Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?

From	Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.devel
Subject	Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?
Date	2022-04-19 19:30 +0200
Message-ID	<EdZPQ-9Phv-5@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References	<EdJUJ-9Fwt-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <EdSOl-9KW7-3@gated-at.bofh.it> <EdTAJ-9LrN-3@gated-at.bofh.it> <EdUn7-9LWC-7@gated-at.bofh.it> <EdVjb-9Mw7-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization	The Eyrie

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Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> writes:

> Now, some may argue that I am describing a case for package pinning
> here, and that *might* be true but I don't know that yet - because the
> proposed change to the system does not exist yet so I cannot really know
> that yet.  Possibly the implementation will be so that I continuously
> need to check if some new non-free blobs was introduced and block those,
> instead of the current situation of not needing to do anything actively
> to keeping most possible risky "stuff" away from my systems.

I feel like Debian already offers multiple mechanisms to prevent
installation or updates of packages, both specific packages and packages
by suite, archive, etc.  I'm dubious that we need some additional
extra-special mechanism just for firmware, as opposed to documenting the
many and varied mechanisms we already support for pinning old packages,
disabling automated upgrades, and so forth.

We need some way to clearly label non-free firmware packages so that you
can apply whatever installation or upgrade policy locally that you want to
apply, but solution #5 provides that by keeping the non-free firmware in a
separate archive area (which apt calls "components") to which you can
apply different apt policy.

Given your problem description above where you want to manually review
each new non-free package, I suspect you will want to pin the non-free
firmware archive area to something like priority 1 (similar to
experimental) so that you can access those packages but they're not
otherwise installed or upgraded.  Another option would be priority 100,
which would give automatic upgrades but not new installs.

I'm assuming we'll continue to maintain the invariant that free packages
won't depend on non-free packages, so unless you install a non-free
metapackage, you presumably won't get new non-free firmware packages
without seeking them out.  We may want to install such a metapackage by
default when the non-free-firmware-enabled installer is used (leaving open
the question of whether that's the only installer or not), but you could
remove it, of course.  (I suspect you, like me and probably most other
Debian contributors, make pretty extensive modifications to the installed
package list after installing a new system, and have lists of packages
that you always add or always remove.)

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org)              <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-19 02:30 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-19 08:40 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater@gmail.com> - 2022-04-19 10:00 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2022-04-19 10:30 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? parodper <parodper@disroot.org> - 2022-04-19 10:40 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 10:50 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-19 12:00 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 11:40 +0200
    Re: Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it Steven Robbins <steve@sumost.ca> - 2022-04-23 20:40 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-24 01:30 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2022-04-25 09:40 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Christian Kastner <ckk@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 12:00 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 12:10 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2022-04-19 12:50 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? intrigeri <intrigeri@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 13:40 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2022-04-19 14:40 +0200
          Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 14:50 +0200
            Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2022-04-19 16:20 +0200
            Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Tim Woodall <debiandevel@woodall.me.uk> - 2022-04-19 17:50 +0200
              Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 18:10 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Timothy M Butterworth <timothy.m.butterworth@gmail.com> - 2022-04-19 18:30 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2022-04-19 19:00 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-19 19:10 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 20:00 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2022-04-19 23:10 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-20 08:10 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 08:20 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Tim Woodall <debiandevel@woodall.me.uk> - 2022-04-19 19:00 +0200
          Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 19:30 +0200
            Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2022-04-19 23:40 +0200
              Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 00:00 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2022-04-20 11:10 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-20 18:20 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-20 18:30 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-20 18:50 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 20:00 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 02:10 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-21 15:50 +0200
                writing good GR ballots (Re: Firmware - what are we going to do  about it?) Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2022-04-22 12:00 +0200
              Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 00:30 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Christian Kastner <ckk@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 14:10 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 12:50 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 09:30 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 12:10 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2022-04-19 14:40 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 23:10 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2022-04-20 01:00 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-20 17:40 +0200
  Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 16:30 +0200
    Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2022-04-19 19:00 +0200
      Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 22:10 +0200
        Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 23:10 +0200
          Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Pirate Praveen <praveen@onenetbeyond.org> - 2022-04-20 09:30 +0200
            Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 09:50 +0200
              Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Pirate Praveen <praveen@onenetbeyond.org> - 2022-04-20 10:00 +0200
                Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 10:10 +0200
                Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-04-20 14:30 +0200
                Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 15:10 +0200
            Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-20 10:30 +0200
              Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Samuel Thibault <sthibault@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 16:30 +0200
              Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-20 16:40 +0200
        Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2022-04-19 23:10 +0200
      Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 20:20 +0200
        Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-21 20:30 +0200
          Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 21:20 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Diederik de Haas <didi.debian@cknow.org> - 2022-04-19 21:40 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 09:40 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 08:20 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Pirate Praveen <praveen@onenetbeyond.org> - 2022-04-20 09:50 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater@gmail.com> - 2022-04-20 12:10 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-04-20 14:40 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-20 17:50 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-04-20 14:40 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Samuel Thibault <sthibault@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 14:50 +0200
          Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-04-20 15:10 +0200
            Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Samuel Thibault <sthibault@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 15:20 +0200
            Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 15:40 +0200
            Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater@gmail.com> - 2022-04-20 17:00 +0200
              Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 18:40 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater@gmail.com> - 2022-04-20 20:00 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 21:20 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-21 16:00 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 19:20 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 12:50 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 22:10 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Russell Stuart <russell-debian@stuart.id.au> - 2022-04-20 13:40 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 14:40 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-20 18:00 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 21:30 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? nervuri <nervuri@disroot.org> - 2022-04-20 22:20 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 08:00 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan.bayindir@tubitak.gov.tr> - 2022-04-21 09:30 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-21 10:00 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 10:20 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-21 12:50 +0200
          Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 18:40 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 10:00 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 19:20 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2022-04-22 07:20 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-22 08:40 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2022-04-22 09:40 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2022-04-23 12:20 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 09:40 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Mattias Wadenstein <maswan@acc.umu.se> - 2022-04-21 11:30 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 11:50 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-21 11:40 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Moritz Mühlenhoff <jmm@inutil.org> - 2022-04-21 20:10 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Leandro Cunha <leandrocunha016@gmail.com> - 2022-04-22 00:30 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2022-04-22 11:20 +0200
      shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2022-04-23 12:30 +0200
        Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-23 14:00 +0200
          Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2022-04-26 16:10 +0200
            Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-26 17:00 +0200
        Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-23 19:30 +0200
          Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-24 04:40 +0200
          Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2022-04-26 16:20 +0200
            Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-26 18:40 +0200
            Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2022-04-26 21:10 +0200
              Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-27 00:10 +0200
                Re: shim-signed The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2022-04-27 00:40 +0200
                Re: shim-signed Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-28 18:20 +0200
            Re: shim-signed The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2022-04-27 00:40 +0200
              Re: shim-signed Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2022-04-28 06:30 +0200
              Re: shim-signed Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-28 18:30 +0200
        Re: shim-signed Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2022-04-24 09:00 +0200
          Re: shim-signed Hanno 'Rince' Wagner <wagner@debian.org> - 2022-04-24 09:20 +0200
            Re: shim-signed Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2022-04-28 06:30 +0200
              Re: shim-signed Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-28 18:30 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2022-04-22 11:50 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul van der Vlis <paul@vandervlis.nl> - 2022-04-23 15:30 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-23 16:10 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul van der Vlis <paul@vandervlis.nl> - 2022-04-23 23:00 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Iustin Pop <iustin@debian.org> - 2022-04-23 23:10 +0200
          Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2022-04-24 05:10 +0200
            Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-24 09:50 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Timothy M Butterworth <timothy.m.butterworth@gmail.com> - 2022-04-23 23:20 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-23 23:30 +0200
          Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul van der Vlis <paul@vandervlis.nl> - 2022-04-25 18:10 +0200
            Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-25 18:50 +0200
              Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-25 22:50 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-26 08:20 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-26 09:50 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-26 10:40 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-26 11:00 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-26 11:10 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-26 11:50 +0200
            Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hans <hans.ullrich@loop.de> - 2022-04-26 11:50 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Helmut Grohne <helmut@subdivi.de> - 2022-04-30 14:10 +0200

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