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Groups > linux.debian.devel > #104184
| From | Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | linux.debian.devel |
| Subject | Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial |
| Date | 2022-04-19 16:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <EdX1D-9NA0-1@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink) |
| References | <EdJUJ-9Fwt-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| Organization | linux.* mail to news gateway |
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Steve> 3. We could stop pretending that the non-free images are
Steve> unofficial, and maybe move them alongside the normal free
Steve> images so they're published together. This would make them
Steve> easier to find for people that need them, but is likely to
Steve> cause users to question why we still make any images without
Steve> firmware if they're otherwise identical.
TL;DR: Because I think promoting discussion about free software is
valuable, because I think a subset of our users care about fully free
media, and because I think the archive split is unnecessary and divisive
I support this option.
Steve, I think I strongly prefer this option for a number of reasons:
First, the ideological questions are important to who we are.
I actually think having our users ask these questions can be valuable
provided that we can answer them in ways that are not confusing.
Some of our users care deeply about being able to get a free system, and
I think it's valuable to support them.
I remember a discussion with John Sullivan at DebConf. He was talking
how Debian didn't
do a great job of meeting the needs of freedom-focused users.
After I started talking to John about what that might look like; I
cannot remember how much of our conversation was public and how much was
on the hallway track.
I pointed out that Debian was unlikely to remove non-free firmware
support from the installer and asked what we could do to make things
better without making them worse for other users.
One valuable suggestion was to make sure users could easily select
freedom if that's what they wanted.
So I think a free installation image is important.
It's even useful for qemu, for people like Purism, and the like.
Choosing this approach avoids deciding how to split the archive.
I actually think that split will be divisive and since I think it is
unnecessary given the above I'd rather avoid it.
So How Could it Work
=====================
First, within the project, Debian remains 100% free.
We produce two images.
One is just Debian.
One is Debian plus other things.
I don't think that's the best way to market things to our users, but I
do think that's the best way for us to think about it internally.
Externally, I think the trick is to come up with labels to help our
users understand what is going on.
Things like
Debian Hardware Enablement
Debian with Hardware Support
Debian Plus
For the free image
Pure Debian
Debian Libre
Deb ian Building Block
I also think that we need to bite the bullet and explicitly say that for
most users, the non-free image is preferred.
We also need to make the non-free image significantly more prominent
than the free image.
I think we can have a link to a FAQ discussing the issues, but we need
to get to a place where what the average user finds is the non-free
image.
So, I do think we'll need a GR because we will never get consensus on
that.
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Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-20 18:30 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-20 18:50 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 20:00 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 02:10 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-21 15:50 +0200
writing good GR ballots (Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2022-04-22 12:00 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 00:30 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Christian Kastner <ckk@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 14:10 +0200
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Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 09:30 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 12:10 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2022-04-19 14:40 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 23:10 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2022-04-20 01:00 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-20 17:40 +0200
Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 16:30 +0200
Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2022-04-19 19:00 +0200
Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 22:10 +0200
Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 23:10 +0200
Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Pirate Praveen <praveen@onenetbeyond.org> - 2022-04-20 09:30 +0200
Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 09:50 +0200
Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Pirate Praveen <praveen@onenetbeyond.org> - 2022-04-20 10:00 +0200
Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 10:10 +0200
Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-04-20 14:30 +0200
Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 15:10 +0200
Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-20 10:30 +0200
Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Samuel Thibault <sthibault@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 16:30 +0200
Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-20 16:40 +0200
Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2022-04-19 23:10 +0200
Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 20:20 +0200
Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-21 20:30 +0200
Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 21:20 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Diederik de Haas <didi.debian@cknow.org> - 2022-04-19 21:40 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 09:40 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 08:20 +0200
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Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater@gmail.com> - 2022-04-20 12:10 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-04-20 14:40 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-20 17:50 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-04-20 14:40 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Samuel Thibault <sthibault@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 14:50 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-04-20 15:10 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Samuel Thibault <sthibault@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 15:20 +0200
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Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Russell Stuart <russell-debian@stuart.id.au> - 2022-04-20 13:40 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 14:40 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-20 18:00 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 21:30 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? nervuri <nervuri@disroot.org> - 2022-04-20 22:20 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 08:00 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan.bayindir@tubitak.gov.tr> - 2022-04-21 09:30 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-21 10:00 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 10:20 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-21 12:50 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 18:40 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 10:00 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 19:20 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2022-04-22 07:20 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-22 08:40 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2022-04-22 09:40 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2022-04-23 12:20 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 09:40 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Mattias Wadenstein <maswan@acc.umu.se> - 2022-04-21 11:30 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 11:50 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-21 11:40 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Moritz Mühlenhoff <jmm@inutil.org> - 2022-04-21 20:10 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Leandro Cunha <leandrocunha016@gmail.com> - 2022-04-22 00:30 +0200
Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2022-04-22 11:20 +0200
shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2022-04-23 12:30 +0200
Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-23 14:00 +0200
Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2022-04-26 16:10 +0200
Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-26 17:00 +0200
Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-23 19:30 +0200
Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-24 04:40 +0200
Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2022-04-26 16:20 +0200
Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-26 18:40 +0200
Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2022-04-26 21:10 +0200
Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-27 00:10 +0200
Re: shim-signed The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2022-04-27 00:40 +0200
Re: shim-signed Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-28 18:20 +0200
Re: shim-signed The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2022-04-27 00:40 +0200
Re: shim-signed Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2022-04-28 06:30 +0200
Re: shim-signed Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-28 18:30 +0200
Re: shim-signed Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2022-04-24 09:00 +0200
Re: shim-signed Hanno 'Rince' Wagner <wagner@debian.org> - 2022-04-24 09:20 +0200
Re: shim-signed Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2022-04-28 06:30 +0200
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Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Helmut Grohne <helmut@subdivi.de> - 2022-04-30 14:10 +0200
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