Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?

From	Helmut Grohne <helmut@subdivi.de>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.devel
Subject	Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?
Date	2022-04-30 14:10 +0200
Message-ID	<EhU5b-cdoY-5@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References	<EdJUJ-9Fwt-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization	linux.* mail to news gateway

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Hi Steve et al,

On Tue, Apr 19, 2022 at 01:27:46AM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> TL;DR: firmware support in Debian sucks, and we need to change this. See the
> "My preference, and rationale" Section below.

Thank you for the excellent write-up.

>  5. We could split out the non-free firmware packages into a new
>     non-free-firmware component in the archive, and allow a specific exception
>     only to allow inclusion of those packages on our official media. We would
>     then generate only one set of official media, including those non-free
>     firmware packages.

My perception is that we already have largely consensus on this option
despite a few vocal minorities disagreeing with it.

I think that the main disagreements fall into one of two categories:

 * Debian should provide an entirely free installation media.
 * The user should have a choice for whether to run/install non-free
   firmware.

A few people have spoken in favour of continuing the building of free
images. Can you give more intuition on how much extra cost (work) these
images add if the alternative is to only produce the ones with non-free
firmware? How about reducing the effort to test free images?

I imagine here that we kinda reverse our current presentation. Rather
than show the free ones and hide the non-free ones, we'd present the
ones with firmware as official installation media. I trust that those
users that really need the free ones, will be able to locate them
despite not being presented prominently.

If continuing the production of free images does not impose an undue
workload, I think we could increase the consensus for an option 5b (and
also produce hidden free images).

Regarding the choice, Russ and others mentioned that the presentation of
that choice is not encoded in the option. From a GR-pov, I think that's
the right way forward. However, we may discuss it separately.

The argument about making an informed choice seems rather convincing to
me. As such, I'd prefer for the default installation to do the
following:
 * Check whether any non-free firmware is being used by the installer.
   I'm not 100% sure whether this is possible with reasonable effort and
   precision, but an approximation might not be too bad. A first try
   could be: dmesg | grep "firmware: direct-loading firmware"
 * Add a prompt to the default installation that asks whether non-free
   firmware should be included in the installation. It should also
   indicate whether non-free firmware has already been used in the
   process of booting the installation media. Regardless of whether it
   has been used, I'd prefer the default answer to be "yes".
 * Possibly add a second prompt in case firmware has been used and the
   user said "no" to ask for confirmation as this outcome would be
   very unlikely.
 * The prompts should be preseedable. This one likely is easy.

I understand that much of what I'm proposing here puts extra load on the
installer team. That's why I'm interested in better understanding how
much extra work that'd be and whether it's worth.

My expectation is that these two adaptions would alleviate much of the
concern presented in this thread.

>From a practical side, I'd likely put option 5 (without the extra
changes requested here) somewhere close to the top for all the good
reasons given in this thread. Quite clearly, the default installation
medium should work and it kinda does not right now.

Helmut

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Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-19 02:30 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-19 08:40 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater@gmail.com> - 2022-04-19 10:00 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2022-04-19 10:30 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? parodper <parodper@disroot.org> - 2022-04-19 10:40 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 10:50 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-19 12:00 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 11:40 +0200
    Re: Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it Steven Robbins <steve@sumost.ca> - 2022-04-23 20:40 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-24 01:30 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2022-04-25 09:40 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Christian Kastner <ckk@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 12:00 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 12:10 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2022-04-19 12:50 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? intrigeri <intrigeri@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 13:40 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2022-04-19 14:40 +0200
          Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 14:50 +0200
            Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2022-04-19 16:20 +0200
            Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Tim Woodall <debiandevel@woodall.me.uk> - 2022-04-19 17:50 +0200
              Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 18:10 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Timothy M Butterworth <timothy.m.butterworth@gmail.com> - 2022-04-19 18:30 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2022-04-19 19:00 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-19 19:10 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 20:00 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2022-04-19 23:10 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-20 08:10 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 08:20 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Tim Woodall <debiandevel@woodall.me.uk> - 2022-04-19 19:00 +0200
          Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 19:30 +0200
            Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2022-04-19 23:40 +0200
              Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 00:00 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2022-04-20 11:10 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-20 18:20 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-20 18:30 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-20 18:50 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 20:00 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 02:10 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-21 15:50 +0200
                writing good GR ballots (Re: Firmware - what are we going to do  about it?) Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2022-04-22 12:00 +0200
              Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 00:30 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Christian Kastner <ckk@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 14:10 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 12:50 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 09:30 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 12:10 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2022-04-19 14:40 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 23:10 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2022-04-20 01:00 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-20 17:40 +0200
  Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 16:30 +0200
    Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2022-04-19 19:00 +0200
      Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 22:10 +0200
        Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2022-04-19 23:10 +0200
          Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Pirate Praveen <praveen@onenetbeyond.org> - 2022-04-20 09:30 +0200
            Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 09:50 +0200
              Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Pirate Praveen <praveen@onenetbeyond.org> - 2022-04-20 10:00 +0200
                Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 10:10 +0200
                Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-04-20 14:30 +0200
                Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 15:10 +0200
            Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-20 10:30 +0200
              Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Samuel Thibault <sthibault@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 16:30 +0200
              Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-20 16:40 +0200
        Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2022-04-19 23:10 +0200
      Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 20:20 +0200
        Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-21 20:30 +0200
          Re: Keep both images but stop pretending no-free is unofficial Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 21:20 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Diederik de Haas <didi.debian@cknow.org> - 2022-04-19 21:40 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 09:40 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 08:20 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Pirate Praveen <praveen@onenetbeyond.org> - 2022-04-20 09:50 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater@gmail.com> - 2022-04-20 12:10 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-04-20 14:40 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-20 17:50 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-04-20 14:40 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Samuel Thibault <sthibault@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 14:50 +0200
          Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2022-04-20 15:10 +0200
            Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Samuel Thibault <sthibault@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 15:20 +0200
            Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 15:40 +0200
            Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater@gmail.com> - 2022-04-20 17:00 +0200
              Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 18:40 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater@gmail.com> - 2022-04-20 20:00 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 21:20 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-21 16:00 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 19:20 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 12:50 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 22:10 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Russell Stuart <russell-debian@stuart.id.au> - 2022-04-20 13:40 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 14:40 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-20 18:00 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2022-04-20 21:30 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? nervuri <nervuri@disroot.org> - 2022-04-20 22:20 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 08:00 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan.bayindir@tubitak.gov.tr> - 2022-04-21 09:30 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-21 10:00 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 10:20 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-21 12:50 +0200
          Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 18:40 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 10:00 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 19:20 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2022-04-22 07:20 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-22 08:40 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2022-04-22 09:40 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2022-04-23 12:20 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 09:40 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Mattias Wadenstein <maswan@acc.umu.se> - 2022-04-21 11:30 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-21 11:50 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-21 11:40 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Moritz Mühlenhoff <jmm@inutil.org> - 2022-04-21 20:10 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Leandro Cunha <leandrocunha016@gmail.com> - 2022-04-22 00:30 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2022-04-22 11:20 +0200
      shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2022-04-23 12:30 +0200
        Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-23 14:00 +0200
          Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2022-04-26 16:10 +0200
            Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-26 17:00 +0200
        Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-23 19:30 +0200
          Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-24 04:40 +0200
          Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2022-04-26 16:20 +0200
            Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-26 18:40 +0200
            Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2022-04-26 21:10 +0200
              Re: shim-signed (was: Firmware - what are we going to do about it?) Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> - 2022-04-27 00:10 +0200
                Re: shim-signed The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2022-04-27 00:40 +0200
                Re: shim-signed Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-28 18:20 +0200
            Re: shim-signed The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2022-04-27 00:40 +0200
              Re: shim-signed Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2022-04-28 06:30 +0200
              Re: shim-signed Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-28 18:30 +0200
        Re: shim-signed Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2022-04-24 09:00 +0200
          Re: shim-signed Hanno 'Rince' Wagner <wagner@debian.org> - 2022-04-24 09:20 +0200
            Re: shim-signed Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> - 2022-04-28 06:30 +0200
              Re: shim-signed Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-04-28 18:30 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2022-04-22 11:50 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul van der Vlis <paul@vandervlis.nl> - 2022-04-23 15:30 +0200
    Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-23 16:10 +0200
      Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul van der Vlis <paul@vandervlis.nl> - 2022-04-23 23:00 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Iustin Pop <iustin@debian.org> - 2022-04-23 23:10 +0200
          Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2022-04-24 05:10 +0200
            Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-24 09:50 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Timothy M Butterworth <timothy.m.butterworth@gmail.com> - 2022-04-23 23:20 +0200
        Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-23 23:30 +0200
          Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Paul van der Vlis <paul@vandervlis.nl> - 2022-04-25 18:10 +0200
            Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-25 18:50 +0200
              Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-25 22:50 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-26 08:20 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-26 09:50 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-04-26 10:40 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-26 11:00 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2022-04-26 11:10 +0200
                Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2022-04-26 11:50 +0200
            Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Hans <hans.ullrich@loop.de> - 2022-04-26 11:50 +0200
  Re: Firmware - what are we going to do about it? Helmut Grohne <helmut@subdivi.de> - 2022-04-30 14:10 +0200

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