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Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain

From "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Newsgroups sci.electronics.design
Subject Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain
Date 2025-05-08 15:05 +0200
Message-ID <2pmuelx7qq.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> (permalink)
References (23 earlier) <vvfmht$11iac$1@dont-email.me> <evtselxgev.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> <vvgonn$19stn$1@dont-email.me> <vvi2n4$1n4pj$1@dont-email.me> <vvi5nh$1o2vk$1@dont-email.me>

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On 2025-05-08 13:49, Don Y wrote:

...

>> I can only recall one UK powercut in that league in the past half 
>> century (August 9 2019). Of course it directly affected the densely 
>> populated affluent regions London and the South East. Therefore it was 
>> much more newsworthy than if it had affected the remote Scottish 
>> Highlands where weather induced powercuts are quite common.
> 
> I don't think I've ever (regardless of where I've lived) experienced
> a deliberate power cut.  A drunk may take out a telephone pole or
> a branch may fall on some high tension wires but no one has ever
> said "sorry, we're turning the lights out" (for whatever reason)

Not the same, but past Monday someone stole the signalling cable in the 
high speed railway to Andalussia, leaving the entire line OOS. I heard 
that trains were authorized to run at 40 Km/h, so that they could see 
the other train in time and tail it. Not sure it worked.

The authorities talked of sabotage. The price of the cable when new is 
not even a thousand euros, but the damage to thousands of people is huge.

...

>>>> I'm considering replacing the UPS at my router. Some UPS "destroy" 
>>>> the battery too fast.
>>>
>>> Yes.  Rather than spend time investigating it, I've taken the approach
>>> of just rescuing batteries to replace those that have been "cooked".
>>
>> That is a feature of UPS design that specsmanship to get the longest 
>> run time for the sales datasheet means that they cook their batteries. 
>> I have seen them swell to the point of bursting inside a UPS. Thick 
>> rubber gloves needed to remove the remains. Support metalwork was a 
>> real corroded rusty mess but electronics above it remained OK.
> 
> Yup.  They have a rationalization, though -- they are trying to provide the
> highest availability.  Else, how much availability do you sacrifice to
> maximize battery life?  Do you then start specifying battery life as a
> primary selection criteria?
> 
> [Most SOHO users buy a UPS -- thinking they are being "professional" -- and
> then discard it when the battery needs replacing and they discover the
> costs charged by the UPS manufacturer -- or local "battery stores"]

25€. A 9Ah item, high discharge rate.


> 
>>> I suspect the problem (rationalized by the manufacturers) is trying to
>>> bring the battery back to full charge ASAP -- as well as keeping the
>>> highest state of charge that the battery can support.
>>
>> Which taken to extremes is very bad for battery life.
> 
> Of course.  But, they are in the PRIMARY business of selling batteries,
> not UPSs!

Ugh.

And having disgruntled customers.

> 
>>> Charging at a slower rate and to a lower float voltage would
>>> compromise the UPS's availability -- but provide less maintenance costs
>>> (of course, the manufacturer wants to sell you batteries, so you
>>> can see where their priorities will lie!)
>>
>> They really think I'm going to buy their vastly overpriced replacements?
> 
> If you were a business, it would just be a maintenance expense.
> You would budget for it.  If SOHO, you'd likely replace it at
> most once and then realize "Gee, I haven't NEEDED this in the
> past three years so why am I spending more money on it?"
> 
> With the exception of multi-user servers, individual workstations
> usually have auto-backup provisions *in* the key applications.
> And, in the event of an outage (even if the machine stays up),
> the user is usually distracted by the rest of the house/office
> going black; is ~15 minutes of uptime going to be enough if the
> user isn't AT the machine when power fails?

You need software monitoring to hibernate or power off the machine.

> 
> No one has yet to address the market where TCO is the driving
> criteria.
> 


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-04-29 13:24 +0100
  Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-04-30 00:42 +1000
    Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-04-29 16:07 +0100
      Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-04-29 10:52 -0700
        Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-04-29 20:32 +0100
          Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-04-29 13:43 -0700
          Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-04-29 17:07 -0700
            Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-04-29 17:38 -0700
              Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-04-30 09:31 +0100
            Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2025-04-30 08:45 +0100
              Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-04-30 04:29 -0700
            Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-04-30 09:20 +0100
              Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-04-30 02:57 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-01 10:54 +0100
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-01 11:28 +0100
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-01 03:55 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-01 06:56 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2025-05-01 19:15 +0000
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-01 15:29 +0100
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-01 08:03 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-01 18:25 +0100
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-01 13:49 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-01 03:51 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-01 23:28 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-01 15:16 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-02 02:54 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-01 18:37 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-02 12:01 -0400
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> - 2025-05-02 00:35 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-01 16:38 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-02 02:56 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-01 18:40 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-02 23:20 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-02 16:05 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2025-05-02 14:59 +0300
              Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> - 2025-04-30 11:18 -0700
          Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> - 2025-05-03 11:20 -0700
      Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-04-30 16:34 +1000
      Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2025-05-01 10:36 +1000
        Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-04-30 19:20 -0700
        Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-01 11:04 +0100
          Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-01 12:47 +0200
            Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-01 21:50 +0000
        Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-01 11:24 +0100
          Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-01 13:06 +0200
            Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> - 2025-05-01 11:37 -0700
              Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-02 07:45 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-03 00:53 +1000
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-02 17:49 +0100
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-02 16:20 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-03 14:01 +1000
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2025-05-03 16:11 +1000
          Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2025-05-02 22:50 +1000
          Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-02 07:43 -0700
            Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-03 00:56 +1000
              Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-02 17:49 +0100
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-02 13:41 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-02 15:40 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-03 14:19 +1000
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-03 14:10 +1000
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-05-08 00:59 +0000
        Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void> - 2025-05-01 15:21 +0000
        Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-04 02:34 +0200
    Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Lasse Langwadt <llc@fonz.dk> - 2025-04-29 17:48 +0200
      Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-04-29 09:03 -0700
        Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-04-30 16:49 +1000
      Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-04-30 16:41 +1000
        Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-04-30 10:59 +0100
          Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-30 12:41 +0200
            Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-04-30 12:08 +0100
              Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> - 2025-04-30 11:25 -0700
              Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-04-30 22:34 +0200
            Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-04-30 21:53 +1000
              Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-04-30 16:05 +0100
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-09 04:33 +1000
            Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> - 2025-04-30 14:11 +0200
              Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-01 21:42 +0200
            Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-04-30 11:47 -0700
              Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-01 15:07 +1000
              Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-01 21:48 +0200
          Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-01 23:37 +1000
            Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-01 17:21 +0100
              Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-02 03:41 +1000
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-02 11:03 +0100
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-02 21:50 +1000
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-03 14:24 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-03 08:12 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-04 03:20 +1000
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-03 19:23 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-03 11:30 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-03 21:17 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-03 13:39 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-05 20:36 +1000
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-04 15:57 +1000
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-04 14:34 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-04 13:20 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-04 22:55 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-04 19:50 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-05 17:39 +1000
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-05 13:47 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-05 13:45 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-05 06:58 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-05 17:35 +0100
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-06 04:47 +1000
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-05 20:04 +0100
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-06 16:32 +1000
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-06 08:13 +0100
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-08 02:30 +1000
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-07 17:48 +0100
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-08 15:54 +1000
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-05 12:27 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-05 23:35 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-05 19:40 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-06 10:25 +0100
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-06 12:26 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-06 13:27 +0100
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-06 18:56 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-06 14:52 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-07 13:04 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-07 05:09 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-07 14:30 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-07 06:17 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-07 22:55 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain John R Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> - 2025-05-07 22:04 +0100
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-07 16:01 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-08 11:57 +0100
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-08 04:49 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-08 13:43 +0100
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-08 14:05 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-08 13:43 +0100
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-08 15:08 +0100
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-08 17:19 +0100
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-08 20:39 +0100
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-09 09:23 +0100
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-09 13:20 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain KevinJ93 <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> - 2025-05-08 12:51 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-08 14:18 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-09 09:21 +0100
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-09 03:38 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-09 13:24 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-09 05:52 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-09 07:55 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-09 07:35 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-08 15:05 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-08 14:32 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-09 14:07 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-09 14:32 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-10 03:19 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-09 19:37 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-10 16:04 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-10 09:13 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-11 15:04 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-11 06:46 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-11 21:25 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-12 11:07 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-08 14:54 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-08 14:57 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-09 14:18 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-09 12:22 -0400
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-09 23:28 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-10 08:03 -0400
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-10 16:05 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-10 14:47 -0400
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void> - 2025-05-09 22:50 +0000
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-09 14:41 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-10 03:26 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-09 20:52 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-11 15:21 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-08 14:44 +0200
                UPS [Was:Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-08 15:41 +0200
                Re: UPS [Was:Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain] Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-08 15:18 +0100
                Re: UPS [Was:Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-08 22:23 +0200
                Re: UPS [Was:Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain] Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-08 17:13 -0700
                Re: UPS [Was:Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-09 12:29 +0200
                Re: UPS [Was:Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain] Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-09 05:21 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-08 15:38 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-09 12:29 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-09 04:05 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-09 14:20 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-09 14:44 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-06 14:23 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-05 23:31 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-05 18:49 -0400
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-06 02:18 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-06 10:42 -0400
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-05 17:37 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-05 19:47 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-06 12:32 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-04 15:42 +1000
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-03 23:55 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-03 16:53 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-04 02:27 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-04 09:49 +0100
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-04 17:23 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-05 02:24 +1000
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-04 19:34 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-04 08:35 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-04 19:36 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-04 13:24 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-04 16:00 +1000
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2025-05-04 10:12 +0100
            Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-01 21:50 +0200
              Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-02 11:17 +0100
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-02 23:24 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-02 22:58 +0100
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-02 16:10 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-03 14:37 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-03 10:47 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-03 23:59 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-03 15:15 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-04 02:29 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-05-03 21:49 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-04 16:15 +1000
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-04 14:41 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2025-05-04 10:23 +0200
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-04 16:38 +0100
        Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Lasse Langwadt <llc@fonz.dk> - 2025-04-30 22:16 +0200
          Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-01 15:18 +1000
  Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-04-29 07:57 -0700
    Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain bitrex <user@example.net> - 2025-04-29 11:27 -0400
      Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-04-29 08:59 -0700
        Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-04-30 17:05 +1000
          Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2025-04-30 11:41 +0100
            Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-04-30 22:37 +1000
              Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2025-04-30 21:50 +0800
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-01 01:05 +1000
            Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-04-30 11:51 -0700
              Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-01 15:33 +1000
        Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Tom Del Rosso" <fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> - 2025-05-09 02:16 -0400
          Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-09 21:25 +1000
    Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-04-30 16:53 +1000
  Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain brian <nospam@b-howie.co.uk> - 2025-04-29 17:24 +0100
    Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain brian <nospam@b-howie.co.uk> - 2025-04-30 07:09 +0100
  Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-29 21:13 +0200
    Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-04-29 12:26 -0700
      Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-29 21:51 +0200
        Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-04-29 13:39 -0700
          Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain bitrex <user@example.net> - 2025-04-29 17:05 -0400
            Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-04-29 15:41 -0700
              Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain bitrex <user@example.net> - 2025-04-29 18:55 -0400
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-04-29 17:00 -0700
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-04-30 17:32 +1000
                Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-01 21:54 +0200
          Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain bitrex <user@example.net> - 2025-04-29 17:07 -0400
          Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-04-30 17:19 +1000
    Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-04-29 19:57 -0700
  Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-29 23:33 +0200
    Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-04-30 19:55 +0100
      Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-04-30 12:33 -0700
      Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2025-04-30 16:00 -0700
      Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-01 22:00 +0200
    Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-04-30 17:28 -0400
      Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-01 15:24 +1000
      Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-01 10:27 +0100
        Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-01 07:06 -0700
          Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-01 15:48 +0100
            Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-05-01 08:40 -0700
              Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-05 02:10 +1000
          Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-02 03:17 +1000
        Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-01 11:38 -0400
          Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-02 03:32 +1000
      Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-01 22:12 +0200
        Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-01 19:38 -0400
          Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-02 18:04 +1000
      Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-05-01 22:19 +0000
        Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2025-05-01 19:21 -0400
  Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2025-04-30 09:08 -0700
    Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-01 15:29 +1000
  Re: Gran Apagón - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-01 22:13 +0200
    Re: Gran Apagón - Electricity (not) in Spain Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2025-05-02 11:28 +0100
      Re: Gran Apagón - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-02 23:30 +0200
        Re: Gran Apagón - Electricity (not) in Spain Miguel Gimenez <me@privacy.net> - 2025-05-08 14:31 +0200
          Re: Gran Apagón - Electricity (not) in Spain "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-08 15:45 +0200
  Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain "Tom Del Rosso" <fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> - 2025-05-09 02:20 -0400
    Re: Grand Apagon - Electricity (not) in Spain Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2025-05-09 21:35 +1000

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