Re: energy and mass

From	The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity, sci.electronics.design
Subject	Re: energy and mass
Date	2026-02-12 11:28 -0800
Organization	The Starmaker Organization
Message-ID	<698E29F1.72A1@ix.netcom.com> (permalink)
References	(6 earlier) <hignok9mgdv6m1g84662bekro4je9sjm0s@4ax.com> <10mkm4g$fm1r$1@gwaiyur.mb-net.net> <j3trokpcd3babrg58d4drbrtl8difoh00t@4ax.com> <1rqfmxt.jp4fr16u1qtvN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> <fk8sok1t8vbe7r6nhgl5v8eidkl7mnbcns@4ax.com>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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john larkin wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 12 Feb 2026 19:39:50 +0100, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
> Lodder) wrote:
> 
> >john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 12 Feb 2026 14:55:27 +0100, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
> >> <PointedEars@web.de> wrote:
> >>
> >> >john larkin wrote:
> >> >> [...] (Stefan Ram) wrote:
> >> >>> john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote or quoted:
> >> >>>> Two gamma rays (zero mass total) can collide to produce a particle
> >> >>>> pair (which has mass.)
> >> >>>
> >> >>> [irrelevant and misleading/wrong calculation]
> >> >>
> >> >> The gamma rays had no gravitational effect on the rest of the mass in
> >> >> the universe,
> >> >
> >> >Wrong.
> >> >
> >> >> up until the instant that they collided
> >> >                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> >Nonsense.
> >> >
> >> >> to form a particle pair.
> >> >
> >> >Wrong.
> >> >
> >> >> Then a gravitational object magically appeared.
> >> >
> >> >Wrong.  Since the postulation and confirmation of general relativity we know
> >> >that gravitational effects are not (solely) based on mass, but rather more
> >> >generally on the density of stress, energy, and momentum:
> >> >
> >> >The Einstein Field Equations are in units where c = 1
> >> >
> >> >  G_ab + Lambda g_ab = 8pi G T_ab,
> >> >
> >> >where
> >> >
> >> >  G_ab = R_ab - 1/2 R g_ab
> >> >
> >> >is (a component of) the Einstein tensor, R_ab is the Ricci curvature tensor,
> >> >g_ab is the metric tensor, R = g^ab R_ab is the Ricci curvature scalar,
> >> >Lambda is the cosmological constant, and T_ab is the
> >> >(stress--)energy--momentum tensor.
> >> >
> >> >Gravitional effects are understood (in GR) as a consequence of the curvature
> >> >of spacetime which is described by the quantities on the left-hand side of
> >> >the equations.
> >> >
> >> >The energy--momentum tensor of a 1+3-dimensional spacetime has 16
> >> >components, but it is antisymmetric so only 10 of them are unique.  Anyhow,
> >> >the time--time component is proportional to the energy density which is at
> >> >relative rest is proportional to the mass density:
> >> >
> >> >  T_00 ~ rho_E ~ dE_0/dV = c^2 dm/dV = c^2 rho_m.
> >> >
> >> >> Does't that create a spherical, symmetric, expanding bubble of gravity?
> >> >
> >> >It does not.
> >> >
> >> >> I'm just an engineer,
> >> >
> >> >IOW: This is way over your head.
> >> >
> >> >As an engineer, though, you should appreciate the requirement to agree and
> >> >conform to standards.  That includes network standards which you keep
> >> >violating by your address munging:
> >> >
> >> ><https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5536.html#section-3.1.2>
> >> >
> >> >> but I think this is real.
> >> >
> >> >It is not.  You are arguing from your ignorance.
> >> >
> >> >> People say it's not technically possible,
> >> >
> >> >It is possible, just very difficult:
> >> >
> >> >The total energy of both photons has at least to be equal to the sum of the
> >> >rest energies of the particle and antiparticle.
> >> >
> >> >You would have to separate the particle and the antiparticle to prevent them
> >> >from annihilating again, which means that the total energy of both photons
> >> >has to be much larger than the sum of the rest energies of the particle and
> >> >the antiparticle.  You need energy for the magnetic fields that keep them
> >> >separated.
> >> >
> >> >> or that the efffect is too small to worry about,
> >> >
> >> >A single electron is not very useful, indeed, and you need more energy to
> >> >produce it this way than it could do usable work because it needs kinetic
> >> >energy *and* rest energy E_0 = m_e c^2.
> >> >
> >> >> or some other excuse for not saying that it could happen.
> >> >>
> >> >> There is an electrical equivalent. A metal sphere could suddenly
> >> >> become charged,
> >> >
> >> >No, the total electric charge is conserved.  What happens in "charging" is
> >> >that electric charge is added from or removed to somewhere else.
> >> >
> >> >Electric charge can also be "induced" by bringing an electrically charge in
> >> >the vicinity of an electrically neutral object.  Then the carriers of
> >> >electric charge in the formerly neutral object arrange themselves such that
> >> >the distribution of electric charge is no longer uniform:
> >> >
> >> >  .---------.     ,---------.
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (-) (+) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (-) (+) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (-) (+) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (-) (+) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (-) (+) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  '---------'     '---------'
> >> >
> >> >  Some time later:
> >> >
> >> >  .---------.     ,---------.
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  : (+) (-) :     : (+) (-) :
> >> >  '---------'     '---------'
> >> >
> >> >> and it would create a symmetric e-field pulse that
> >> >> expands at the speed of light, like a wave, but it isn't
> >> >> electromagnetic.
> >> >
> >> >Nonsense.  A changing electric field induces a magnetic field, and a
> >> >changing magnetic field induces an electric field:
> >> >
> >> >  ? ? B = ?? J + (1/c^2) ?E/?t,
> >> >  ? ? E = -?B/?t.
> >>
> >> Do photons have the same gravitational effects as their mass
> >> equivalents?
> >
> >Yes.
> >(there is no such thing as 'mass-equivalence, there is only mass-energy)
> 
> If e and m are the same thing, why do people use two symbols?


They are not the 'samething', they are two different things,  E and M.


Before the Big Bang only E existed.


The Big Bang was the creation of M.


fire and earth are two elements.











> 
> Do photons attract one another? Do they bounce off one another?
> 
> If you apply Newton's law of gravitation to photons, the force will be
> enormous when they get in a close intersection. Wouldn't that fuzz up
> images at cosmological distances?
> 
> Just asking.
> 
> John Larkin
> Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
> Lunatic Fringe Electronics

-- 
The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable,
to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable, 
and challenge the unchallengeable.

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usenet weirdness john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-09 09:48 -0800
  Re: usenet weirdness John Robertson <jrr@flippers.com> - 2026-02-09 10:59 -0800
  Re: usenet weirdness Glen Walpert <nospam@null.void> - 2026-02-09 19:32 +0000
    Re: usenet weirdness john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-09 13:50 -0800
  Re: usenet weirdness DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com> - 2026-02-09 16:02 -0500
    Re: usenet weirdness ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-09 21:43 +0000
    Re: usenet weirdness john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-09 13:55 -0800
  Re: usenet weirdness Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2026-02-10 10:30 +0000
    Re: usenet weirdness john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-10 07:42 -0800
      conservation laws (was: usenet weirdness) ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-10 16:56 +0000
      Re: usenet weirdness Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-02-10 20:22 +0000
        energy and mass (was: usenet weirdness) ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-10 20:32 +0000
          Re: energy and mass Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2026-02-10 21:36 +0000
            Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-11 02:11 +0100
          Re: energy and mass (was: usenet weirdness) Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-02-10 22:42 +0000
            Re: energy and mass (was: usenet weirdness) john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-10 15:40 -0800
        Re: usenet weirdness john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-10 13:44 -0800
          energy and mass (was: usenet weirdness) ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-10 21:58 +0000
            Re: energy and mass (was: usenet weirdness) john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-10 15:49 -0800
              Re: energy and mass (was: usenet weirdness) Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-02-11 01:19 +0000
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-11 16:32 +0100
              Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-11 15:23 +0100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-11 07:44 -0800
                Re: energy and mass liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-02-11 18:47 +0000
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-11 23:09 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-02-13 09:50 +0100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-13 07:23 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-14 03:51 +1100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-13 09:52 -0800
                Re: energy and mass ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-13 18:06 +0000
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-13 10:17 -0800
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-13 10:56 -0800
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-13 23:40 +0100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-13 23:40 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-14 06:52 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-13 23:40 +0100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-13 21:03 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-14 22:42 +1100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-14 08:06 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-15 05:07 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-02-14 11:02 +0100
                Re: energy and mass "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2026-02-14 11:52 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-14 11:57 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-02-15 09:54 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-15 08:23 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-15 13:19 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-02-17 10:29 +0100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-15 22:30 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-02-18 16:22 +0100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-18 22:21 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-02-19 00:25 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-19 22:03 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-19 08:03 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-20 05:10 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-02-19 21:04 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-20 18:04 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-02-20 01:04 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-20 23:00 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-02-20 22:06 -0800
                Re: energy and mass liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-02-21 09:31 +0000
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-21 22:48 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-19 12:26 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-02-20 08:23 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-02-20 01:16 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-02-22 10:38 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-14 04:17 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-14 04:29 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-14 04:35 -0800
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-14 08:10 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-15 05:39 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-02-17 09:53 +0100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-17 12:49 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-17 09:29 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-17 18:47 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-17 10:37 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-18 15:35 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-18 10:37 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-18 10:57 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-18 20:56 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-18 12:32 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-18 11:06 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-18 11:13 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2026-02-18 20:43 +0000
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-18 12:49 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-18 12:54 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-18 12:57 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-19 21:06 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-19 08:08 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-19 08:22 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-20 05:19 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-19 10:25 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-20 18:19 +1100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-20 10:56 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-21 14:52 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-21 11:19 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-21 22:54 +1100
                Re: energy and mass "Don" <g@crcomp.net> - 2026-02-20 14:16 +0000
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-20 11:56 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-19 21:02 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-19 20:52 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-19 11:56 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-19 23:39 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-19 14:13 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-20 02:47 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-19 21:41 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-20 18:26 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-20 11:35 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-20 23:09 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-20 13:30 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-21 03:20 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-20 11:35 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-21 03:43 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-20 11:37 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-21 15:09 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-20 21:47 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-21 15:29 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-21 11:19 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-21 23:12 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-21 14:58 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-21 05:59 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-22 17:04 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-22 14:19 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-23 02:25 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-22 11:01 -0800
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-19 08:54 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-20 18:32 +1100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-20 08:46 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-21 15:39 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-20 21:31 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-21 23:23 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-21 05:06 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-22 15:27 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-21 23:18 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-22 20:20 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-22 03:11 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-22 03:24 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-23 02:42 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-22 10:30 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-02-19 14:36 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-19 07:56 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-20 03:00 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-19 07:49 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-20 05:30 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-19 07:46 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-20 05:40 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-19 21:41 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-19 15:52 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-20 15:22 +0100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-19 11:27 -0800
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-19 21:41 +0100
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-02-19 17:48 -0800
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-02-20 01:35 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Arie de Muijnck <noreply@ademu.nl> - 2026-02-20 08:19 +0100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-20 11:35 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-02-19 22:11 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2026-02-19 16:52 -0500
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-19 23:57 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-19 15:49 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-19 20:45 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-19 07:44 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-20 06:19 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-19 21:41 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-19 15:48 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-20 18:45 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-20 08:47 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-21 05:31 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-20 10:52 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-20 11:13 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-21 16:11 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-20 21:41 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-20 21:52 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-21 23:56 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-21 05:20 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-21 05:34 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-22 15:47 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-22 15:37 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-21 23:35 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-21 05:08 -0800
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-21 12:46 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-22 15:52 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-21 15:56 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-20 22:03 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-20 22:12 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-22 00:08 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-21 05:40 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-22 15:58 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-21 23:25 -0800
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-22 11:25 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-23 02:55 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-22 00:01 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-21 12:46 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-22 16:06 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-22 11:25 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-23 03:20 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-02-20 20:09 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-20 11:21 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-21 16:16 +0100
                Cardinalities of sets (was: energy and mass) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-21 16:16 +0100
                Re: Cardinalities of sets Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-21 08:14 -0800
                Re: Cardinalities of sets Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-21 08:30 -0800
                Re: Cardinalities of sets Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-21 08:51 -0800
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-20 21:47 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-20 18:48 -0800
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-21 11:19 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-21 04:52 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-02-20 08:29 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-17 23:28 +1100
                Re: energy and mass liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-02-14 10:19 +0000
                Re: energy and mass ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-18 02:51 +0000
                Re: energy and mass Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-02-18 09:53 +0100
                Re: energy and mass liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-02-20 15:12 +0000
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-20 09:05 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-21 05:34 +1100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-20 19:27 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-21 16:55 +1100
                Re: energy and mass ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-11 19:17 +0000
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-11 23:09 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-11 14:11 -0800
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-12 11:12 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-12 08:43 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-12 09:41 -0800
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-13 11:27 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-13 10:14 -0800
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-11 14:39 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2026-02-12 09:39 +0000
                Re: energy and mass Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-02-12 13:42 +0000
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-12 16:20 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-14 04:10 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-13 23:40 +0100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-13 15:15 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-18 21:26 +1100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-12 07:38 -0800
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-12 08:21 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-14 04:26 +1100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-13 10:00 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-14 15:27 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-13 23:40 +0100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-12 19:39 +0100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-12 11:11 -0800
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-12 22:29 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2026-02-14 18:59 -0500
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-14 04:19 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-02-13 10:03 +0100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-13 11:59 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-14 04:41 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-13 20:57 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-14 15:22 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-13 23:40 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-02-14 11:17 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2026-02-14 10:20 +0000
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-14 23:11 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-14 14:21 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-02-15 10:07 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-15 23:44 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-15 07:34 -0800
                Re: energy and mass "Don" <g@crcomp.net> - 2026-02-15 18:41 +0000
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-15 13:18 -0800
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-15 21:48 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-02-17 10:16 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-17 23:41 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-02-18 16:39 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-19 03:38 +1100
                Re: energy and mass athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-02-17 16:45 +0000
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-17 09:04 -0800
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-17 22:31 +0100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-17 14:56 -0800
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-18 10:37 +0100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-18 07:35 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-19 03:49 +1100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-18 09:00 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> - 2026-02-18 18:35 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2026-02-18 12:58 -0500
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-18 11:10 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-19 21:09 +1100
                Re: energy and mass liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-02-19 14:00 +0000
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-20 03:11 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-12 11:12 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-14 04:01 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-13 23:40 +0100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-13 15:24 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-14 15:39 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-11 17:21 +0100
              Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-12 14:55 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-12 14:58 +0100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-12 07:43 -0800
                Re: energy and mass ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-12 16:23 +0000
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-12 08:44 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2026-02-12 12:12 -0500
                Re: energy and mass ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-12 17:15 +0000
                Re: energy and mass ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-13 13:45 +0000
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-14 05:12 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-13 20:26 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-12 22:08 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-12 22:57 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-13 00:33 +0100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-12 19:39 +0100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-12 11:04 -0800
                Re: energy and mass ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-12 19:22 +0000
                Re: energy and mass ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-12 20:16 +0000
                Re: energy and mass DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com> - 2026-02-12 15:50 -0500
                Re: energy and mass ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-12 21:29 +0000
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-13 01:12 +0100
                Re: energy and mass DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com> - 2026-02-12 20:59 -0500
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-13 03:15 +0100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-13 11:27 +0100
                Re: energy and mass DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com> - 2026-02-13 10:09 -0500
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-13 17:39 +0100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-13 23:40 +0100
                Re: energy and mass ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-13 10:29 +0000
                Re: energy and mass DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com> - 2026-02-13 10:21 -0500
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-13 17:34 +0100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-12 23:12 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-12 23:27 +0100
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-02-12 11:28 -0800
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-12 22:29 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-14 05:22 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-13 19:58 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-13 09:50 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-12 22:03 +0100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-12 23:12 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-14 05:34 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-13 20:35 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-14 16:05 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-14 22:57 +0100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-14 21:59 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-15 17:50 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-15 12:47 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-15 23:51 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-15 21:48 +0100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-15 08:13 -0800
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-02-15 21:48 +0100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-15 13:11 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-14 05:00 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-13 10:19 -0800
              Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-14 03:17 +1100
                Re: energy and mass ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-13 16:20 +0000
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-14 07:20 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-14 03:31 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-02-13 21:50 +0100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-13 15:03 -0800
                Re: energy and mass ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-13 23:35 +0000
                Re: energy and mass Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-02-14 10:47 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-14 15:21 +0100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-14 07:58 -0800
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-02-14 07:54 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-02-14 18:01 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> - 2026-02-14 20:52 +0100
                Re: energy and mass ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-15 17:20 +0000
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-02-16 13:08 +1100
                Re: energy and mass x <x@x.net> - 2026-02-14 15:38 -0800
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-02-14 03:36 +0100
        Re: usenet weirdness Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2026-02-10 22:06 +0000

csiph-web