Re: Improved memory management? (10.11)

Subject	Re: Improved memory management? (10.11)
Newsgroups	comp.sys.mac.system
References	(17 earlier) <slrnn1nl1v.hr4.g.kreme@amelia.local> <0bednX359dPtQ4bLnZ2dnUU7-cmdnZ2d@giganews.com> <slrnn1odof.lvf.g.kreme@amelia.local> <PrCdnRLNkIDgEoDLnZ2dnUU7-audnZ2d@giganews.com> <slrnn1s2a0.4v8.g.kreme@amelia.local>
From	Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca>
Date	2015-10-14 18:54 -0400
Message-ID	<98CdnWiH3IehQIPLnZ2dnUU7-c2dnZ2d@giganews.com> (permalink)

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On 2015-10-14 03:48, Lewis wrote:
> In message <PrCdnRLNkIDgEoDLnZ2dnUU7-audnZ2d@giganews.com>
>    Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
>> On 2015-10-12 18:39, Lewis wrote:
>>> In message <0bednX359dPtQ4bLnZ2dnUU7-cmdnZ2d@giganews.com>
>>>     Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>> On 2015-10-12 11:37, Lewis wrote:
>>>>> In message <VKudnfhXRPMCKYbLnZ2dnUU7-VOdnZ2d@giganews.com>
>>>>>      Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2015-10-11 23:20, Lewis wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <-dydnR2SCtiTcIfLnZ2dnUU7-S2dnZ2d@giganews.com>
>>>>>>>       Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2015-10-11 17:47, Jolly Roger wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2015-10-11, Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2015-10-11 17:01, Jolly Roger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2015-10-11, Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2015-10-11 16:21, Jolly Roger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2015-10-11, Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2015-10-11 15:51, Jolly Roger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2015-10-11, Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. As I've mentioned in the past I've operated OS X with both swap and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> compression disabled to no ill effect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What effects were there?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The system worked fine, which is an acceptable effect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Was the system working fine before you disabled swap and compression?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yep.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I was under the impression there was a measurable improvement.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There's an observable improvement: no swaps occur.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, that's an effect with no apparent improvement in processing speed or
>>>>>>>>> efficiency.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A swap on my system is a hard disk write.  That takes time.  Whereas not
>>>>>>>> swapping takes 0 time.  Measurable?  I suppose it can be done but I
>>>>>>>> don't have the hooks into the OS to do it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Translation: I have no clue what I am talking about. None. At all.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Lewis grandstanding.  As subtle as a bull in china shop.  As always.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Do disk writes take time?  Sure do.  Prove otherwise or pack up.
>>>>>
>>>>> In fact, swap writes do NOT take time because they are done when nothing
>>>>> else is being done; assuming that the system is running well and has
>>>>> plenty of RAM, of course.
>>>
>>>> I don't disagree with that.
>>>
>>> Strange, you've disagreed with it many times. Just a few minutes before
>>> posting this drivel, for example, where you said that writing to swap
>>> interferes with "whatever esle is going on."
>
>> You brought up the notion of preemptive swap and indeed, properly done,
>> it won't exact a penalty.  On the other hand it will not provide a
>> benefit if the mapped memory blocks are not actually ever allocated to
>> something else.  When there is enough RAM, there was no need for it.
>
> I did not "bring it up" you simply were ignorant of how VM in OS X works

The only thing I didn't mention was preemptive swapping.  Which I've 
proven to not be necessary in any case by operating OS X for about 3 
weeks straight in two back to back sessions w/o issue.

> and kept insisting that your comuter was "using swap" and "degrading
> your performance" and that disabling it caused a "measurable
> improvement."

The measurement is the plain fact that OS X swaps even when there is a 
lot of free RAM.  That is a plain fact.


>
>> Who gives a shit if the swap write occurs while nothing else is going
>> on.
>
> Well, since you seem to think it affects your computer's performance,
> you should.

Indeed I should when it's not necessary.


>
>>>> Fact remains: swap is not needed because there's far more memory than
>>>> needed to run the OS, the apps and their required data space.
>>>
>>> The fact is that you are in a panic over the use of swap slowing down
>>> your system which clearly indicates you have no fucking idea what is
>>> going on.
>
>> It is added load in one way or another.
>
> You are really grasping at straws here. You've gone from "degrades" and
> "measurable improvement" to amorphous "one way or another".
>
> You're still wrong though, the swap is written when nothing else is
> happening, so there is *zero* impact on performance.

Preemptive swap has no impact but if the memory were getting really full 
then swap would be induced by more immediate need.  That would be noticable.

Of course, with ample memory swap isn't needed AT ALL.

>
>> Turn it off (easily done before
>> 10.11) and nothing bad happens assuming there is enough RAM.
>
> And terrible things happen the instant you run out of RAM.

No.  At worst I'll lose a file.  At very worst I'll have to re-install 
the OS and recover files.  Mostly there will be so many other warnings 
that I'd begin shutting down apps and re-boot long before anything bad 
happened.

But really ... 3 week of running as I usually do including VM's and 
large apps with large data sets, + video, and the usual basic stuff 
loaded ... and no where near the need to swap.  It's just not needed 
(caveats as always:  lot's of RAM).


>
>>>> I know the facts on my computer.  Swap is not needed at all.  Proven.
>>>
>>> That is not what you started off with, you goalposting shifting sack of
>>> fecal dross. You claimed the use of swap was a negative on your system's
>>> performance, and that was a lie, is a lie, and will continue to be a
>>> lie.
>
>> Of course it's a negative.  If it's activity that is not needed then it
>> is a negative.
>
> Once again, you can have your own opinion. You cannot have your own
> facts.

That must sound astoundingly wise to you.  I just observe the fact that 
I don't need swap on this machine for my use.

>
>> The more you insult and accuse the more you stand out as a shrill idiot
>> who could likely be killed by the combination of an original thought and
>> a cold glass of water.  Please be careful when either occurs to be sure
>> the other isn't present.  Or at least make sure your Will is up to date.
>
> Uh huh. You are willfully ignorant and continue to spout complete idiocy
> over and over again. You have no fucking clue what you are talking
> about. You have no fucking clue how VM works. You have lied repeatedly
> about the effects of disabling swap. Stop lying and I'll stop insulting
> you for being a liar.

Oh Lewis, you're really over reaching.  The sole fact I didn't know 
about was preemptive swapping.  (And yes I've heard of it in the past 
but that's the past).

The truth is the proof is always in the eating of the pudding and this 
pudding did not need to swap.  Didn't come close in 3 weeks of my usual 
light to heavy use.

I certainly did not lie, fib, distort, mislead about what happened:  6 
total weeks (±) in two sessions where swap did not occur because it was 
turned off.

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Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-11 02:13 +0000
  Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-11 10:17 -0400
    Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-10-11 14:44 -0400
      Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-11 14:54 -0400
        Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-11 19:51 +0000
          Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-11 16:11 -0400
            Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-11 20:21 +0000
              Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-11 16:23 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-11 21:01 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-11 17:13 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-11 21:47 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-11 19:13 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2015-10-11 20:44 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 03:23 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2015-10-12 10:02 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 15:40 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 12:28 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 09:05 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 15:51 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 12:45 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2015-10-12 15:07 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 15:39 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-10-12 14:34 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-12 02:38 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 09:10 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 15:51 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 12:49 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-12 16:20 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 12:56 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 22:49 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-13 19:20 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-14 08:01 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-14 19:02 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 03:20 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 09:24 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-10-12 14:40 +0100
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 15:37 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 12:23 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 22:39 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2015-10-12 20:15 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2015-10-13 00:21 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-13 20:26 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-14 08:04 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-14 19:06 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-13 19:10 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-14 07:48 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-14 18:54 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-14 23:15 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-14 20:55 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-10-12 14:21 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-10-11 18:58 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-11 19:22 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 03:24 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 09:27 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 15:45 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 12:36 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2015-10-12 16:43 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 12:58 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 22:45 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-13 19:19 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-14 07:59 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-14 19:01 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-10-15 00:17 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-15 13:33 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-10-12 19:26 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-13 20:17 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-10-14 17:57 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-14 18:13 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-14 19:09 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 03:18 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 09:17 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 15:25 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 12:10 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-11 21:11 +0000
            Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-10-11 18:55 -0400
              Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-11 19:21 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-10-12 14:23 -0400
    Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-11 21:10 +0000
      Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-11 17:34 -0400
        Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) John Somerset <somerset@nospam.com> - 2015-10-11 18:17 -0400
          Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-11 19:15 -0400
            Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) John Somerset <somerset@nospam.com> - 2015-10-11 19:58 -0400
              Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 08:58 -0400
            Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 03:16 +0000
              Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 09:15 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2015-10-12 14:17 +0100
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 15:20 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 12:05 -0400
        Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 03:15 +0000
          Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 09:13 -0400
            Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 15:18 +0000
              Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-12 12:04 -0400
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-10-12 22:33 +0000
                Re: Improved memory management? (10.11) Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-10-13 18:59 -0400

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