purely free installation.
2. Enable non-free firmware in the installer but don't put it on the
   installed system.  (Not sure how useful this is, but I could see
   needing non-free firmware to bootstrap from wifi but the running system
   may eventually not use the non-free firmware.)
3. Enable non-free firmware and install it on the system but pin it so
   that it's never upgraded by default.
4. Enable non-free firmware and enable normal upgrades, similar to adding
   the non-free archive area today but only adding the firmware archive
   area.

I think 1 and 4 are the most useful options, and I'm not sure how many
people really want 2 or 3, but if there are enough people who want them, I
don't see any technical barriers to adding them.

I feel professionally obligated to argue that Debian should, *by default*,
upgrade anything that it installs, since from a security standpoint that
is the least risky default configuration (with, as always, the caveat that
there are special cases with different security models for which this
default isn't appropriate).  But that doesn't rule out a prompt or
allowing a user to turn this off if they want to.

> I agree that we should make it easier for our users to choose to trust 
> black magic "stuff" that they need to enable their devices.

> I do not think that we should impose on our users to trust black magic
> by default, though.

I think this is a somewhat different question than whether we put the
firmware on the default installation media so that it's *available* if
users want it.

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org)              <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-19 02:30 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-19 08:40 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater@gmail.com> - 2022-04-19 10:00 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2022-04-19 10:30 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? parodper <parodper@disroot.org> - 2022-04-19 10:40 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 10:50 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-19 12:00 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 11:40 +0200
    Re: Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it Steven Robbins <steve@sumost.ca> - 2022-04-23 20:40 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-24 01:30 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2022-04-25 09:40 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Christian Kastner <ckk@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 12:00 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 12:10 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2022-04-19 12:50 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? intrigeri <intrigeri@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 13:40 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2022-04-19 14:40 +0200
          Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 14:50 +0200
            Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2022-04-19 16:20 +0200
            Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Tim Woodall <debiandevel@woodall.me.uk> - 2022-04-19 17:50 +0200
              Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 18:10 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Timothy M Butterworth <timothy.m.butterworth@gmail.com> - 2022-04-19 18:30 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2022-04-19 19:00 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-19 19:10 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 20:00 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2022-04-19 23:10 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-20 08:10 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 08:20 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Tim Woodall <debiandevel@woodall.me.uk> - 2022-04-19 19:00 +0200
          Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 19:30 +0200
            Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2022-04-19 23:40 +0200
              Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 00:00 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2022-04-20 11:10 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-20 18:20 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-20 18:30 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-20 18:50 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 20:00 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 02:10 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-21 15:50 +0200
                writing good GR ballots (Re: Firmware - what are we going to do  about it?) Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2022-04-22 12:00 +0200
              Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 00:30 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Christian Kastner <ckk@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 14:10 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 12:50 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 09:30 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 12:10 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2022-04-19 14:40 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 23:10 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2022-04-20 01:00 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-20 17:40 +0200
  Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 16:30 +0200
    Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2022-04-19 19:00 +0200
      Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 22:10 +0200
        Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 23:10 +0200
          Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Pirate Praveen <praveen@onenetbeyond.org> - 2022-04-20 09:30 +0200
            Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 09:50 +0200
              Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Pirate Praveen <praveen@onenetbeyond.org> - 2022-04-20 10:00 +0200
                Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 10:10 +0200
                Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-04-20 14:30 +0200
                Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 15:10 +0200
            Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-20 10:30 +0200
              Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Samuel Thibault <sthibault@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 16:30 +0200
              Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-20 16:40 +0200
        Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2022-04-19 23:10 +0200
      Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 20:20 +0200
        Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-21 20:30 +0200
          Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 21:20 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Diederik de Haas <didi.debian@cknow.org> - 2022-04-19 21:40 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 09:40 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 08:20 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Pirate Praveen <praveen@onenetbeyond.org> - 2022-04-20 09:50 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater@gmail.com> - 2022-04-20 12:10 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-04-20 14:40 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-20 17:50 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-04-20 14:40 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Samuel Thibault <sthibault@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 14:50 +0200
          Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-04-20 15:10 +0200
            Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Samuel Thibault <sthibault@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 15:20 +0200
            Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 15:40 +0200
            Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater@gmail.com> - 2022-04-20 17:00 +0200
              Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 18:40 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater@gmail.com> - 2022-04-20 20:00 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 21:20 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-21 16:00 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 19:20 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 12:50 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 22:10 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Russell Stuart <russell-debian@stuart.id.au> - 2022-04-20 13:40 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 14:40 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-20 18:00 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 21:30 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? nervuri <nervuri@disroot.org> - 2022-04-20 22:20 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 08:00 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan.bayindir@tubitak.gov.tr> - 2022-04-21 09:30 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-21 10:00 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 10:20 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-21 12:50 +0200
          Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 18:40 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 10:00 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 19:20 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2022-04-22 07:20 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-22 08:40 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2022-04-22 09:40 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2022-04-23 12:20 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 09:40 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Mattias Wadenstein <maswan@acc.umu.se> - 2022-04-21 11:30 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 11:50 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-21 11:40 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Moritz Mühlenhoff <jmm@inutil.org> - 2022-04-21 20:10 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Leandro Cunha <leandrocunha016@gmail.com> - 2022-04-22 00:30 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2022-04-22 11:20 +0200
      shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2022-04-23 12:30 +0200
        Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-23 14:00 +0200
          Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2022-04-26 16:10 +0200
            Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-26 17:00 +0200
        Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-23 19:30 +0200
          Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-24 04:40 +0200
          Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2022-04-26 16:20 +0200
            Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-26 18:40 +0200
            Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2022-04-26 21:10 +0200
              Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-27 00:10 +0200
                Re: shim-signed The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2022-04-27 00:40 +0200
                Re: shim-signed Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-28 18:20 +0200
            Re: shim-signed The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2022-04-27 00:40 +0200
              Re: shim-signed Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2022-04-28 06:30 +0200
              Re: shim-signed Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-28 18:30 +0200
        Re: shim-signed Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2022-04-24 09:00 +0200
          Re: shim-signed Hanno 'Rince' Wagner <wagner@debian.org> - 2022-04-24 09:20 +0200
            Re: shim-signed Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2022-04-28 06:30 +0200
              Re: shim-signed Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-28 18:30 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2022-04-22 11:50 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul van der Vlis <paul@vandervlis.nl> - 2022-04-23 15:30 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-23 16:10 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul van der Vlis <paul@vandervlis.nl> - 2022-04-23 23:00 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Iustin Pop <iustin@debian.org> - 2022-04-23 23:10 +0200
          Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2022-04-24 05:10 +0200
            Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-24 09:50 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Timothy M Butterworth <timothy.m.butterworth@gmail.com> - 2022-04-23 23:20 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-23 23:30 +0200
          Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul van der Vlis <paul@vandervlis.nl> - 2022-04-25 18:10 +0200
            Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-25 18:50 +0200
              Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-25 22:50 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-26 08:20 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-26 09:50 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-26 10:40 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-26 11:00 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-26 11:10 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-26 11:50 +0200
            Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hans <hans.ullrich@loop.de> - 2022-04-26 11:50 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Helmut Grohne <helmut@subdivi.de> - 2022-04-30 14:10 +0200

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