Re: Improved memory management? (10.11)

Subject	Re: Improved memory management? (10.11)
Newsgroups	comp.sys.mac.system
References	(17 earlier) <slrnn1nlg0.hr4.g.kreme@amelia.local> <p4OdnSzDf94dfIbLnZ2dnUU7-dWdnZ2d@giganews.com> <slrnn1oe4c.lvf.g.kreme@amelia.local> <z-KdnRsaPdgODIDLnZ2dnUU7-fWdnZ2d@giganews.com> <slrnn1s2vd.4v8.g.kreme@amelia.local>
From	Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca>
Date	2015-10-14 19:01 -0400
Message-ID	<ld-dnWQhsZ0mQ4PLnZ2dnUU7-ROdnZ2d@giganews.com> (permalink)

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On 2015-10-14 03:59, Lewis wrote:
> In message <z-KdnRsaPdgODIDLnZ2dnUU7-fWdnZ2d@giganews.com>
>    Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
>> On 2015-10-12 18:45, Lewis wrote:
>>> In message <p4OdnSzDf94dfIbLnZ2dnUU7-dWdnZ2d@giganews.com>
>>>     Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>> On 2015-10-12 11:45, Lewis wrote:
>>>>> In message <VKudnftXRPPVKIbLnZ2dnUU7-VOdnZ2d@giganews.com> Alan
>>>>> Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2015-10-11 23:24, Lewis wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <-dydnRiSCti2cofLnZ2dnUU7-S2dnZ2d@giganews.com> Alan
>>>>>>> Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2015-10-11 18:58, JF Mezei wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2015-10-11 17:13, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There's an observable improvement: no swaps occur.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Unless you know why swaps occured before, you can't really
>>>>>>>>> know about the imporvements. Your appls may simply be running
>>>>>>>>> with less memory and thus perform not as well as if they were
>>>>>>>>> allowed to take more memory (and shove other processes to
>>>>>>>>> disk while doing that memory intensive task)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The main indication of an issue is the system slowing down.
>>>>>>>> Lots of memory leaves lots of free memory.  All apps and OS are
>>>>>>>> happy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Free RAM is wasted RAM.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Not if it guarantees that swapping will be reduced or not occur at
>>>>>> all.
>>>>>
>>>>> Still wrong.
>>>
>>>> How can it be wrong.
>>>
>>> Because you keep claiming that the existence of swap is a *negative*,
>>> and that is wrong. You did not start off saying "I don't need it" you
>>> started off saying this slows my system down and so I disabled it". That
>>> is *wrong*.
>
>> It may not be as bad as I originally stated in terms of performance
>
> As in what you originally stated was 100% totally incontrovertibly in
> every possible way by any possible measure wrong?
>
> Yes. Good you finally admit it.
>
>> (yet I still remember OS X with 2 GB of memory and then it was
>> measurably slowing the system ... no choice ... needed it due to lack
>> of physical RAM v. memory demand).
>
> Not talking about the past here. Stop goal shifting. If you want to
> complain about VM performance in 10.5 or 10.6 you go right ahead. But
> your misinformation and flat-out lies about VM in 10.10 and 10.11 will
> not stand.
>
>> Today, on my system, it is simply not needed.
>
> Don't care about that, only care about your lies about it degrading your
> system and the "measurable improvement" from disabling swap. This is
> not true. Period.
>
> You want to turn off swap, you go right ahead. It's your computer.
>
> You tell people that turning it off is a good idea? No. Telling people
> in "measurably improves" performance? No. These are lies and
> misinformation that indicate you've no clue what you are talking about.
>
>>>> With 89% "free" of 24 GB, swap isn't really needed.
>>>
>>> Again, not the issue at all.
>
>> Sure it is.
>
> It may be YOUR issue. It is not the issue that I have been talking
> about. I don't give a fuck if you need or don't need swap on YOUR
> computer. I only care about your continuous stream of bullshit on the
> issue.
>
>>> You have repeatedly claimed that any swap is bad and that the OS is
>>> wrong to create swap files when memory is available. You claim that
>>> preventing the compute from using swap improves performance
>>> "measurably". You claim that the existence of swap files means the
>>> system is using your disk instead of using available RAM.
>>>
>>> All of these assertions you have made repeatedly are *wrong*.
>
>> Hang on there cowboy.  I've been very careful to point out that no swap
>> is fine when there is ample extra memory and for my particular use of
>> the machine.  Anyone who wants to do this has to understand that.
>
> You have repeatedly said that disabling swap led to a "measurable
> improvement" in your system performance.
>
> This is a lie.

The measurement is the fact that it happened.  100's of MB written when 
nothing needed to be written.

That is a plain fact.

Did it cause _noticeable_ delays.  I can't say.

Did it cause measurable slowdowns, I can't say if I didn't notice them.

(See my reply to Barry re my 2007 iMac and this iMac with different 
amounts of RAM).


>
>> Swap is a creature of the 50's that hung around in increasing
>> sophistication over the decades as memory allocation was always large
>> than physical RAM.  The tipping point has been reached.  There is less
>> and less need for swap and the trend shows no sign of reversing.
>
> Go ahead, ramp up your memory usage on a machine you've disabled swap on
> until you run out of memory and see what happens. I dare ya. I
> double-dare ya.
>
> Hint: don't do it on a system with critical anything on it, the results
> are not pretty. The last unix-based system I saw that ran out of RAM
> with no swap required a bare-metal reinstall as the system dumped
> pagefiles all over the hard drive, destroying the catalog and rendering
> the system useless in a matter of seconds.

Sounds like BS to me.  If swap is disabled then the system should not 
dump pagefiles to disk.[Oh - but wait until below...].  It should hang, 
or crash, or panic.  Some un posted files may be lost.


>
> Granted, that was quite a while ago and it happened because the
> dedicated drive used for swap had died and the machine didn't have
> enough free memory to rewrite the catalog file properly.
>
> Still, bad things.

It looks like you really don't understand swapping.  What you describe 
above was on a system with swap _enabled_ but that disk died - that 
could cause all manner of something (not sure what).

I'm talking about swap _disabled_.

And came nowhere close to full RAM.  Of course I've made it clear from 
the start that this is not appropriate for machines w/o lots of RAM.

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Thread

Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-11 02:13 +0000
  Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-11 10:17 -0400
    Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-10-11 14:44 -0400
      Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-11 14:54 -0400
        Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-11 19:51 +0000
          Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-11 16:11 -0400
            Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-11 20:21 +0000
              Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-11 16:23 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-11 21:01 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-11 17:13 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-11 21:47 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-11 19:13 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2015-10-11 20:44 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 03:23 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2015-10-12 10:02 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 15:40 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 12:28 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 09:05 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 15:51 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 12:45 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2015-10-12 15:07 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 15:39 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-10-12 14:34 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-12 02:38 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 09:10 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 15:51 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 12:49 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-12 16:20 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 12:56 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 22:49 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-13 19:20 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-14 08:01 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-14 19:02 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 03:20 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 09:24 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-10-12 14:40 +0100
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 15:37 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 12:23 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 22:39 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2015-10-12 20:15 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-10-13 00:21 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-13 20:26 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-14 08:04 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-14 19:06 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-13 19:10 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-14 07:48 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-14 18:54 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-14 23:15 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-14 20:55 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-10-12 14:21 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-10-11 18:58 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-11 19:22 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 03:24 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 09:27 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 15:45 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 12:36 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-12 16:43 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 12:58 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 22:45 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-13 19:19 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-14 07:59 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-14 19:01 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-10-15 00:17 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-15 13:33 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-10-12 19:26 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-13 20:17 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-10-14 17:57 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-14 18:13 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-14 19:09 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 03:18 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 09:17 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 15:25 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 12:10 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-11 21:11 +0000
            Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-10-11 18:55 -0400
              Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-11 19:21 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-10-12 14:23 -0400
    Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-11 21:10 +0000
      Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-11 17:34 -0400
        Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) John Somerset <somerset@nospam.com> - 2015-10-11 18:17 -0400
          Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-11 19:15 -0400
            Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) John Somerset <somerset@nospam.com> - 2015-10-11 19:58 -0400
              Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 08:58 -0400
            Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 03:16 +0000
              Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 09:15 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-10-12 14:17 +0100
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 15:20 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 12:05 -0400
        Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 03:15 +0000
          Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 09:13 -0400
            Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 15:18 +0000
              Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 12:04 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 22:33 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-13 18:59 -0400

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