Re: energy and mass

From	john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity, sci.electronics.design
Subject	Re: energy and mass
Date	2026-03-16 08:32 -0700
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<9k7grkh8585sm6gk201fqkmj538id5bmjo@4ax.com> (permalink)
References	(6 earlier) <nd7erk5dr6acatp48qj89bj03o7n0u6o6h@4ax.com> <ssycnV_x7tcz0Cr0nZ2dnZfqnPdaVmCt@giganews.com> <l1merk1hbadlbf5lhq54qk39rh9kccah55@4ax.com> <10p7ujr$1kml3$5@dont-email.me> <nXidna8sf62laSr0nZ2dnZfqnPWdnZ2d@giganews.com>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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On Mon, 16 Mar 2026 05:14:20 -0700, Ross Finlayson
<ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 03/15/2026 08:49 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
>> On 16/03/2026 12:10 pm, john larkin wrote:
>>> On Sun, 15 Mar 2026 17:24:20 -0700, Ross Finlayson
>>> <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 03/15/2026 02:18 PM, john larkin wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 15 Mar 2026 21:57:00 +0100, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
>>>>> Lodder) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 14/03/2026 8:05 am, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>>>>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 13/03/2026 7:58 am, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/03/2026 9:51 pm, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/03/2026 4:45 am, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/03/2026 9:20 pm, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/03/2026 7:21 am, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/03/2026 2:29 am, Ross Finlayson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 03/08/2026 07:44 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/03/2026 2:19 pm, Ross Finlayson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 03/07/2026 04:33 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/03/2026 1:59 am, Ross Finlayson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 03/06/2026 10:12 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/03/2026 2:47 am, Ross Finlayson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 03/06/2026 05:36 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/03/2026 7:37 pm, Thomas Heger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Dienstag000003, 03.03.2026 um 13:40 Bill
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sloman:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/03/2026 8:06 pm, Thomas Heger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Sonntag000001, 01.03.2026 um 11:03 Bill
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sloman:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/03/2026 8:26 pm, Thomas Heger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Samstag000028, 28.02.2026 um 14:17
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill Sloman:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/02/2026 8:03 pm, Thomas Heger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Donnerstag000026, 26.02.2026 um
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 15:05 Ross
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Finlayson:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 02/26/2026 02:21 AM, J. J. Lodder
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/02/2026 9:46 pm, J. J. Lodder
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/02/2026 4:02 am, Ross
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Finlayson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 02/24/2026 03:40 AM, J. J.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lodder wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ross Finlayson
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com>
>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 02/23/2026 12:49 PM, J. J.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lodder:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ross Finlayson
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.co
>>>>>> m>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The consequent tidal forces inside the sun sap kinetic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> energy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the earth's orbital movement, in the same way
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that tides
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on earth are causing the moons orbit to change.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a mistake. There is no tidal dissipation in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sun.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The sun will have tides too and the tidal ridges and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> valleys on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the surface of the will influence the movement of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> earth, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the movement of surface of the sun will absorb energy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are clutching at straws to save an erroneous idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sometimes it is easier to just admit to having made a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mistake.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Go ahead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There will be tidal dissipation in the sun, but not much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Effectively nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember that the relevant part of the sun is turbulent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plasma.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm well aware of it. Tidal excursions will still
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dissipate some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> energy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK, OK, you are behaving like just another crackpot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who can't bring himself to admit that his pet idea is wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's not my pet idea. It's just difficult for me to imagine
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> there won't be tides on the sun, or that the tidal flows
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-dissipative.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course there will be a (very small) tide in the sun,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and of course it will not be completely non-dissipative.
>>>>>>>>>>>> That doesn't mean that it is in any way relevant.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We weren't talking about relevance. I wanted to see a coherent
>>>>>>>>>>> world
>>>>>>>>>>> picture.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A coherent world picture involves having correct ideas
>>>>>>>>>> about orders of magnitude, and relevance or irrelevance.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If the tides exist, but are too small to be important, it isn't
>>>>>>>>> a reason
>>>>>>>>> to deny their very existence.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Or do you also include a note on the phases of the moon
>>>>>>>>>> in your electronics measurements?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As a graduate student I used to joke that I ought to include it
>>>>>>>>> in my
>>>>>>>>> reaction data. I certainly need to record a lot of data that
>>>>>>>>> didn't look
>>>>>>>>> directly relevant
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's easy to imagine that they won't be significant.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Imagining is always easy.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's a lot easier than doing plasma stability calculations.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> A turbulent plasma threaded by magnetic fields is not going
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to behave
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in a way that is going to be easy to analyse.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Indeed. Those in fusion research know all too well.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And are very willing to tell people how difficult it is.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sure, any excuse for not having a fusion reactor yet will do.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The people I was in contact with - for a very different project -
>>>>>>>>> actually got their machine to fuse a few nuclei. They'd put off
>>>>>>>>> doing it
>>>>>>>>> until they'd got all the data they really needed because the
>>>>>>>>> neutron
>>>>>>>>> flux was high enough to leave insides of the machine dangerously
>>>>>>>>> radioactive, but it made for a nice sign-off press release.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know, in tradition. They are good at press releases over there.
>>>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A_sun_of_our_own_newspaper_headline.jpg>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Enough said.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure. You  want to dismiss me as crank.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a misunderstanding on your part.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am telling you that you are behaving like one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sci.physics.relativity has
>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough cranks to make it a plausible strategy, and I've been
>>>>>>>>>>>>> exploiting
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it myself, but I'm probably not enough of a crank for it to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not about what you are, it is about how you are behaving,
>>>>>>>>>>>> (on this particular point)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I do take care not to behave too much like a crank.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> FYI, you are behaving too much like a crank on this.
>>>>>>>>>> No better than for example TH on his growing Earth.
>>>>>>>>>> Is it really too hard for you to admit for once that you goofed?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have no problem admitting that I've goofed when I actually have
>>>>>>>>> goofed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, you did.
>>>>>>>> May I remind you that we started out this sub-thread with your:
>>>>>>>> ========================================================================
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gravity applies a force. That isn't doing work. The earth orbits
>>>>>>>> the sun
>>>>>>>> without doing much work at all. The consequent tidal forces
>>>>>>>> inside the
>>>>>>>> sun sap kinetic energy from the earth's orbital movement, in the
>>>>>>>> same
>>>>>>>> way that tides on earth are causing the moons orbit to change.
>>>>>>>> ========================================================================
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is just plain wrong.
>>>>>>>> The cause is the dragging of the tidal bulges on Earth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What I posted was less specific than " The cause is the dragging
>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>> tidal bulges on Earth" but it's not wrong. You can't have tidal
>>>>>>> bulges
>>>>>>> without a tide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your
>>>>>> ============================================================================
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 'The consequent tidal forces inside the sun sap kinetic energy from
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> earth's orbital movement'
>>>>>> ============================================================================
>>>>>>
>>>>>> is competely wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> If earth creates tides in the sun, won't that warm up the sun and slow
>>>>> down earth? Conservation of energy and all that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pretty small at this distance, I expect. One estimate is that solar
>>>>> tides increase the earth-sun distance about a micron per year. Not to
>>>>> worry, I guess.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My feeling is that you are now acting more like a crank than I did.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You might consider applying the First Law of Holes?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It strikes me that it you who is digging yourself into a hole, and
>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>> time you post another specious claim, you are looking even more
>>>>>>> like a
>>>>>>> crank.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OK, you don't understand the tides, and you don't want to learn,
>>>>>> and you'll never admit to a mistake, no matter what.
>>>>>> We can leave it at that,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PS, and just for s.e.d readers, is he like that over there too?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> His mission in life is to tell everyone how stupid and wrong they are.
>>>>>
>>>>> John Larkin
>>>>> Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
>>>>> Lunatic Fringe Electronics
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just seems he either doesn't think there's demonstrated competence,
>>>> or an error occurred without explaining why it's not.
>>>>
>>>> Not so different from usual sock-puppet trolls, who usually
>>>> fail and bail on their first mis-step, as otherwise all the
>>>> instances that came before them were immediately sent to
>>>> the exit state.
>>>>
>>>> What a cruel world it must be.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Being constantly nasty is boring.
>>
>> John Larkin is only nasty when he doesn't get the flattery he expects,
>> but that happens quite a lot.
>>
>
>Ah, yet over on sci.math, we had Ross and Virgil, who eventually
>came to, if not open agreement, at least not open disagreement,
>and, in a sense, agreement.
>
>
>What do you disagree about? Presuming otherwise that physics,
>mathematics, and so on is otherwise "agreeable".

I design electronics and I like to discuss it. I help people with
their probelms and I like to "design in public", namely post real
circuits that we can bat around. Sloman doesn't approve of such
behavior.

I think we have a common problem: some intelligent, highly educated
people never have ideas, and some less worthy folks do. The worthies
resent the people who have ideas.

>
>I rather have a good estimation of both of you which is perhaps
>naive yet besides that I think that about nobody or very, very
>few actually have a good and thorough account of theory, you
>can each have good accounts of theory.

I don't use much theory. I actually took an integral,about 20 years
ago, but it just confirmed a number that was estimated well enough.

I design mostly based in instinct and simulation. The real value of
all those college courses (physics, math, economics, circuit theory,
psychology, communications theory, control theory,
signals-and-systems, beginners tumbling) was to train the instiincts.

Electronics design is not science. We do use science if it helps.


>
>Oftentimes irritation among otherwise reasonable, socialized
>people gets ingrained, or engrained, yet there's something
>to be said for bygones and the re-setting and the face-saving
>and so on.
>
>
>Anyways, is there any actual arguments about electronics or
>something? That then everyone could pile on. Or, perhaps
>there's an account for the "Solomonic Judgment" if that's
>widely known to everybody.

I recently posted an idea for a fast frequency divider. No response.

s.e.d. , like most of usenet, is pretty much dead. Being unmoderated,
the endless flamefests drove most sensible people away.

>
>
>The Internet doesn't need for tit-for-tat trolls,
>yet, what's really of a great account is the
>rehabilitation of the trolling.
>
>

John Larkin
Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
Lunatic Fringe Electronics

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Thread

Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-03-06 09:37 +0100
  Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-07 00:36 +1100
    Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-06 07:47 -0800
      Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-07 17:12 +1100
        Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-07 06:59 -0800
          Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-08 11:33 +1100
            Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-07 19:19 -0800
              Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-09 01:44 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-08 08:29 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-09 12:52 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-08 20:04 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-08 20:17 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-10 00:09 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 07:36 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 09:09 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-10 14:29 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-10 14:17 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-10 21:21 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-10 23:57 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-11 16:14 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-11 08:13 +0100
                Re: energy and mass "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2026-03-11 13:50 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-11 14:39 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 00:24 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-11 16:10 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 16:07 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-12 07:11 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 18:26 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-12 09:56 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 22:22 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-12 12:56 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-13 03:36 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-12 23:20 +0100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-12 14:16 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-13 03:45 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-12 21:58 +0100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-11 18:45 +0100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-11 11:20 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-03-12 10:35 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 22:29 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-03-13 10:24 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-14 03:42 +1100
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-15 21:42 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-16 21:50 +1100
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-16 08:55 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-17 18:06 +1100
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-17 01:14 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 00:29 +1100
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-17 10:34 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 15:49 +1100
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-18 00:27 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 21:00 +1100
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-18 11:07 -0700
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-18 11:47 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-19 15:14 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-19 07:47 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-19 18:11 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-19 15:07 +1100
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-18 23:07 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-19 18:24 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-19 09:31 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-19 20:38 +1100
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-19 11:54 -0700
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-20 11:59 -0700
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-20 15:28 -0700
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-22 12:12 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-23 23:05 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-21 16:23 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-19 07:47 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 07:32 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-11 15:56 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-11 11:20 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 10:59 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 11:41 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 13:18 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-09 23:59 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 07:32 -0700
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-09 21:49 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 15:24 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-10 15:37 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 22:07 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-10 16:58 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 23:26 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-10 09:25 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-11 04:33 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-10 10:45 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-11 16:26 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-11 08:19 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 00:34 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-11 16:10 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 16:16 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-12 07:13 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 18:39 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-12 09:58 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-12 10:17 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 22:42 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-12 13:03 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-13 03:50 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-12 23:23 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-12 07:05 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 22:31 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-11 08:38 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-11 08:55 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-11 00:28 -0700
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-10 21:45 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-11 03:36 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-10 10:13 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-11 16:51 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-10 21:21 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-10 14:51 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-10 21:21 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-11 17:02 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-11 11:20 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 01:00 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-11 18:45 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-11 12:48 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 16:33 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-12 11:51 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-13 04:09 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-12 21:58 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-13 17:36 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-13 22:05 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-13 14:55 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-13 21:29 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-15 03:49 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-15 21:57 +0100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-15 14:18 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-15 17:24 -0700
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-15 18:10 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-16 14:49 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 05:14 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-17 01:52 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 08:04 -0700
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-16 08:32 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-17 18:24 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-17 10:49 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 00:43 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-17 15:35 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 03:33 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-17 17:39 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 06:36 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-17 20:41 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 21:10 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-18 11:37 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 23:29 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-18 13:37 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-17 07:48 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 03:58 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-16 14:47 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-17 21:21 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 15:56 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-18 13:05 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 23:25 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-16 14:41 +1100
      Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-14 20:14 -0700
        Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-15 16:16 +1100
          Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-15 06:58 -0700
            Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-15 08:13 -0700
          Re: energy and mass Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-03-15 17:01 +0100
            Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-15 09:39 -0700
              Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-15 09:55 -0700
              Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-16 15:16 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 05:21 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-17 02:10 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 10:56 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 11:29 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-17 18:44 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-17 07:57 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 04:25 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-17 18:35 +1100
            Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-16 15:01 +1100
              Re: energy and mass Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-03-16 11:00 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-17 02:18 +1100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-16 08:34 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 11:02 -0700
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-17 07:20 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-17 08:12 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 06:56 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-17 14:47 -0700
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-16 22:24 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-17 18:49 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-17 08:03 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 04:37 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-17 14:43 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 16:05 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 07:39 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 09:07 -0700
          Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-03-18 09:11 +0100
            Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 21:28 +1100
              Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-03-19 12:10 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-20 01:35 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-19 07:44 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-19 07:52 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 09:42 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 09:58 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 10:28 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-03-20 11:00 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-21 02:54 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-03-22 10:31 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-22 22:21 +1100
                Re: energy and mass liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-03-22 21:23 +0000
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-23 21:51 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-03-23 09:21 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-23 22:31 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-23 08:11 -0700
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-19 11:17 -0700
    Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-03-08 09:53 +0100
      Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-09 02:07 +1100

csiph-web