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KDE Goes Wayland

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  KDE Goes Wayland Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> - 2025-12-05 21:26 +0000
    Re: KDE Goes Wayland c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-12-05 23:30 -0500
      Re: KDE Goes Wayland rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-06 08:55 +0000
        Re: KDE Goes Wayland c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-12-06 04:20 -0500
          Re: KDE Goes Wayland The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-06 11:30 +0000
            Re: KDE Goes Wayland Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-14 01:48 +0000
              Re: KDE Goes Wayland rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-14 02:00 +0000
          Re: KDE Goes Wayland rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-06 19:58 +0000
          Re: KDE Goes Wayland "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-07 19:36 +0100
            Re: KDE Goes Wayland rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-07 19:09 +0000
        Re: KDE Goes Wayland Lester Thorpe <lt@gnu.rocks> - 2025-12-06 09:38 +0000
        Re: KDE Goes Wayland The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-06 11:27 +0000
          Re: KDE Goes Wayland rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-06 20:23 +0000
            Re: KDE Goes Wayland The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-07 11:35 +0000
              Re: KDE Goes Wayland rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-07 19:04 +0000
          Re: KDE Goes Wayland Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-13 08:38 +0000
            Re: KDE Goes Wayland Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-13 10:56 +0000
              Re: KDE Goes Wayland John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-12-15 09:39 -0800
                Re: KDE Goes Wayland vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> - 2025-12-15 18:12 +0000
      Re: KDE Goes Wayland Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> - 2025-12-06 15:44 +0000
      Re: KDE Goes Wayland kouya <kouyaheika@canithesis.org> - 2025-12-07 12:44 -0600
        Re: KDE Goes Wayland c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-12-07 22:08 -0500
          Re: KDE Goes Wayland The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-08 08:51 +0000
          Re: KDE Goes Wayland candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-12-08 18:40 +0000
            Re: KDE Goes Wayland Mike Scott <usenet.16@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> - 2025-12-08 19:12 +0000
              Re: KDE Goes Wayland rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-09 01:25 +0000
              Re: KDE Goes Wayland Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-15 03:07 +0000
                Re: KDE Goes Wayland rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-15 03:52 +0000
                  Re: KDE Goes Wayland Mike Scott <usenet.16@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> - 2025-12-15 09:01 +0000
                    Re: KDE Goes Wayland Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-15 22:52 +0000
            Re: KDE Goes Wayland Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> - 2025-12-08 20:00 +0000
            Re: KDE Goes Wayland not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2025-12-09 07:30 +1000
            Re: KDE Goes Wayland The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-09 09:59 +0000
              Re: KDE Goes Wayland Farley Flud <fsquared@fsquared.linux> - 2025-12-09 11:24 +0000
                Re: KDE Goes Wayland The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-09 14:17 +0000
                  Re: KDE Goes Wayland John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-12-09 08:15 -0800
                    Re: KDE Goes Wayland Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-15 03:08 +0000
                      Re: KDE Goes Wayland rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-15 04:03 +0000
                      Re: KDE Goes Wayland John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2025-12-15 10:22 -0800
                        Re: KDE Goes Wayland Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-15 22:53 +0000
                      Re: KDE Goes Wayland "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-12-15 16:09 -0500
                  Re: KDE Goes Wayland Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> - 2025-12-09 19:47 +0000
                Re: KDE Goes Wayland c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2025-12-09 20:40 -0500
                  Re: KDE Goes Wayland chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-12-10 10:58 -0600
                    Re: KDE Goes Wayland bonkmaykr <bonkyboo@canithesis.org> - 2025-12-12 16:38 -0600
                      Re: KDE Goes Wayland chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-12-15 18:16 -0600
                        Re: KDE Goes Wayland vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> - 2025-12-16 03:41 +0000
                          Re: KDE Goes Wayland Farley Flud <fsquared@fsquared.linux> - 2025-12-16 11:50 +0000
                            Re: KDE Goes Wayland The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-12-16 12:12 +0000
                          Re: KDE Goes Wayland CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-12-16 09:57 -0500
                            Re: KDE Goes Wayland vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> - 2025-12-17 04:42 +0000
                              Re: KDE Goes Wayland CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-12-17 09:31 -0500
                                Re: KDE Goes Wayland rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-12-17 19:34 +0000
                              Re: KDE Goes Wayland "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-18 14:49 +0100
                                Re: KDE Goes Wayland vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> - 2025-12-18 14:27 +0000
                                  Re: KDE Goes Wayland "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-19 21:46 +0100

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#78407

c186282 wrote:
> Wayland, at this point it's clear it will
> NEVER be ready for prime time. They've been
> at it forever and it's STILL all weird.

What is the general thought here about XLibre? The fork has made a lot of
progress and a ton of bugfixes that make X perfect in my daily experience.
XNamespaces, if anything ever uses them, makes the security principal
behind Wayland obscolete.

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#78455

On 12/7/25 13:44, kouya wrote:
> c186282 wrote:
>> Wayland, at this point it's clear it will
>>   NEVER be ready for prime time. They've been
>> at it forever and it's STILL all weird.
> 
> What is the general thought here about XLibre? The fork has made a lot of
> progress and a ton of bugfixes that make X perfect in my daily experience.
> XNamespaces, if anything ever uses them, makes the security principal
> behind Wayland obscolete.

   Still haven't tried it. Maybe someday.

   X *works* and is very well documented.

   Perhaps somebody, maybe with AI help, could
   create an "X2" ... de-clunked, tighter ... but
   still obeying all the old rules ?

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#78480

On 08/12/2025 03:08, c186282 wrote:
> On 12/7/25 13:44, kouya wrote:
>> c186282 wrote:
>>> Wayland, at this point it's clear it will
>>>   NEVER be ready for prime time. They've been
>>> at it forever and it's STILL all weird.
>>
>> What is the general thought here about XLibre? The fork has made a lot of
>> progress and a ton of bugfixes that make X perfect in my daily 
>> experience.
>> XNamespaces, if anything ever uses them, makes the security principal
>> behind Wayland obscolete.
> 
>    Still haven't tried it. Maybe someday.
> 
>    X *works* and is very well documented.
> 
>    Perhaps somebody, maybe with AI help, could
>    create an "X2" ... de-clunked, tighter ... but
>    still obeying all the old rules ?
> 
Well that is what Wayland purports to be. Obeying 'enough' of the old 
rule to make it usable.

Nothing to stop you back porting any others you like.

The great thing about open source, is if you dont like it, recode it 
yourself...


-- 
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to 
rule.
– H. L. Mencken, American journalist, 1880-1956

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#78508

c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote at 03:08 this Monday (GMT):
> On 12/7/25 13:44, kouya wrote:
>> c186282 wrote:
>>> Wayland, at this point it's clear it will
>>>   NEVER be ready for prime time. They've been
>>> at it forever and it's STILL all weird.
>> 
>> What is the general thought here about XLibre? The fork has made a lot of
>> progress and a ton of bugfixes that make X perfect in my daily experience.
>> XNamespaces, if anything ever uses them, makes the security principal
>> behind Wayland obscolete.
>
>    Still haven't tried it. Maybe someday.
>
>    X *works* and is very well documented.

Exactly, from what I've seen Wayland has some issues right now, and X11
works perfectly well.

>    Perhaps somebody, maybe with AI help, could
>    create an "X2" ... de-clunked, tighter ... but
>    still obeying all the old rules ?


The ai probably would make things worse

Maybe the XLibre fork could end up being the next X11?
-- 
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

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#78511

On 08/12/2025 18:40, candycanearter07 wrote:
> Exactly, from what I've seen Wayland has some issues right now, and X11
> works perfectly well.

I'm not sure matters are helped by non-working instructions like

https://linuxvox.com/blog/how-to-install-wayland-on-linux-mint/

which just stopped me logging on the screen when I made the lightdm change.


I do notice that there seems no way to pick a session type at the login 
screen. I'm almost sure there used to be a small button to press 
somewhere to choose.

(Mint mate 22.2)

-- 
Mike Scott
Harlow, England

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#78533

On Mon, 8 Dec 2025 19:12:14 +0000, Mike Scott wrote:

> On 08/12/2025 18:40, candycanearter07 wrote:
>> Exactly, from what I've seen Wayland has some issues right now, and X11
>> works perfectly well.
> 
> I'm not sure matters are helped by non-working instructions like
> 
> https://linuxvox.com/blog/how-to-install-wayland-on-linux-mint/
> 
> which just stopped me logging on the screen when I made the lightdm
> change.
> 
> 
> I do notice that there seems no way to pick a session type at the login
> screen. I'm almost sure there used to be a small button to press
> somewhere to choose.
> 
> (Mint mate 22.2)

It's a little obscure but it's there. My original install was from the 
MATE iso but I added i3 and Xfce. I just have to remember that at that 
point it's still a right handed mouse rather than the left handed one I 
have configured in the sessions.

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#79120

On Mon, 8 Dec 2025 19:12:14 +0000, Mike Scott wrote:

> I'm not sure matters are helped by non-working instructions like
>
> https://linuxvox.com/blog/how-to-install-wayland-on-linux-mint/
>
> which just stopped me logging on the screen when I made the lightdm
> change.

You can use journalctl --user (e.g. via SSH or a text console) to
watch the per-user logs as the login session is started, to see where
it is failing.

I was able to debug just such a session-login problem this way.

Also I found I preferred sddm to lightdm.

> I do notice that there seems no way to pick a session type at the
> login screen. I'm almost sure there used to be a small button to
> press somewhere to choose.
>
> (Mint mate 22.2)

Not sure why it would have disappeared for you?

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#79126

On Mon, 15 Dec 2025 03:07:10 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:

> On Mon, 8 Dec 2025 19:12:14 +0000, Mike Scott wrote:
> 
>> I'm not sure matters are helped by non-working instructions like
>>
>> https://linuxvox.com/blog/how-to-install-wayland-on-linux-mint/
>>
>> which just stopped me logging on the screen when I made the lightdm
>> change.
> 
> You can use journalctl --user (e.g. via SSH or a text console) to watch
> the per-user logs as the login session is started, to see where it is
> failing.
> 
> I was able to debug just such a session-login problem this way.
> 
> Also I found I preferred sddm to lightdm.
> 
>> I do notice that there seems no way to pick a session type at the login
>> screen. I'm almost sure there used to be a small button to press
>> somewhere to choose.
>>
>> (Mint mate 22.2)
> 
> Not sure why it would have disappeared for you?

MATE had it. I just finished a LM Cinnamon install and the button is there 
to select i3, i3 debug, or Cinnamon in the logon manager.

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#79143

On 15/12/2025 03:52, rbowman wrote:
....
>>
>>> I do notice that there seems no way to pick a session type at the login
>>> screen. I'm almost sure there used to be a small button to press
>>> somewhere to choose.
>>>
>>> (Mint mate 22.2)
>>
>> Not sure why it would have disappeared for you?
> 
> MATE had it. I just finished a LM Cinnamon install and the button is there
> to select i3, i3 debug, or Cinnamon in the logon manager.

It is odd. I've just checked on my laptop, and it's there. Not on my 
desktop box though, and they are nominally at least setup the same.

Anyway - I have a pet perl/Tk-based program, which I've just tried on 
the laptop with wayland. Fails at the first (can't connect to wayland-0 
at /usr/lib/.../MainWindow.pm line 53, or something similar; main window 
fails to appear).

It's a program I use a /lot/. So it's a big no to wayland,thank you.

(The same program also has a helper to inject X11 events; that doesn't 
work either of course. (It takes a home-made usb footpedal box and 
converts serial input to X keyboard events. One suspects anything like 
that is a no-no under wayland, from what I hear)


-- 
Mike Scott
Harlow, England

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#79224

On Mon, 15 Dec 2025 09:01:33 +0000, Mike Scott wrote:

> Anyway - I have a pet perl/Tk-based program, which I've just tried
> on the laptop with wayland. Fails at the first (can't connect to
> wayland-0 at /usr/lib/.../MainWindow.pm line 53, or something
> similar; main window fails to appear).
>
> It's a program I use a /lot/. So it's a big no to wayland,thank you.

You should still have XWayland running, for compatibility with
X11-centric apps like yours.

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#78513

On Mon, 8 Dec 2025 18:40:04 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

> 
> Maybe the XLibre fork could end up being the next X11?
>

A lot of users report no problems with XLibre.

You should install XLibre and report any issues to their
website.

But does your disto allow that?

That's the problem.  The big distros are deliberately suppressing
XLibre as they have suppressed alternatives to systemd.

The big distros have no interest in offering choice.  They
are committed only to their self-proclaimed concepts of "progress."


-- 
Gentoo: the only road to GNU/Linux freedom and perfection.

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#78519

In comp.os.linux.misc candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
> c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote at 03:08 this Monday (GMT):
>>    Perhaps somebody, maybe with AI help, could
>>    create an "X2" ... de-clunked, tighter ... but
>>    still obeying all the old rules ?
> 
> The ai probably would make things worse
> 
> Maybe the XLibre fork could end up being the next X11?

I sure hope not, but you probably mean XLibre being the next Xorg.
X11 is the protocol, Xorg/XLibre are implementations. The last
thing needed at this point is a pointless attempt to split the X
protocol in some incompatible way. Leave all that to the people
who want to play with Wayland, which I certainly don't.

Anyway before XLibre existed we already had "de-clunked,
tighter" X in the form of the TinyX servers abandoned by Xorg but
still somewhat maintained as forks, and they're really as efficient
as anyone could want. There's also NanoX which is done completely
from scratch but doesn't work with X11/Xlib like Xorg and friends,
so software has to be recompiled for it.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

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#78543

On 08/12/2025 18:40, candycanearter07 wrote:
> Exactly, from what I've seen Wayland has some issues right now, and X11
> works perfectly well.

That is standard for all new releases of anything.
Even my own software goes through 'revisions...:-)



-- 
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is 
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

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#78551

On Tue, 09 Dec 2025 09:59:41 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> 
> That is standard for all new releases of anything.
> Even my own software goes through 'revisions...:-)
>

But Wayland is not exactly a "new release."

Wayland development has been going on for close to TWENTY YEARS
and it still is not suitable as a reliable and versatile graphics
subsystem.

Furthermore, Wayland is not a project done by amateurs in their
spare time.  Wayland is supported by IBM/RedHat big bucks.

Wake me up when I couldn't distinguish X11 from Wayland by any practical
measure.


-- 
Hail Linux!  Hail FOSS!  Hail Stallman!

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#78567

On 09/12/2025 11:24, Farley Flud wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Dec 2025 09:59:41 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> 
>>
>> That is standard for all new releases of anything.
>> Even my own software goes through 'revisions...:-)
>>
> 
> But Wayland is not exactly a "new release."
> 
> Wayland development has been going on for close to TWENTY YEARS

17 years at most

> and it still is not suitable as a reliable and versatile graphics
> subsystem.
> 
That is your opinion. It is not a fact.

Peole seenm to be uisng it without too many issues

> Furthermore, Wayland is not a project done by amateurs in their
> spare time.  Wayland is supported by IBM/RedHat big bucks.
> 
> Wake me up when I couldn't distinguish X11 from Wayland by any practical
> measure.
> 
If there were no detectable differences there wouldn't be any point in 
having Wayland at all would there?

Seriously your logic needs  a semester or two in philosophy to sort out.


> 

-- 
There is nothing a fleet of dispatchable nuclear power plants cannot do 
that cannot be done worse and more expensively and with higher carbon 
emissions and more adverse environmental impact by adding intermittent 
renewable energy.

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#78576

On Tue, 9 Dec 2025 14:17:51 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> > Furthermore, Wayland is not a project done by amateurs in their
> > spare time.  Wayland is supported by IBM/RedHat big bucks.
> > 
> > Wake me up when I couldn't distinguish X11 from Wayland by any
> > practical measure.
> >   
> If there were no detectable differences there wouldn't be any point
> in having Wayland at all would there?
> 
> Seriously your logic needs  a semester or two in philosophy to sort
> out.

If a project is as open and direct about aiming to supplant and replace
another project as Wayland has been, expecting it to offer feature
parity with the thing it's replacing (and a relatively seamless switch
in terms of user experience) is entirely reasonable.

If this were Just Another FOSS Project, nobody would care that much
about missing features or wonky design choices - rather, them as did
care would ignore it, and the True Believers could continue on their
merry way. But Wayland specifically wants to be the Only Game In Town,
and Red Hat has been throwing its considerable weight behind that.
*That's* what gets people hacked off, here, and with good reason.

It's a rare day when FF of all people is the reasonable party in an
exchanged. Wonder if I should buy a lottery ticket.

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#79121

On Tue, 9 Dec 2025 08:15:11 -0800, John Ames wrote:

> If a project is as open and direct about aiming to supplant and
> replace another project as Wayland has been, expecting it to offer
> feature parity with the thing it's replacing (and a relatively
> seamless switch in terms of user experience) is entirely reasonable.

Not really. X11 is full of legacy baggage (e.g. graphics API) which needs 
to be dumped.

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#79127

On Mon, 15 Dec 2025 03:08:12 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Dec 2025 08:15:11 -0800, John Ames wrote:
> 
>> If a project is as open and direct about aiming to supplant and replace
>> another project as Wayland has been, expecting it to offer feature
>> parity with the thing it's replacing (and a relatively seamless switch
>> in terms of user experience) is entirely reasonable.
> 
> Not really. X11 is full of legacy baggage (e.g. graphics API) which
> needs to be dumped.

https://github.com/ShilohAntonyJohn/Snow

Someone with too much time on their hands. xsnow is a good example of what 
Wayland is trying to eliminate. With X you can know way too much about 
stuff that really isn't your business if you don't think independent 
processes should be chatting.

As I've said I don't have to maintain Motif code anymore so it doesn't 
make much difference to me. 

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#79173

On Mon, 15 Dec 2025 03:08:12 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

> > If a project is as open and direct about aiming to supplant and
> > replace another project as Wayland has been, expecting it to offer
> > feature parity with the thing it's replacing (and a relatively
> > seamless switch in terms of user experience) is entirely
> > reasonable.  
> 
> Not really. X11 is full of legacy baggage (e.g. graphics API) which
> needs to be dumped.

That may well be so, but if they make bad judgement calls about what is
or isn't needless cruft, they will learn that the hard way - as they've
recently done with things like application-directed window positioning,
which after years of insisting that You Don't Need That they're finally
having to admit that some people *do* need, because enough people told
them to jump in a lake that they had to worry about losing their bid
for adoption.

But if they'd been less blinkered and dogmatic from the get-go, they
might've realized that there are actually some very obvious and common
use cases for that, and not caused a protracted argument and hacked off
a bunch of potential users for no reason.

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#79225

On Mon, 15 Dec 2025 10:22:16 -0800, John Ames wrote:

> On Mon, 15 Dec 2025 03:08:12 -0000 (UTC)
> Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> If a project is as open and direct about aiming to supplant and
>>> replace another project as Wayland has been, expecting it to offer
>>> feature parity with the thing it's replacing (and a relatively
>>> seamless switch in terms of user experience) is entirely
>>> reasonable.
>>
>> Not really. X11 is full of legacy baggage (e.g. graphics API) which
>> needs to be dumped.
>
> That may well be so, but if they make bad judgement calls about what
> is or isn't needless cruft, they will learn that the hard way ...

That lesson has been learned over about 40 years of experience with
X11.

You will note that the development of Wayland has not exactly been
rushed.

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