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Groups > sci.electronics.design > #732690 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2025-04-29 13:24 +0100 |
| Last post | 2025-05-09 21:35 +1000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 275 — 24 participants |
Back to article view | Back to sci.electronics.design
Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-04-29 13:24 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-04-30 00:42 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-04-29 16:07 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-04-29 10:52 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-04-29 20:32 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-04-29 13:43 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-04-29 17:07 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-04-29 17:38 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-04-30 09:31 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2025-04-30 08:45 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-04-30 04:29 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-04-30 09:20 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-04-30 02:57 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-01 10:54 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-01 11:28 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-01 03:55 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-01 06:56 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2025-05-01 19:15 +0000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-01 15:29 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-01 08:03 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-01 18:25 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-01 13:49 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-01 03:51 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-01 23:28 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-01 15:16 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-02 02:54 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-01 18:37 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-02 12:01 -0400
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> - 2025-05-02 00:35 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-01 16:38 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-02 02:56 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-01 18:40 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-02 23:20 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-02 16:05 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2025-05-02 14:59 +0300
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> - 2025-04-30 11:18 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> - 2025-05-03 11:20 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-04-30 16:34 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2025-05-01 10:36 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-04-30 19:20 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-01 11:04 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-01 12:47 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-01 21:50 +0000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-01 11:24 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-01 13:06 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> - 2025-05-01 11:37 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-02 07:45 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-03 00:53 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-02 17:49 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-02 16:20 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-03 14:01 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2025-05-03 16:11 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2025-05-02 22:50 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-02 07:43 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-03 00:56 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-02 17:49 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-02 13:41 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-02 15:40 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-03 14:19 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-03 14:10 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-05-08 00:59 +0000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void> - 2025-05-01 15:21 +0000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-04 02:34 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Lasse Langwadt <llc@fonz.dk> - 2025-04-29 17:48 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-04-29 09:03 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-04-30 16:49 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-04-30 16:41 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-04-30 10:59 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-30 12:41 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-04-30 12:08 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> - 2025-04-30 11:25 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-04-30 22:34 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-04-30 21:53 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-04-30 16:05 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-09 04:33 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> - 2025-04-30 14:11 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-01 21:42 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-04-30 11:47 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-01 15:07 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-01 21:48 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-01 23:37 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-01 17:21 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-02 03:41 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-02 11:03 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-02 21:50 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-03 14:24 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-03 08:12 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-04 03:20 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-03 19:23 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-03 11:30 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-03 21:17 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-03 13:39 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-05 20:36 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-04 15:57 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-04 14:34 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-04 13:20 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-04 22:55 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-04 19:50 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-05 17:39 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-05 13:47 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-05 13:45 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-05 06:58 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-05 17:35 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-06 04:47 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-05 20:04 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-06 16:32 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-06 08:13 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-08 02:30 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-07 17:48 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-08 15:54 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-05 12:27 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-05 23:35 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-05 19:40 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-06 10:25 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-06 12:26 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-06 13:27 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-06 18:56 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-06 14:52 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-07 13:04 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-07 05:09 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-07 14:30 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-07 06:17 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-07 22:55 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain John R Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> - 2025-05-07 22:04 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-07 16:01 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-08 11:57 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-08 04:49 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-08 13:43 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-08 14:05 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-08 13:43 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-08 15:08 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-08 17:19 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-08 20:39 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-09 09:23 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-09 13:20 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> - 2025-05-08 12:51 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-08 14:18 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-09 09:21 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-09 03:38 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-09 13:24 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-09 05:52 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-09 07:55 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-09 07:35 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-08 15:05 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-08 14:32 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-09 14:07 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-09 14:32 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-10 03:19 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-09 19:37 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-10 16:04 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-10 09:13 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-11 15:04 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-11 06:46 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-11 21:25 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-12 11:07 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-08 14:54 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-08 14:57 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-09 14:18 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-09 12:22 -0400
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-09 23:28 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-10 08:03 -0400
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-10 16:05 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-10 14:47 -0400
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void> - 2025-05-09 22:50 +0000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-09 14:41 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-10 03:26 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-09 20:52 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-11 15:21 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-08 14:44 +0200
UPS [Was:Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-08 15:41 +0200
Re: UPS [Was:Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain] Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-08 15:18 +0100
Re: UPS [Was:Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-08 22:23 +0200
Re: UPS [Was:Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain] Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-08 17:13 -0700
Re: UPS [Was:Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-09 12:29 +0200
Re: UPS [Was:Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain] Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-09 05:21 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-08 15:38 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-09 12:29 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-09 04:05 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-09 14:20 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-09 14:44 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-06 14:23 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-05 23:31 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-05 18:49 -0400
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-06 02:18 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-06 10:42 -0400
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-05 17:37 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-05 19:47 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-06 12:32 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-04 15:42 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-03 23:55 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-03 16:53 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-04 02:27 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-04 09:49 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-04 17:23 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-05 02:24 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-04 19:34 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-04 08:35 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-04 19:36 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-04 13:24 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-04 16:00 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-04 10:12 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-01 21:50 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-02 11:17 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-02 23:24 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-02 22:58 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-02 16:10 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-03 14:37 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-03 10:47 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-03 23:59 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-03 15:15 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-04 02:29 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-03 21:49 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-04 16:15 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-04 14:41 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-04 10:23 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-04 16:38 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Lasse Langwadt <llc@fonz.dk> - 2025-04-30 22:16 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-01 15:18 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-04-29 07:57 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain bitrex <user@example.net> - 2025-04-29 11:27 -0400
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-04-29 08:59 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-04-30 17:05 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2025-04-30 11:41 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-04-30 22:37 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-04-30 21:50 +0800
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-01 01:05 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-04-30 11:51 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-01 15:33 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Tom Del Rosso" <fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> - 2025-05-09 02:16 -0400
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-09 21:25 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-04-30 16:53 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain brian <nospam@b-howie.co.uk> - 2025-04-29 17:24 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain brian <nospam@b-howie.co.uk> - 2025-04-30 07:09 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-29 21:13 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-04-29 12:26 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-29 21:51 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-04-29 13:39 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain bitrex <user@example.net> - 2025-04-29 17:05 -0400
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-04-29 15:41 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain bitrex <user@example.net> - 2025-04-29 18:55 -0400
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-04-29 17:00 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-04-30 17:32 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-01 21:54 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain bitrex <user@example.net> - 2025-04-29 17:07 -0400
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-04-30 17:19 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-04-29 19:57 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-29 23:33 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-04-30 19:55 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-04-30 12:33 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-04-30 16:00 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-01 22:00 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-04-30 17:28 -0400
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-01 15:24 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-01 10:27 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-01 07:06 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-01 15:48 +0100
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-01 08:40 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-05 02:10 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-02 03:17 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-01 11:38 -0400
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-02 03:32 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-01 22:12 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-01 19:38 -0400
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-02 18:04 +1000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-05-01 22:19 +0000
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-01 19:21 -0400
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-04-30 09:08 -0700
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-01 15:29 +1000
Re: Gran Apagón - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-01 22:13 +0200
Re: Gran Apagón - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-02 11:28 +0100
Re: Gran Apagón - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-02 23:30 +0200
Re: Gran Apagón - Electricity (not) in Spain Miguel Gimenez <me@privacy.net> - 2025-05-08 14:31 +0200
Re: Gran Apagón - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-08 15:45 +0200
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Tom Del Rosso" <fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> - 2025-05-09 02:20 -0400
Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-09 21:35 +1000
Page 8 of 14 — ← Prev page 1 … 6 7 [8] 9 10 … 14 Next page →
| From | Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-09 05:52 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <vvktqi$2q20b$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #733126 |
On 5/9/2025 4:24 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> We "store" water in the ground. The hope being that we can extract >> it when the time comes. >> >> There have been some foreign companies exploiting our water supplies >> (deep wells to farm and then export the farmed products). I htink >> there is some action being taken to confound this practice. > > Yesterday I heard on the news that most cities in the USA are sinking down, due > to water extraction from wells. I don't know about "most cities"; here, we rely on ground water pumped FROM wells. But, other places I've lived had surface reservoirs to draw from, filled "from above" (precipitation) "Subsidence" is a problem as buildings tend to crack as they settle. And, once that portion of an aquifer collapses, there's no real way to "refill" it. So, you lose capacity. I suspect most parts of the country will start having water problems. It will likely be hardest on those places who have been gluttonous with their water usage. Great Salt Lake is apparently a foul waste puddle, now. Folks in Utah have tended to feel water was theirs to use without concerns for conservation. <https://www.sciencenews.org/article/great-salt-lake-shrinking-utah-drought> Note before and after pics about 1/3 of the way through the article. "Daddy, my teacher said there used to be a LAKE here..."
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| From | john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-09 07:55 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <a65s1k9fj791u3p5kb88bl9fvpfdav83fl@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #733126 |
On Fri, 9 May 2025 13:24:51 +0200, "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: >On 2025-05-09 12:38, Don Y wrote: >> On 5/9/2025 1:21 AM, Martin Brown wrote: >>> On 08/05/2025 22:18, Don Y wrote: >>>> On 5/8/2025 12:51 PM, KevinJ93 wrote: >>>>> When the coal miner's strike power usage reductions were in effect I >>>>> was working at Marconi-Elliott in Borehamwood. We were not allowed >>>>> to have the lights or heating on but it was permitted to use test >>>>> equipment so we would huddle around our Tektronix 547 scopes to keep >>>>> warm, they used to put out a lot of heat. >>>> >>>> The only "utility" that I can recall being VOLUNTARILY rationed was >>>> water, >>>> back east, during a period of drought. We were "strongly discouragd" >>>> from watering lawns, washing cars (car washes are far more efficient >>>> at this as they recycle the water), etc. >>> >>> We also live on the watershed for that. Just far enough north to be on >>> the copious Northumbrian water supply (intended for all the now >>> defunct steelworks) but with sewage outflow going downhill to >>> Yorkshire Water. >> >> We always had ample water -- so it was *common* to use a hose as a broom. >> Or, to water a lawn, wash a car in the driveway, etc. >> >> The "drought restrictions" were a bit of a shock to people as everyone >> always thought water was limitless. Driving around town there were >> many reservoirs -- some in places where only a single lane road would >> separate you from the reservoir to your left vs. the one on your right. >> >>> It has great advantages - Yorkshire Water has many leaks and not >>> enough reservoirs so hose pipe bans are almost inevitable every >>> summer. One particularly bad year they were moving drinking water in >>> tankers from Northumberland Water to Yorkshire to maintain supply. >>> When it gets really serious they have had to resort to stand pipes in >>> the street. >>> >>> Looks like this year will be a bumper year for drought orders as there >>> hasn't been any significant rain here for nearly a month now and we >>> have have broken record temperatures for May already. Reservoirs in >>> sensitive areas are at abnormally low levels for this time of year. >> >> We've (here) been in a state of drought for ~25 years. And, that's >> with an normal annual precipitation of ~11 inches. The shift in mindset >> is astonishing -- to go from ~50 in/yr to less than a quarter of that. >> And, for it to be confined to just 2.5 months out of the year... >> >>>> Here, of course (desert southwest), peer pressure and threats of fines >>>> tend to keep folks inline. >>>> >>>> The idea of using a garden hose to "sweep" debris off your >>>> driveway or sidewalk would be met with a gasp and a glare. >>> >>> Fair enough. Where I live the water supply is the huge Kielder >>> reservoir built to service a once thriving major steel industry on >>> Teesside. Even if it didn't rain at all for a year we would still be >>> on supply. >>> >>> Next village is on Yorkshire and often get hosepipe bans in summer. >> >> We "store" water in the ground. The hope being that we can extract >> it when the time comes. >> >> There have been some foreign companies exploiting our water supplies >> (deep wells to farm and then export the farmed products). I htink >> there is some action being taken to confound this practice. >> > >Yesterday I heard on the news that most cities in the USA are sinking >down, due to water extraction from wells. Not most cities, but many. Some places that have lots of water are sinking because pumps kick in when there's lots of rain. And because most of the surfaces have been paved over. New Orleans is on the Mississippi river but is sinking, because levees now keep the river out of town and pumps export the rainwater. Usually. (Many of the older pumping stations ran on 25 Hz power, and shut down in a hurricane.) The California Central Valley is sinking from groundwater extraction, most by farms. It's crazy to grow nuts and rice and wheat, export crops, in what is legally a desert. It's getting harder and harder to sink a well deep enough to hit actual water.
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| From | john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-09 07:35 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <984s1k5q5ee0f52o4feteag29vfbra013v@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #733099 |
On Thu, 8 May 2025 14:18:47 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote: >On 5/8/2025 12:51 PM, KevinJ93 wrote: >> When the coal miner's strike power usage reductions were in effect I was >> working at Marconi-Elliott in Borehamwood. We were not allowed to have the >> lights or heating on but it was permitted to use test equipment so we would >> huddle around our Tektronix 547 scopes to keep warm, they used to put out a lot >> of heat. > >The only "utility" that I can recall being VOLUNTARILY rationed was water, >back east, during a period of drought. We were "strongly discouragd" >from watering lawns, washing cars (car washes are far more efficient >at this as they recycle the water), etc. > >Here, of course (desert southwest), peer pressure and threats of fines >tend to keep folks inline. > >The idea of using a garden hose to "sweep" debris off your >driveway or sidewalk would be met with a gasp and a glare. > Here in San Francisco you can do that, or wash a car, but the hose must have an automatic shutoff nozzle on the end. Of course nobody enforces that. We rarely have lawns (real living ones) here, and no pools that I know of, which helps. I hated mowing lawns. What stupid things.
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-08 15:05 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <2pmuelx7qq.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #733062 |
On 2025-05-08 13:49, Don Y wrote: ... >> I can only recall one UK powercut in that league in the past half >> century (August 9 2019). Of course it directly affected the densely >> populated affluent regions London and the South East. Therefore it was >> much more newsworthy than if it had affected the remote Scottish >> Highlands where weather induced powercuts are quite common. > > I don't think I've ever (regardless of where I've lived) experienced > a deliberate power cut. A drunk may take out a telephone pole or > a branch may fall on some high tension wires but no one has ever > said "sorry, we're turning the lights out" (for whatever reason) Not the same, but past Monday someone stole the signalling cable in the high speed railway to Andalussia, leaving the entire line OOS. I heard that trains were authorized to run at 40 Km/h, so that they could see the other train in time and tail it. Not sure it worked. The authorities talked of sabotage. The price of the cable when new is not even a thousand euros, but the damage to thousands of people is huge. ... >>>> I'm considering replacing the UPS at my router. Some UPS "destroy" >>>> the battery too fast. >>> >>> Yes. Rather than spend time investigating it, I've taken the approach >>> of just rescuing batteries to replace those that have been "cooked". >> >> That is a feature of UPS design that specsmanship to get the longest >> run time for the sales datasheet means that they cook their batteries. >> I have seen them swell to the point of bursting inside a UPS. Thick >> rubber gloves needed to remove the remains. Support metalwork was a >> real corroded rusty mess but electronics above it remained OK. > > Yup. They have a rationalization, though -- they are trying to provide the > highest availability. Else, how much availability do you sacrifice to > maximize battery life? Do you then start specifying battery life as a > primary selection criteria? > > [Most SOHO users buy a UPS -- thinking they are being "professional" -- and > then discard it when the battery needs replacing and they discover the > costs charged by the UPS manufacturer -- or local "battery stores"] 25€. A 9Ah item, high discharge rate. > >>> I suspect the problem (rationalized by the manufacturers) is trying to >>> bring the battery back to full charge ASAP -- as well as keeping the >>> highest state of charge that the battery can support. >> >> Which taken to extremes is very bad for battery life. > > Of course. But, they are in the PRIMARY business of selling batteries, > not UPSs! Ugh. And having disgruntled customers. > >>> Charging at a slower rate and to a lower float voltage would >>> compromise the UPS's availability -- but provide less maintenance costs >>> (of course, the manufacturer wants to sell you batteries, so you >>> can see where their priorities will lie!) >> >> They really think I'm going to buy their vastly overpriced replacements? > > If you were a business, it would just be a maintenance expense. > You would budget for it. If SOHO, you'd likely replace it at > most once and then realize "Gee, I haven't NEEDED this in the > past three years so why am I spending more money on it?" > > With the exception of multi-user servers, individual workstations > usually have auto-backup provisions *in* the key applications. > And, in the event of an outage (even if the machine stays up), > the user is usually distracted by the rest of the house/office > going black; is ~15 minutes of uptime going to be enough if the > user isn't AT the machine when power fails? You need software monitoring to hibernate or power off the machine. > > No one has yet to address the market where TCO is the driving > criteria. > -- Cheers, Carlos.
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| From | Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-08 14:32 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <vvj7sl$248uj$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #733072 |
>> I don't think I've ever (regardless of where I've lived) experienced >> a deliberate power cut. A drunk may take out a telephone pole or >> a branch may fall on some high tension wires but no one has ever >> said "sorry, we're turning the lights out" (for whatever reason) > > Not the same, but past Monday someone stole the signalling cable in the high > speed railway to Andalussia, leaving the entire line OOS. I heard that trains > were authorized to run at 40 Km/h, so that they could see the other train in > time and tail it. Not sure it worked. > > The authorities talked of sabotage. The price of the cable when new is not even > a thousand euros, but the damage to thousands of people is huge. There are places where copper products (wire, plumbing) are stolen for their "recycle value". The solution, so far, has been to require recyclers to get and record identification of people bringing in such items. A friend had the copper stripped from the roof-mounted cooling unit at his business. Landlord held *him* responsible for its repair/replacement. I think there have been cases of people trying to steal the wiring in outside lighting systems -- and not taking adequate provisions to protect against electrocution! I would like to make some backlit copper lighted displays for the house (AZ is The Copper State) but am afraid its oxidized color would attract some thief eager to make a few dollars off it. >> Yup. They have a rationalization, though -- they are trying to provide the >> highest availability. Else, how much availability do you sacrifice to >> maximize battery life? Do you then start specifying battery life as a >> primary selection criteria? >> >> [Most SOHO users buy a UPS -- thinking they are being "professional" -- and >> then discard it when the battery needs replacing and they discover the >> costs charged by the UPS manufacturer -- or local "battery stores"] > > 25€. A 9Ah item, high discharge rate. Different grades exist, here. If you buy from an electronics supplier (e.g., Digikey), you will likely get a "fairer" price (value for money) than a local battery store (which may be 50% higher). UPS manufacturers typically charge about double what a reasonable price might be (though the usually assemble the batteries into the requisite "packs"... a trivial exercise for even 48V units). Digikey used to have a policy of free shipping for prepaid (cash) orders. I would buy batteries in lots of 10 and send prepayment. Shipping charges can be a significant fraction of a battery's cost. They now exclude batteries from this policy (when I last checked). >>>> I suspect the problem (rationalized by the manufacturers) is trying to >>>> bring the battery back to full charge ASAP -- as well as keeping the >>>> highest state of charge that the battery can support. >>> >>> Which taken to extremes is very bad for battery life. >> >> Of course. But, they are in the PRIMARY business of selling batteries, >> not UPSs! > > Ugh. > > And having disgruntled customers. Think about it. If the *UPS* (hardware) failed at 3 year intervals, no one would buy them! They'd be seen as poor quality. But, no one is surprised that BATTERIES need replacement! >> With the exception of multi-user servers, individual workstations >> usually have auto-backup provisions *in* the key applications. >> And, in the event of an outage (even if the machine stays up), >> the user is usually distracted by the rest of the house/office >> going black; is ~15 minutes of uptime going to be enough if the >> user isn't AT the machine when power fails? > > You need software monitoring to hibernate or power off the machine. I have every workstation set to hibernate after ~20 minutes of inactivity. This gives me time to get a cup of tea, go to the bathroom, answer the door/phone, etc. without the workstation cycling off and on. As "activity" is defined by user interactions, this means I have to deliberately start an application that disables "sleep" if I won't be interacting with the machine and want to prevent it from sleeping. E.g., an SSH session with a remote host that will be busy for a while; if the workstation sleeps, the SSH session terminates and the shell on the remote is killed off. <frown> >> No one has yet to address the market where TCO is the driving >> criteria. >> > >
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-09 14:07 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <1p71flx41d.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #733101 |
On 2025-05-08 23:32, Don Y wrote: >>> I don't think I've ever (regardless of where I've lived) experienced >>> a deliberate power cut. A drunk may take out a telephone pole or >>> a branch may fall on some high tension wires but no one has ever >>> said "sorry, we're turning the lights out" (for whatever reason) >> >> Not the same, but past Monday someone stole the signalling cable in >> the high speed railway to Andalussia, leaving the entire line OOS. I >> heard that trains were authorized to run at 40 Km/h, so that they >> could see the other train in time and tail it. Not sure it worked. >> >> The authorities talked of sabotage. The price of the cable when new is >> not even a thousand euros, but the damage to thousands of people is huge. > > There are places where copper products (wire, plumbing) are stolen > for their "recycle value". The solution, so far, has been to > require recyclers to get and record identification of people > bringing in such items. Not enough, apparently. The hut they vandalized has a notice board that says all the cables are aluminum. > > A friend had the copper stripped from the roof-mounted cooling unit at > his business. Landlord held *him* responsible for its repair/replacement. > Uff. > I think there have been cases of people trying to steal the wiring in > outside lighting systems -- and not taking adequate provisions to > protect against electrocution! Yeah, here too. They even tried to rip the railway catenary at some place. Some of those died on the spot. > > I would like to make some backlit copper lighted displays for the house > (AZ is The Copper State) but am afraid its oxidized color would attract > some thief eager to make a few dollars off it. Sigh. Some places have copper roofs. > >>> Yup. They have a rationalization, though -- they are trying to >>> provide the >>> highest availability. Else, how much availability do you sacrifice to >>> maximize battery life? Do you then start specifying battery life as a >>> primary selection criteria? >>> >>> [Most SOHO users buy a UPS -- thinking they are being "professional" >>> -- and >>> then discard it when the battery needs replacing and they discover the >>> costs charged by the UPS manufacturer -- or local "battery stores"] >> >> 25€. A 9Ah item, high discharge rate. > > Different grades exist, here. If you buy from an electronics supplier > (e.g., Digikey), you will likely get a "fairer" price (value for money) > than a local battery store (which may be 50% higher). UPS manufacturers > typically charge about double what a reasonable price might be (though > the usually assemble the batteries into the requisite "packs"... > a trivial exercise for even 48V units). Let me check. The computer place here offers: Phasak PHB 1209 Batería SAI/UPS 9Ah 12V 29,17€ Salicru UBT 12/9 Batería para SAI/UPS 9aH 12v 18,98€ (was 20,63€) So the brand name battery replacement for my UPS is actually cheaper than what I paid. Surprise! > Digikey used to have a policy of free shipping for prepaid (cash) > orders. I would buy batteries in lots of 10 and send prepayment. > Shipping charges can be a significant fraction of a battery's > cost. They now exclude batteries from this policy (when I last > checked). Right, they are very heavy. Yep, the place above charges 5.25€ for shipping. > >>>>> I suspect the problem (rationalized by the manufacturers) is trying to >>>>> bring the battery back to full charge ASAP -- as well as keeping the >>>>> highest state of charge that the battery can support. >>>> >>>> Which taken to extremes is very bad for battery life. >>> >>> Of course. But, they are in the PRIMARY business of selling batteries, >>> not UPSs! >> >> Ugh. >> >> And having disgruntled customers. > > Think about it. If the *UPS* (hardware) failed at 3 year intervals, > no one would buy them! They'd be seen as poor quality. > > But, no one is surprised that BATTERIES need replacement! > >>> With the exception of multi-user servers, individual workstations >>> usually have auto-backup provisions *in* the key applications. >>> And, in the event of an outage (even if the machine stays up), >>> the user is usually distracted by the rest of the house/office >>> going black; is ~15 minutes of uptime going to be enough if the >>> user isn't AT the machine when power fails? >> >> You need software monitoring to hibernate or power off the machine. > > I have every workstation set to hibernate after ~20 minutes > of inactivity. This gives me time to get a cup of tea, go to > the bathroom, answer the door/phone, etc. without the workstation > cycling off and on. > > As "activity" is defined by user interactions, this means I > have to deliberately start an application that disables "sleep" > if I won't be interacting with the machine and want to prevent > it from sleeping. E.g., an SSH session with a remote host that > will be busy for a while; if the workstation sleeps, the SSH > session terminates and the shell on the remote is killed off. > > <frown> Right. > >>> No one has yet to address the market where TCO is the driving >>> criteria. >>> >> >> > > -- Cheers, Carlos.
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| From | Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-09 14:32 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <vvls8s$31drb$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #733129 |
On 5/9/2025 5:07 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> There are places where copper products (wire, plumbing) are stolen >> for their "recycle value". The solution, so far, has been to >> require recyclers to get and record identification of people >> bringing in such items. > > Not enough, apparently. > > The hut they vandalized has a notice board that says all the cables are aluminum. I wonder if the would-be thieves even bother to READ... >> I think there have been cases of people trying to steal the wiring in >> outside lighting systems -- and not taking adequate provisions to >> protect against electrocution! > > Yeah, here too. They even tried to rip the railway catenary at some place. Some > of those died on the spot. How much "protection" do you think a SIGN would provide? "Hey, Bob, don't these got electricity in them?" >> I would like to make some backlit copper lighted displays for the house >> (AZ is The Copper State) but am afraid its oxidized color would attract >> some thief eager to make a few dollars off it. > > Sigh. > > Some places have copper roofs. Yes. We had looked into it (because it is far more durable than virtually any other roofing material in common use, here (including tile). But, you need a minimum pitch to ensure the water doesn't pool on the roof. >>> 25€. A 9Ah item, high discharge rate. >> >> Different grades exist, here. If you buy from an electronics supplier >> (e.g., Digikey), you will likely get a "fairer" price (value for money) >> than a local battery store (which may be 50% higher). UPS manufacturers >> typically charge about double what a reasonable price might be (though >> the usually assemble the batteries into the requisite "packs"... >> a trivial exercise for even 48V units). > > Let me check. The computer place here offers: > > Phasak PHB 1209 Batería SAI/UPS 9Ah 12V 29,17€ > > Salicru UBT 12/9 Batería para SAI/UPS 9aH 12v 18,98€ (was 20,63€) > > So the brand name battery replacement for my UPS is actually cheaper than what > I paid. Surprise! The nominal 12V 7.2AHr batteries (also available at 9AHr in the same case size) that many of my UPSs use are ~20-30, here, neglecting shipping and tax. Putting two (for smaller UPSs) or 4 in each UPS gets pricey -- if you have to do it every 3 years (and have a dozen UPSs)! I've tried a new configuration where I am hanging many of the UPSs off a couple of larger units. The thinking being that I only have to maintain the larger units' batteries (and still get the benefits of a UPS per workstation). >> Digikey used to have a policy of free shipping for prepaid (cash) >> orders. I would buy batteries in lots of 10 and send prepayment. >> Shipping charges can be a significant fraction of a battery's >> cost. They now exclude batteries from this policy (when I last >> checked). > > Right, they are very heavy. Yep, the place above charges 5.25€ for shipping. As I said, I try to rescue them (often I come across NiB UPSs that some moron in IT ordered but opted not to install. As the recycle value of batteries is just weight (regardless of ability to hold a charge), I swap my dead batteries for such new batteries and everyone is happy!
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-10 03:19 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <d6m2flxgq3.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #733144 |
On 2025-05-09 23:32, Don Y wrote: > On 5/9/2025 5:07 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>> There are places where copper products (wire, plumbing) are stolen >>> for their "recycle value". The solution, so far, has been to >>> require recyclers to get and record identification of people >>> bringing in such items. >> >> Not enough, apparently. >> >> The hut they vandalized has a notice board that says all the cables >> are aluminum. > > I wonder if the would-be thieves even bother to READ... > >>> I think there have been cases of people trying to steal the wiring in >>> outside lighting systems -- and not taking adequate provisions to >>> protect against electrocution! >> >> Yeah, here too. They even tried to rip the railway catenary at some >> place. Some of those died on the spot. > > How much "protection" do you think a SIGN would provide? "Hey, Bob, > don't these got electricity in them?" That was a different theft, eh? Different thieves, city, all. :-) > >>> I would like to make some backlit copper lighted displays for the house >>> (AZ is The Copper State) but am afraid its oxidized color would attract >>> some thief eager to make a few dollars off it. >> >> Sigh. >> >> Some places have copper roofs. > > Yes. We had looked into it (because it is far more durable than > virtually any other roofing material in common use, here (including > tile). But, you need a minimum pitch to ensure the water doesn't > pool on the roof. Yes, of course. Around here we have many flat roofed houses. Many of those use aluminum foil with asphalt. If well done, it could hold a pool. > >>>> 25€. A 9Ah item, high discharge rate. >>> >>> Different grades exist, here. If you buy from an electronics supplier >>> (e.g., Digikey), you will likely get a "fairer" price (value for money) >>> than a local battery store (which may be 50% higher). UPS manufacturers >>> typically charge about double what a reasonable price might be (though >>> the usually assemble the batteries into the requisite "packs"... >>> a trivial exercise for even 48V units). >> >> Let me check. The computer place here offers: >> >> Phasak PHB 1209 Batería SAI/UPS 9Ah 12V 29,17€ >> >> Salicru UBT 12/9 Batería para SAI/UPS 9aH 12v 18,98€ (was 20,63€) >> >> So the brand name battery replacement for my UPS is actually cheaper >> than what I paid. Surprise! > > The nominal 12V 7.2AHr batteries (also available at 9AHr in the same > case size) that many of my UPSs use are ~20-30, here, neglecting > shipping and tax. Putting two (for smaller UPSs) or 4 in each UPS > gets pricey -- if you have to do it every 3 years (and have a dozen > UPSs)! Indeed! > > I've tried a new configuration where I am hanging many of the > UPSs off a couple of larger units. The thinking being that I > only have to maintain the larger units' batteries (and still > get the benefits of a UPS per workstation). Maybe just a big unit, and wiring around the place. Red coloured sockets. Lilke in computer centres. > >>> Digikey used to have a policy of free shipping for prepaid (cash) >>> orders. I would buy batteries in lots of 10 and send prepayment. >>> Shipping charges can be a significant fraction of a battery's >>> cost. They now exclude batteries from this policy (when I last >>> checked). >> >> Right, they are very heavy. Yep, the place above charges 5.25€ for >> shipping. > > As I said, I try to rescue them (often I come across NiB UPSs > that some moron in IT ordered but opted not to install. > As the recycle value of batteries is just weight (regardless of > ability to hold a charge), I swap my dead batteries for such > new batteries and everyone is happy! :-D -- Cheers, Carlos.
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| From | Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-09 19:37 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <vvme4t$39vak$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #733149 |
> Yes, of course. Around here we have many flat roofed houses. Many of those use > aluminum foil with asphalt. If well done, it could hold a pool. Sadly, organic debris accumulates on them. Then, water gets trapped in the debris -- and slowly rots the roof in that location. Drainage being important and hard to accomplish with low pitch. >> I've tried a new configuration where I am hanging many of the >> UPSs off a couple of larger units. The thinking being that I >> only have to maintain the larger units' batteries (and still >> get the benefits of a UPS per workstation). > > Maybe just a big unit, and wiring around the place. Red coloured sockets. Lilke > in computer centres. Wiring *in* the structure would necessitate an inspection. But, plugging three UPSs (with long power cords) into a single UPS is acceptable. Then, the single UPS can serve those three loads or any combination. ONE set of batteries to replace (let the other three "slaves" complain that they are missing batteries... who cares?!) >>>> Digikey used to have a policy of free shipping for prepaid (cash) >>>> orders. I would buy batteries in lots of 10 and send prepayment. >>>> Shipping charges can be a significant fraction of a battery's >>>> cost. They now exclude batteries from this policy (when I last >>>> checked). >>> >>> Right, they are very heavy. Yep, the place above charges 5.25€ for shipping. >> >> As I said, I try to rescue them (often I come across NiB UPSs >> that some moron in IT ordered but opted not to install. >> As the recycle value of batteries is just weight (regardless of >> ability to hold a charge), I swap my dead batteries for such >> new batteries and everyone is happy! > > :-D An SLA battery is worth about 22c/pound for its lead content. So, *taking* viable batteries is effectively theft (though on a very small scale). Replacing them with an equivalent weight of recyclable lead leave no grounds for objection: "How better to RECYCLE this *good* battery than to return it to service?!"
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-10 16:04 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <c034flxphi.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #733151 |
On 2025-05-10 04:37, Don Y wrote: >> Yes, of course. Around here we have many flat roofed houses. Many of >> those use aluminum foil with asphalt. If well done, it could hold a pool. > > Sadly, organic debris accumulates on them. Then, water gets trapped > in the debris -- and slowly rots the roof in that location. Drainage > being important and hard to accomplish with low pitch. The intense sun dries it up soon :-) >>> I've tried a new configuration where I am hanging many of the >>> UPSs off a couple of larger units. The thinking being that I >>> only have to maintain the larger units' batteries (and still >>> get the benefits of a UPS per workstation). >> >> Maybe just a big unit, and wiring around the place. Red coloured >> sockets. Lilke in computer centres. > > Wiring *in* the structure would necessitate an inspection. > But, plugging three UPSs (with long power cords) into a > single UPS is acceptable. Then, the single UPS can > serve those three loads or any combination. Ah. > > ONE set of batteries to replace (let the other three "slaves" > complain that they are missing batteries... who cares?!) Why not remove those three UPS, and connect the loads direct to the main UPS? :-? > >>>>> Digikey used to have a policy of free shipping for prepaid (cash) >>>>> orders. I would buy batteries in lots of 10 and send prepayment. >>>>> Shipping charges can be a significant fraction of a battery's >>>>> cost. They now exclude batteries from this policy (when I last >>>>> checked). >>>> >>>> Right, they are very heavy. Yep, the place above charges 5.25€ for >>>> shipping. >>> >>> As I said, I try to rescue them (often I come across NiB UPSs >>> that some moron in IT ordered but opted not to install. >>> As the recycle value of batteries is just weight (regardless of >>> ability to hold a charge), I swap my dead batteries for such >>> new batteries and everyone is happy! >> >> :-D > > An SLA battery is worth about 22c/pound for its lead content. > So, *taking* viable batteries is effectively theft (though on > a very small scale). Replacing them with an equivalent > weight of recyclable lead leave no grounds for objection: > "How better to RECYCLE this *good* battery than to return it > to service?!" Indeed :-) -- Cheers, Carlos.
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| From | Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-10 09:13 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <vvnu07$3k6l9$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #733157 |
On 5/10/2025 7:04 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote: > On 2025-05-10 04:37, Don Y wrote: >>> Yes, of course. Around here we have many flat roofed houses. Many of those >>> use aluminum foil with asphalt. If well done, it could hold a pool. >> >> Sadly, organic debris accumulates on them. Then, water gets trapped >> in the debris -- and slowly rots the roof in that location. Drainage >> being important and hard to accomplish with low pitch. > > The intense sun dries it up soon :-) Not with pine needles in a corner of the roof shaded by said tree! >> ONE set of batteries to replace (let the other three "slaves" >> complain that they are missing batteries... who cares?!) > > Why not remove those three UPS, and connect the loads direct to the main UPS? :-? Because the power cords of the UPSs are longer than the power cords of each of the workstations AND THEIR ASSOCIATED PERIPHERALS. Additionally, the UPS lets me monitor the power consumed by the attached loads so I can figure out how much I can tax the upstream UPS (when using multiple workstations)
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-11 15:04 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <dsj6flxq3p.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #733162 |
On 2025-05-10 18:13, Don Y wrote: > On 5/10/2025 7:04 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> On 2025-05-10 04:37, Don Y wrote: >>>> Yes, of course. Around here we have many flat roofed houses. Many of >>>> those use aluminum foil with asphalt. If well done, it could hold a >>>> pool. >>> >>> Sadly, organic debris accumulates on them. Then, water gets trapped >>> in the debris -- and slowly rots the roof in that location. Drainage >>> being important and hard to accomplish with low pitch. >> >> The intense sun dries it up soon :-) > > Not with pine needles in a corner of the roof shaded by said tree! Ok... > >>> ONE set of batteries to replace (let the other three "slaves" >>> complain that they are missing batteries... who cares?!) >> >> Why not remove those three UPS, and connect the loads direct to the >> main UPS? :-? > > Because the power cords of the UPSs are longer than the power cords of > each of the workstations AND THEIR ASSOCIATED PERIPHERALS. I'd just use a cable extender. > > Additionally, the UPS lets me monitor the power consumed by the > attached loads so I can figure out how much I can tax the > upstream UPS (when using multiple workstations) Ok, that's a powerful reason :-) -- Cheers, Carlos.
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| From | Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-11 06:46 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <vvq9pb$fdll$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #733194 |
On 5/11/2025 6:04 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote: > On 2025-05-10 18:13, Don Y wrote: >> On 5/10/2025 7:04 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>> On 2025-05-10 04:37, Don Y wrote: >>>>> Yes, of course. Around here we have many flat roofed houses. Many of those >>>>> use aluminum foil with asphalt. If well done, it could hold a pool. >>>> >>>> Sadly, organic debris accumulates on them. Then, water gets trapped >>>> in the debris -- and slowly rots the roof in that location. Drainage >>>> being important and hard to accomplish with low pitch. >>> >>> The intense sun dries it up soon :-) >> >> Not with pine needles in a corner of the roof shaded by said tree! > > Ok... Most frontier style roofs, here, have a wall that surrounds the roof (three sides) above the roof level. So, there is always a dead spot where debris accumulates (you can see it swirl in these little pockets as the wind blows). And, depending on the season, the sun may be lower in the sky thus creating a permanent shadow near that wall. We have one "bad spot" where I regularly "harvest" 20-30 cubic feet of pine needles, several times each year. I use a "snow shovel" to lift them up over that wall and down onto the ground, below, where I can later rake them up and discard them. Pine needles acidify the "solution" formed when wet. >>>> ONE set of batteries to replace (let the other three "slaves" >>>> complain that they are missing batteries... who cares?!) >>> >>> Why not remove those three UPS, and connect the loads direct to the main >>> UPS? :-? >> >> Because the power cords of the UPSs are longer than the power cords of >> each of the workstations AND THEIR ASSOCIATED PERIPHERALS. > > I'd just use a cable extender. You need to have multiple receptacles on the load end as there are multiple loads to be plugged to each UPS. I.e., use an outlet strip. Hey! A UPS can act as an outlet strip! :> The UPS per workstation was a handy approach as it let me power down (or up) everything that the workstation would typically need, beyond just the "CPU". E.g., scanners, digitizing tablets, external drives, etc. >> Additionally, the UPS lets me monitor the power consumed by the >> attached loads so I can figure out how much I can tax the >> upstream UPS (when using multiple workstations) > > Ok, that's a powerful reason :-)
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-11 21:25 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <a6a7flxb73.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #733197 |
On 2025-05-11 15:46, Don Y wrote: > On 5/11/2025 6:04 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> On 2025-05-10 18:13, Don Y wrote: >>> On 5/10/2025 7:04 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>>> On 2025-05-10 04:37, Don Y wrote: >>>>>> Yes, of course. Around here we have many flat roofed houses. Many >>>>>> of those use aluminum foil with asphalt. If well done, it could >>>>>> hold a pool. >>>>> >>>>> Sadly, organic debris accumulates on them. Then, water gets trapped >>>>> in the debris -- and slowly rots the roof in that location. Drainage >>>>> being important and hard to accomplish with low pitch. >>>> >>>> The intense sun dries it up soon :-) >>> >>> Not with pine needles in a corner of the roof shaded by said tree! >> >> Ok... > > Most frontier style roofs, here, have a wall that surrounds the > roof (three sides) above the roof level. So, there is always a > dead spot where debris accumulates (you can see it swirl in these > little pockets as the wind blows). > > And, depending on the season, the sun may be lower in the sky > thus creating a permanent shadow near that wall. > > We have one "bad spot" where I regularly "harvest" 20-30 cubic > feet of pine needles, several times each year. I use a "snow > shovel" to lift them up over that wall and down onto the ground, > below, where I can later rake them up and discard them. > > Pine needles acidify the "solution" formed when wet. I had a place near the beach with such a flat roof. No pines over there. > >>>>> ONE set of batteries to replace (let the other three "slaves" >>>>> complain that they are missing batteries... who cares?!) >>>> >>>> Why not remove those three UPS, and connect the loads direct to the >>>> main UPS? :-? >>> >>> Because the power cords of the UPSs are longer than the power cords of >>> each of the workstations AND THEIR ASSOCIATED PERIPHERALS. >> >> I'd just use a cable extender. > > You need to have multiple receptacles on the load end as there > are multiple loads to be plugged to each UPS. I.e., use an > outlet strip. Hey! A UPS can act as an outlet strip! :> > > The UPS per workstation was a handy approach as it let me power down > (or up) everything that the workstation would typically need, > beyond just the "CPU". E.g., scanners, digitizing tablets, > external drives, etc. Sure, yes. My extenders have multiple receptacles, typically 3, and 5 metres. There are many choices in the supermarket or in Amazon. Many have a switch. Some of them have surge protection and filtering. > >>> Additionally, the UPS lets me monitor the power consumed by the >>> attached loads so I can figure out how much I can tax the >>> upstream UPS (when using multiple workstations) >> >> Ok, that's a powerful reason :-) > -- Cheers, Carlos.
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| From | Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-12 11:07 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <vvtdco$17jh7$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #733206 |
On 5/11/2025 12:25 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>>> Not with pine needles in a corner of the roof shaded by said tree! >>> >>> Ok... >> >> Most frontier style roofs, here, have a wall that surrounds the >> roof (three sides) above the roof level. So, there is always a >> dead spot where debris accumulates (you can see it swirl in these >> little pockets as the wind blows). >> >> And, depending on the season, the sun may be lower in the sky >> thus creating a permanent shadow near that wall. >> >> We have one "bad spot" where I regularly "harvest" 20-30 cubic >> feet of pine needles, several times each year. I use a "snow >> shovel" to lift them up over that wall and down onto the ground, >> below, where I can later rake them up and discard them. >> >> Pine needles acidify the "solution" formed when wet. > > I had a place near the beach with such a flat roof. No pines over there. Pines are some of the few "tall trees" that we have, here -- easily growing to 50 ft. Their needles shed continuously (not at a single season like deciduous trees). A neighbor with three such trees recently felled theirs. This appears to have dramatically reduced the accumulation on the roof (despite a 25 ft pine being located nearby). I suspect the number of such tall pines falling in local microbursts may have played a part in their decision to remove the trees. Previously, they had claimed any of the trees falling on our property would be treated as "act of god" in terms of insurance coverage. I suspect they eventually realized said trees falling onto THEIR property would similarly be treated! oops! >>>> Because the power cords of the UPSs are longer than the power cords of >>>> each of the workstations AND THEIR ASSOCIATED PERIPHERALS. >>> >>> I'd just use a cable extender. >> >> You need to have multiple receptacles on the load end as there >> are multiple loads to be plugged to each UPS. I.e., use an >> outlet strip. Hey! A UPS can act as an outlet strip! :> >> >> The UPS per workstation was a handy approach as it let me power down >> (or up) everything that the workstation would typically need, >> beyond just the "CPU". E.g., scanners, digitizing tablets, >> external drives, etc. > > Sure, yes. My extenders have multiple receptacles, typically 3, and 5 metres. > There are many choices in the supermarket or in Amazon. Many have a switch. > Some of them have surge protection and filtering. My "outlet strips" support 6 receptacles, fused and with switch/indicator. But, these need to be secured to <something> to avoid flailing around as connected loads are moved, rearranged, etc. The UPSs fit nicely atop each associated tower. Even without the mass of their internal batteries (removed in favor of the upstream UPS), the UPS sits in place -- presenting its display (and controls) to the front where they are easily accessed. The USB port lets the workstation talk to the UPS while the NIC lets the network talk to it. And, they are essentially free (my outlet strips were $30/each). Their value lies in the lead content of their batteries which, if depleted, have no value to *me* (so can be left behind).
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-08 14:54 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <p4muelx89p.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #733061 |
On 2025-05-08 12:57, Martin Brown wrote: > On 08/05/2025 00:01, Don Y wrote: >>>>>> Much like me having carrier doesn't tell me the extent of >>>>>> my "reach", here. >>>>> >>>>> Well, the power outage was "total". :-D >>>> >>>> Yeah, but you don't know which services (up the chain) may >>>> have their own *local*/private backup systems. E.g., I doubt >>>> your hospitals were without power (?) The extent of backup >>>> beyond that would be something you'd have to know, in advance. >>> >>> If the fibre goes direct to the exchange, they had backup power. >>> However, if the distance is great and they have to reconstruct the >>> signal with some kind of optical amplifier, then I don't know. The >>> distance is about 2.5 Km. >> >> But where can exchange traffic go? See what I mean? Anyone that >> you want to contact (and everyone along the way) must be "up". > > That was the original point of ARPANET then EPSS and later the internet. > Packet switching means that any route to the destination at all will do. > > I'm told that my fibre feed is passive optical connectors and splices > all the way back the regional exchange about 12 miles away. My local > exchange was about 5 miles away and a so-called exchange only direct > line (which meant that ADSL 2+ was the limit for me prior to FTTP). >> >>> My mobile phone worked all the day, I could send and receive whatsapp >>> messages. >> >> Are those processed "locally"? > > Mobile phone masts here typically have a lifetime of about 8-40 hours > after power failure depending on how heavily they are being used. > Backhaul presumably is optical or microwave. > > Most powercuts tend to be fairly local round here - a regional powercut > or a national one requires something truly catastrophic to happen. > > I can only recall one UK powercut in that league in the past half > century (August 9 2019). Of course it directly affected the densely > populated affluent regions London and the South East. Therefore it was > much more newsworthy than if it had affected the remote Scottish > Highlands where weather induced powercuts are quite common. > > The recent big one at Heathrow didn't affect all that many people > although it did take down the whole airport which shows remarkably bad > contingency planning - it should have had supply redundancy and the > ability to switchover to it before the diesel generators ran out of > fuel. Heads should roll over them having to shut down completely. Barajas and probably all main airports remained working here, but the problem was getting to them. The Metro to Barajas was OOS, so it meant bus or taxi; and there were terrible traffic jams because signalling was OOS. Even the air crews had trouble arriving at the airports. > >>> I have a small computer doing server things, and it tried to email me >>> as soon as the UPS said it was running on battery. That email did not >>> reach me till the power came back; this could be that the fibre went >>> OOS, or that the UPS at my router went down instantly. I do not know. >> >> Doesn't your UPS deliver log messages (to a syslog server or data >> dumps to an FTP service)? >> >> I have each of mine configured to give me summaries of power consumption >> and line conditions each minute. And, use a syslogd on that same server. > > I only log external power failures. Kitchen appliance clocks all reset > when we lose power for more than a couple of seconds. > >>> I'm considering replacing the UPS at my router. Some UPS "destroy" >>> the battery too fast. >> >> Yes. Rather than spend time investigating it, I've taken the approach >> of just rescuing batteries to replace those that have been "cooked". > > That is a feature of UPS design that specsmanship to get the longest run > time for the sales datasheet means that they cook their batteries. I > have seen them swell to the point of bursting inside a UPS. Thick rubber > gloves needed to remove the remains. Support metalwork was a real > corroded rusty mess but electronics above it remained OK. That level of "not working" has not happened to me. Maybe because some power failure makes me find out that the battery is dead. >> >> I suspect the problem (rationalized by the manufacturers) is trying to >> bring the battery back to full charge ASAP -- as well as keeping the >> highest state of charge that the battery can support. > > Which taken to extremes is very bad for battery life. > >> Charging at a slower rate and to a lower float voltage would >> compromise the UPS's availability -- but provide less maintenance costs >> (of course, the manufacturer wants to sell you batteries, so you >> can see where their priorities will lie!) > > They really think I'm going to buy their vastly overpriced replacements? I don't. But last battery I replaced was not even two years old, rather 5 months short. I replaced it just in time to serve during the Gran Apagón. -- Cheers, Carlos.
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| From | Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-08 14:57 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <vvj9co$265vt$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #733070 |
>> That is a feature of UPS design that specsmanship to get the longest run time >> for the sales datasheet means that they cook their batteries. I have seen >> them swell to the point of bursting inside a UPS. Thick rubber gloves needed >> to remove the remains. Support metalwork was a real corroded rusty mess but >> electronics above it remained OK. > > That level of "not working" has not happened to me. Maybe because some power > failure makes me find out that the battery is dead. I've rescued a fair number of UPSs over the years. In probably 80% of them, the batteries have swollen to the point where removing the battery or battery PACK is difficult. This is especially true of the "better" UPSs (sine output, 48V battery, metal fabrication) where there is little "give" in the mechanical design. Often one has to disassemble the UPS to see where one can gain leverage on the battery pack to force it from the case. >> They really think I'm going to buy their vastly overpriced replacements? > > I don't. > > But last battery I replaced was not even two years old, rather 5 months short. > I replaced it just in time to serve during the Gran Apagón. That's the problem; you don't KNOW how long a particular battery will last, even in an environment where it is never called on for backup! Instead, you are forced into a "reactive" mode -- waiting for something to tell you you're screwed and need a replacement, now! My largest UPS uses 50 pound batteries (8 of them). It's REALLY inconvenient to have to replace them *now* cuz they are costly and physically inconvenient to man-handle. I would much appreciate some advance notice that they are likely to need replacement in, say, 30 days (given the current usage pattern). Maybe folks will start putting more smarts into their product designs instead of simple "threshold" events.
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-09 14:18 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <de81flxqff.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #733102 |
On 2025-05-08 23:57, Don Y wrote: >>> That is a feature of UPS design that specsmanship to get the longest >>> run time for the sales datasheet means that they cook their >>> batteries. I have seen them swell to the point of bursting inside a >>> UPS. Thick rubber gloves needed to remove the remains. Support >>> metalwork was a real corroded rusty mess but electronics above it >>> remained OK. >> >> That level of "not working" has not happened to me. Maybe because some >> power failure makes me find out that the battery is dead. > > I've rescued a fair number of UPSs over the years. In probably 80% of > them, the batteries have swollen to the point where removing the battery > or battery PACK is difficult. This is especially true of the "better" > UPSs (sine output, 48V battery, metal fabrication) where there is > little "give" in the mechanical design. Often one has to disassemble > the UPS to see where one can gain leverage on the battery pack > to force it from the case. > >>> They really think I'm going to buy their vastly overpriced replacements? >> >> I don't. >> >> But last battery I replaced was not even two years old, rather 5 >> months short. I replaced it just in time to serve during the Gran Apagón. > > That's the problem; you don't KNOW how long a particular battery will last, > even in an environment where it is never called on for backup! > > Instead, you are forced into a "reactive" mode -- waiting for something > to tell you you're screwed and need a replacement, now! > > My largest UPS uses 50 pound batteries (8 of them). Are they 12 volts each, or just one cell? On phone exchanges I saw huge batteries, actually individual cells connected in series. 48 volts nominally, so 24 cells. I don't think they were gel types, they needed adding water now and then. > It's > REALLY inconvenient to have to replace them *now* cuz they > are costly and physically inconvenient to man-handle. I > would much appreciate some advance notice that they are likely > to need replacement in, say, 30 days (given the current usage > pattern). > > Maybe folks will start putting more smarts into their product > designs instead of simple "threshold" events. Some UPS say they can test the battery. Mine do not, or the software I have doesn't. When looking at specs for a replacement UPS, possibly an Eaton, I saw they mentioned emitting a beep when battery is bad. -- Cheers, Carlos.
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| From | Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-09 12:22 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ahas1kt6jg338ie9g9od4edt15gea1mjmu@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #733130 |
On Fri, 9 May 2025 14:18:53 +0200, "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: >On 2025-05-08 23:57, Don Y wrote: >>>> That is a feature of UPS design that specsmanship to get the longest >>>> run time for the sales datasheet means that they cook their >>>> batteries. I have seen them swell to the point of bursting inside a >>>> UPS. Thick rubber gloves needed to remove the remains. Support >>>> metalwork was a real corroded rusty mess but electronics above it >>>> remained OK. >>> >>> That level of "not working" has not happened to me. Maybe because some >>> power failure makes me find out that the battery is dead. >> >> I've rescued a fair number of UPSs over the years. In probably 80% of >> them, the batteries have swollen to the point where removing the battery >> or battery PACK is difficult. This is especially true of the "better" >> UPSs (sine output, 48V battery, metal fabrication) where there is >> little "give" in the mechanical design. Often one has to disassemble >> the UPS to see where one can gain leverage on the battery pack >> to force it from the case. >> >>>> They really think I'm going to buy their vastly overpriced replacements? >>> >>> I don't. >>> >>> But last battery I replaced was not even two years old, rather 5 >>> months short. I replaced it just in time to serve during the Gran Apagón. >> >> That's the problem; you don't KNOW how long a particular battery will last, >> even in an environment where it is never called on for backup! >> >> Instead, you are forced into a "reactive" mode -- waiting for something >> to tell you you're screwed and need a replacement, now! >> >> My largest UPS uses 50 pound batteries (8 of them). > >Are they 12 volts each, or just one cell? > >On phone exchanges I saw huge batteries, actually individual cells >connected in series. 48 volts nominally, so 24 cells. I don't think they >were gel types, they needed adding water now and then. The were most likely KS-20472 BELLCELL lead-acid battery cells, originally made by Western Electric, or European equivalent. These are 2.2 volts per cell. .<https://library.industrialsolutions.abb.com/publibrary/checkout/107852477?TNR=Installation%20and%20Instruction%7C107852477%7CPDF> Joe
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-09 23:28 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <tk82flxsuj.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #733139 |
On 2025-05-09 18:22, Joe Gwinn wrote: > On Fri, 9 May 2025 14:18:53 +0200, "Carlos E.R." > <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: > >> On 2025-05-08 23:57, Don Y wrote: >>>>> That is a feature of UPS design that specsmanship to get the longest >>>>> run time for the sales datasheet means that they cook their >>>>> batteries. I have seen them swell to the point of bursting inside a >>>>> UPS. Thick rubber gloves needed to remove the remains. Support >>>>> metalwork was a real corroded rusty mess but electronics above it >>>>> remained OK. >>>> >>>> That level of "not working" has not happened to me. Maybe because some >>>> power failure makes me find out that the battery is dead. >>> >>> I've rescued a fair number of UPSs over the years. In probably 80% of >>> them, the batteries have swollen to the point where removing the battery >>> or battery PACK is difficult. This is especially true of the "better" >>> UPSs (sine output, 48V battery, metal fabrication) where there is >>> little "give" in the mechanical design. Often one has to disassemble >>> the UPS to see where one can gain leverage on the battery pack >>> to force it from the case. >>> >>>>> They really think I'm going to buy their vastly overpriced replacements? >>>> >>>> I don't. >>>> >>>> But last battery I replaced was not even two years old, rather 5 >>>> months short. I replaced it just in time to serve during the Gran Apagón. >>> >>> That's the problem; you don't KNOW how long a particular battery will last, >>> even in an environment where it is never called on for backup! >>> >>> Instead, you are forced into a "reactive" mode -- waiting for something >>> to tell you you're screwed and need a replacement, now! >>> >>> My largest UPS uses 50 pound batteries (8 of them). >> >> Are they 12 volts each, or just one cell? >> >> On phone exchanges I saw huge batteries, actually individual cells >> connected in series. 48 volts nominally, so 24 cells. I don't think they >> were gel types, they needed adding water now and then. > > The were most likely KS-20472 BELLCELL lead-acid battery cells, > originally made by Western Electric, or European equivalent. These > are 2.2 volts per cell. > > .<https://library.industrialsolutions.abb.com/publibrary/checkout/107852477?TNR=Installation%20and%20Instruction%7C107852477%7CPDF> Those I saw were prismatic, not cylindrical. -- Cheers, Carlos.
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