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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #81125 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-01-14 21:54 +0000 |
| Last post | 2026-01-24 21:36 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 200 — 26 participants |
Back to article view | Back to comp.os.linux.misc
“7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-14 21:54 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-01-14 17:07 -0500
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-15 08:38 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-15 12:25 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-15 21:10 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-16 13:47 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-15 07:15 -0500
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-15 18:47 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2026-01-16 11:04 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-16 13:48 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-16 18:37 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-16 22:37 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-17 10:04 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-17 14:28 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-17 15:06 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-17 22:59 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-18 11:13 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-18 12:47 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-18 21:09 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-01-18 21:15 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-18 23:12 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-01-18 19:52 -0800
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-19 00:43 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-19 09:54 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-19 11:15 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-19 14:21 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-19 20:51 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-19 22:48 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-01-19 08:33 -0800
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-19 20:52 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-01-19 13:00 -0800
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-19 20:45 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-20 10:46 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-20 12:03 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-20 14:34 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-20 13:40 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-20 16:14 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-20 20:51 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-21 11:19 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-20 13:50 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-20 14:37 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-20 20:55 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-01-20 08:41 -0800
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-20 19:01 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-20 20:59 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-01-20 12:58 -0800
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” jayjwa <jayjwa@atr2.ath.cx.invalid> - 2026-01-19 13:10 -0500
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-17 10:02 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-16 18:23 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-16 07:43 -0500
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-16 14:51 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-16 18:13 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-14 23:58 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-15 03:14 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-01-15 00:27 -0500
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-15 18:58 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-15 21:04 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-16 13:39 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-16 21:07 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-16 22:28 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-16 21:33 +0000
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-01-17 10:39 +1000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-17 10:53 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2026-01-19 12:15 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-19 14:24 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-19 15:50 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-01-19 08:38 -0800
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-20 10:48 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-19 20:41 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-20 10:50 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2026-01-15 10:39 +0100
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-01-16 07:53 +1000
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2026-01-16 10:57 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-16 20:58 +0000
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-01-17 10:25 +1000
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-17 11:19 +0000
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-16 13:47 +0100
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-01-17 10:37 +1000
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-17 10:00 +0100
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-01-18 07:03 +1000
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-01-18 01:03 -0500
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-15 11:46 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-15 12:09 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2026-01-15 14:13 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-15 13:48 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” jayjwa <jayjwa@atr2.ath.cx.invalid> - 2026-01-15 11:22 -0500
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-15 21:05 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-15 22:35 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-01-17 12:03 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-15 18:58 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-16 08:39 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2026-01-16 11:06 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-15 07:09 -0500
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-15 18:50 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2026-01-15 06:19 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-01-15 03:00 -0500
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-16 13:44 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-15 21:14 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-15 23:47 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-16 08:35 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-16 13:48 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-16 14:57 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-16 22:31 +0100
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-01-17 10:52 +1000
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-17 03:49 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-17 03:26 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-17 09:57 +0100
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> - 2026-01-17 14:12 +1000
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-17 14:25 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-17 13:11 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-17 18:20 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-01-19 11:45 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-19 14:27 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to st op using - and what to use instead” vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> - 2026-01-20 05:04 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to st op using - and what to use instead” Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-01-21 00:35 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-01-21 00:32 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-21 04:16 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-01-21 08:58 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-21 09:58 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” marrgol <marrgol@address.invalid> - 2026-01-21 11:56 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-21 12:14 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-21 12:06 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-21 11:28 +0000
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-01-22 07:14 +1000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-21 22:04 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-01-21 13:27 -0800
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-21 22:50 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-22 10:43 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-22 13:17 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-22 21:43 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-22 22:40 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-23 12:33 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-23 14:10 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-21 23:01 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-21 22:50 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi> - 2026-01-22 09:56 +0200
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-22 10:51 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-22 09:56 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-01-22 09:35 -0800
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-23 12:35 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-23 11:39 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-01-23 08:02 -0800
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-23 18:43 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-22 13:25 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2026-01-22 17:47 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-22 10:06 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2026-01-22 11:02 +0100
Re: Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2026-01-23 03:33 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-23 14:14 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-23 16:50 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-23 20:55 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-23 22:39 +0100
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2026-01-23 21:18 +0000
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-23 22:45 +0100
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-23 23:33 +0000
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" John-Paul Stewart <jpstewart@personalprojects.net> - 2026-01-23 18:51 -0500
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-24 08:49 +0000
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-24 14:33 +0100
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-24 11:11 +0000
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-24 14:15 +0000
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-25 09:44 +0000
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-25 10:25 +0000
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-25 07:02 -0500
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-25 12:39 +0000
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2026-01-28 23:44 +0000
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-29 08:49 +0000
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-25 15:12 +0100
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-26 10:46 +0000
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-26 13:13 +0100
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-27 09:02 +0100
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-27 10:10 +0100
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-27 12:44 +0100
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> - 2026-01-27 10:21 +0000
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-27 12:44 +0100
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-26 11:56 +0000
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-24 14:30 +0100
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2026-01-23 21:39 -0800
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-01-24 14:36 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-21 04:17 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-01-21 09:03 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-21 12:19 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-19 13:42 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-01-21 00:42 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-19 20:38 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2026-01-20 10:52 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi> - 2026-01-20 13:30 +0200
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-20 20:20 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-01-21 00:55 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-16 16:23 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2026-01-15 10:41 +0100
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-15 11:43 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Jason H <jason_hindle@yahoo.com> - 2026-01-18 21:48 +0000
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-01-20 07:11 +1000
Re: "7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead" jayjwa <jayjwa@atr2.ath.cx.invalid> - 2026-01-19 23:35 -0500
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-01-19 20:32 +0800
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-19 20:54 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-01-23 18:38 +0800
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-23 20:56 +0000
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-01-24 20:05 +0800
Re: “7 deprecated Linux commands you need to stop using - and what to use instead” Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-24 21:36 +0000
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-18 23:12 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <7f204mxug6.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #81275 |
On 2026-01-18 22:15, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: > Le 18-01-2026, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> a écrit : >> >> On Sun, 18 Jan 2026 11:13:44 +0100, Marc Haber wrote: >> >>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: >>>> >>>> You forget that it is THEIR router, not mine. I can not just get a >>>> router. >>> >>> Ouch. Please forgive my European-Centric View, where residential >>> customers HAVE to get the option to choose their own router. >> >> Carlos is in Spain. 😑 >> >> Here in NZ, we have a decently competitive Internet provider market, >> too, like you have in Germany. > > In France we have a decently correct ISP market too. But it means we can > chose our ISP. Mostly the biggest ISP come with their router and we have > to use it. The possibility to choose one's ISP doesn't imply we can > choose our router. Absolutely, same situation in Spain. Anyway, the context was a beta testing of IPv6, and I proved that at lest one of the provided routers was not IPv6 ready. It did not activate a firewall for IPv6. I reported this, and they did some thing that closed all incoming IPv6 connections to my machines. Input ssh directly to a machine in my LAN from outside became impossible in IPv6, and no means to open it up. And that is a crucial feature of IPv6: no needing to use NAT and tricks in the router to connect from outside to a machine inside. -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-18 19:52 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <10kk9pp$pvp$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #81281 |
On 1/18/26 14:12, Carlos E.R. wrote: > On 2026-01-18 22:15, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: >> Le 18-01-2026, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> a écrit : >>> >>> On Sun, 18 Jan 2026 11:13:44 +0100, Marc Haber wrote: >>> >>>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> You forget that it is THEIR router, not mine. I can not just get a >>>>> router. >>>> >>>> Ouch. Please forgive my European-Centric View, where residential >>>> customers HAVE to get the option to choose their own router. >>> >>> Carlos is in Spain. 😑 >>> >>> Here in NZ, we have a decently competitive Internet provider market, >>> too, like you have in Germany. >> >> In France we have a decently correct ISP market too. But it means we can >> chose our ISP. Mostly the biggest ISP come with their router and we have >> to use it. The possibility to choose one's ISP doesn't imply we can >> choose our router. > > Absolutely, same situation in Spain. Well AT&T leased lines to my provider DSLExtreme and for a while I could use my own router but then AT&T decided to force their routers on us. They do not seem to be tripping over the connecting line or power cord since they did that. In those years of using my own router instead of a 56L modem that happened a lot that something at the AT&T shop which required a call to my provider who called or messaged someone at AT&T to have the situation corrected i.e. plugged back into the provider or power. That hasn't happened since the AT&T router was installed. > > > Anyway, the context was a beta testing of IPv6, and I proved that at > lest one of the provided routers was not IPv6 ready. It did not activate > a firewall for IPv6. > > I reported this, and they did some thing that closed all incoming IPv6 > connections to my machines. Input ssh directly to a machine in my LAN > from outside became impossible in IPv6, and no means to open it up. And > that is a crucial feature of IPv6: no needing to use NAT and tricks in > the router to connect from outside to a machine inside. > bliss- Dell Precision 7730- PCLOS 2026- Linux 6.12.65 pclos1- KDE Plasma 6.5.5
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-19 00:43 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10kjuo7$3tacf$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #81275 |
On 18 Jan 2026 21:15:12 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: > Le 18-01-2026, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> a écrit : >> >> On Sun, 18 Jan 2026 11:13:44 +0100, Marc Haber wrote: >> >>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote: >>>> >>>> You forget that it is THEIR router, not mine. I can not just get >>>> a router. >>> >>> Ouch. Please forgive my European-Centric View, where residential >>> customers HAVE to get the option to choose their own router. >> >> Carlos is in Spain. 😑 >> >> Here in NZ, we have a decently competitive Internet provider >> market, too, like you have in Germany. > > In France we have a decently correct ISP market too. But it means we > can chose our ISP. Mostly the biggest ISP come with their router and > we have to use it. The possibility to choose one's ISP doesn't imply > we can choose our router. In NZ, and I presume in Germany, too, the company that manages the physical fibre connection is not an ISP, and is not allowed to become an ISP. It just provides the connection between your house and the ISP’s nearest “POP” (“Point Of Presence”, i.e. router port). That connection uses a standardized protocol, so it will work with regular off-the-shelf consumer routers that I can buy at any of a range of retail stores.
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| From | Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-19 09:54 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <10kkrfn$2drpi$1@news1.tnib.de> |
| In reply to | #81282 |
Lawrence D´Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: >In NZ, and I presume in Germany, too, the company that manages the >physical fibre connection is not an ISP, and is not allowed to become >an ISP. No, in Gemany the fiber optic company can be the ISP as well, and in some situations they are not even required to allow competitors on their network. That requirement only appears if the line owner's market share is so high that it is considered dominant. That's really bad, since especially the smaller fiber companies don't have much clue about to run a network, to install connections at scale and to keep a decent service both regarding moving packets and fixing problems. The one thing that the fiber companies can to well is lying at the customer, for example sending sales people from door to door with the news that the residents MUST buy fiber because their DSL will be turned off and decommissioned "later this year" and that they will be without Internet if they don't sign up with the fiber company. We already had that issue with DSL 20 years ago and didn't learn anything from that. The DSL companies have learned their ropes, so there is hope that the fiber companies will, eventually. Greetings Marc -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Rhein-Neckar, DE | Beginning of Wisdom " | Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 6224 1600402
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-19 11:15 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10kl3o7$8rkl$4@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #81290 |
On 19/01/2026 08:54, Marc Haber wrote: > Lawrence D´Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: >> In NZ, and I presume in Germany, too, the company that manages the >> physical fibre connection is not an ISP, and is not allowed to become >> an ISP. > > No, in Gemany the fiber optic company can be the ISP as well, and in > some situations they are not even required to allow competitors on > their network. That requirement only appears if the line owner's > market share is so high that it is considered dominant. > > That's really bad, since especially the smaller fiber companies don't > have much clue about to run a network, to install connections at scale > and to keep a decent service both regarding moving packets and fixing > problems. The one thing that the fiber companies can to well is lying > at the customer, for example sending sales people from door to door > with the news that the residents MUST buy fiber because their DSL will > be turned off and decommissioned "later this year" and that they will > be without Internet if they don't sign up with the fiber company. > > We already had that issue with DSL 20 years ago and didn't learn > anything from that. The DSL companies have learned their ropes, so > there is hope that the fiber companies will, eventually. > > Greetings > Marc Things are far better in the UK. The main supplier of fibre is a spin off of the original telecoms nationalised industry - Post office=>British Telecommunications => BT Openreach. The regulatory authority tips it a lot of government money but it must - ensure that virtually everybody gets > 20Mbps service - make the fibre network available to any ISP *at the same price* it charges its parent company, BT. - Not favour its parent in any way in terns of support. In practice it is the most profitable division of BT. Openreach's purlieu ends with an Ethernet socket - the router as such is connected to that, and nay or may not be supplied by the ISP. I am with a smaller independent ISP known for excellent technical support - in practice all I did was set up a PPPoE link on the 'internet' facing Ethernet port and that was that. Other fibre suppliers are less regulated, I think. But the key separation of 'last mile' transport of packets, from the Internet services provider has proved very beneficial. Consumer droids buy the cheap shit with virtually no support, from large companies, technical people buy slightly higher priced products from companies offering better technical support. -- “Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of a car with the cramped public exposure of an airplane.” Dennis Miller
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-19 14:21 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <3on14mx916.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #81290 |
On 2026-01-19 09:54, Marc Haber wrote: > Lawrence D´Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: >> In NZ, and I presume in Germany, too, the company that manages the >> physical fibre connection is not an ISP, and is not allowed to become >> an ISP. > > No, in Gemany the fiber optic company can be the ISP as well, and in > some situations they are not even required to allow competitors on > their network. That requirement only appears if the line owner's > market share is so high that it is considered dominant. In my case, the fibre provider is the ISP. I understand smaller providers can rent fibre. The router is not only an internet router: it also converts VoIP to a standard copper pair connection where I connect my house landline. And it provides whatever is needed for TV service. Another little box does the decoding and has the HDMI output. All that undocumented, so that while it is possible to use your own router, it is not easy. > > That's really bad, since especially the smaller fiber companies don't > have much clue about to run a network, to install connections at scale > and to keep a decent service both regarding moving packets and fixing > problems. The one thing that the fiber companies can to well is lying > at the customer, for example sending sales people from door to door > with the news that the residents MUST buy fiber because their DSL will > be turned off and decommissioned "later this year" and that they will > be without Internet if they don't sign up with the fiber company. > > We already had that issue with DSL 20 years ago and didn't learn > anything from that. The DSL companies have learned their ropes, so > there is hope that the fiber companies will, eventually. Here they did the same, and they did not lie: copper pair is gone. The copper exchanges are disabled and being disassembled. They have been aggressively telling people to migrate. Many refused, and now indeed have no service. They had to install fibre on the end, or if truly not possible, radio. They are using GPON or a variant for higher speed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPON). -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-19 20:51 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10km5gh$lmvq$7@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #81299 |
On Mon, 19 Jan 2026 14:21:39 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote: > The router is not only an internet router: it also converts VoIP to > a standard copper pair connection where I connect my house landline. In our case, the “ONT” box that terminates the fibre has separate connections for phone landline versus Internet. The former goes straight into a handset or handsets, while the latter is a standard Ethernet connector that goes straight into my store-bought router. The router says the Internet connection type is “Dynamic IP”, which I gather just means regular DHCP. So I could set up a Linux box, with a suitable accoutrement of Ethernet interfaces, in its stead, to operate my own homebrew Internet router.
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-19 22:48 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <sdl24mx42m.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #81313 |
On 2026-01-19 21:51, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: > On Mon, 19 Jan 2026 14:21:39 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote: > >> The router is not only an internet router: it also converts VoIP to >> a standard copper pair connection where I connect my house landline. > > In our case, the “ONT” box that terminates the fibre has separate > connections for phone landline versus Internet. The former goes > straight into a handset or handsets, while the latter is a standard > Ethernet connector that goes straight into my store-bought router. Yes, but here the ONT has been integrated inside the router. > > The router says the Internet connection type is “Dynamic IP”, which I > gather just means regular DHCP. So I could set up a Linux box, with a > suitable accoutrement of Ethernet interfaces, in its stead, to operate > my own homebrew Internet router. -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-19 08:33 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <20260119083345.00001e57@gmail.com> |
| In reply to | #81290 |
On Mon, 19 Jan 2026 09:54:15 +0100 Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> wrote: > The one thing that the fiber companies can to well is lying at the > customer, for example sending sales people from door to door with the > news that the residents MUST buy fiber because their DSL will be > turned off and decommissioned "later this year" and that they will be > without Internet if they don't sign up with the fiber company. It's astonishing how blatant salesgoons are about this kind of thing. When $EMPLOYER got acquired by another company a few years back, we had a competitor running around telling customers our product was "going away" and even pretending to be the official replacement. Naturally, they said this over the phone rather than in an e-mail, so we never got anything legally actionable on them...
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-19 20:52 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10km5ik$lmvq$8@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #81307 |
On Mon, 19 Jan 2026 08:33:45 -0800, John Ames wrote: > It's astonishing how blatant salesgoons are about this kind of > thing. When $EMPLOYER got acquired by another company a few years > back, we had a competitor running around telling customers our > product was "going away" and even pretending to be the official > replacement. Naturally, they said this over the phone rather than in > an e-mail, so we never got anything legally actionable on them... How soon after that *did* the product go away ... ? You really think “buy out and shut down competitor” is not a common business tactic?
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| From | John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-19 13:00 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <20260119130050.000065e4@gmail.com> |
| In reply to | #81314 |
On Mon, 19 Jan 2026 20:52:36 -0000 (UTC) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: > > It's astonishing how blatant salesgoons are about this kind of > > thing. When $EMPLOYER got acquired by another company a few years > > back, we had a competitor running around telling customers our > > product was "going away" and even pretending to be the official > > replacement. Naturally, they said this over the phone rather than in > > an e-mail, so we never got anything legally actionable on them... > > How soon after that *did* the product go away ... ? Still here as of this writing, ~4.5 years later. > You really think "buy out and shut down competitor" is not a common > business tactic? Sure is! But given that it was *our competitors* making materially false claims about *our product* being due for cancellation, when in truth they represented neither us nor our parent company, I can't see how that's relevant.
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-19 20:45 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10km557$lmvq$6@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #81290 |
On Mon, 19 Jan 2026 09:54:15 +0100, Marc Haber wrote: > The one thing that the fiber companies can to well is lying at the > customer, for example sending sales people from door to door with > the news that the residents MUST buy fiber because their DSL will be > turned off and decommissioned "later this year" and that they will > be without Internet if they don't sign up with the fiber company. In our case that’s no lie. The copper network is being decommissioned, region by region, and DSL along with it. There is this stereotype of the Germans being well-organized; I can’t help feeling that NZ has outdone them in this one instance, of managing the transition to fibre. 😏
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| From | Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-20 10:46 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <10knitt$2orm7$1@news1.tnib.de> |
| In reply to | #81312 |
Lawrence D´Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: >On Mon, 19 Jan 2026 09:54:15 +0100, Marc Haber wrote: >> The one thing that the fiber companies can to well is lying at the >> customer, for example sending sales people from door to door with >> the news that the residents MUST buy fiber because their DSL will be >> turned off and decommissioned "later this year" and that they will >> be without Internet if they don't sign up with the fiber company. > >In our case that’s no lie. The copper network is being decommissioned, >region by region, and DSL along with it. Over here it's still a few years until then. I had TWO of those sales people stopping by my place in the last six weeks, all claiming that I need to sign up with their fiber RIGHT NOW to avoid my Internet from being canceled under my feet. My street doesn't even have the fiber-to-the-home laid yet (we have the multicore conduit, but neither the building branch lines nor the actual fiber in there yet), what they claim to be fiber is exactly the same service they're selling right now, fiber-to-the-curb-with-last-mile-DSL für one of them, and fiber-to-the-neighborhood-with-last-mile-coax for the other. The fiber-to-the-neighborhood-with-last-mile-coax company is even unlikely to get access to the fiber-to-the-home infrastructure once it's been built. >There is this stereotype of the Germans being well-organized; I can’t >help feeling that NZ has outdone them in this one instance, of >managing the transition to fibre. ? I have to admit that we used to be well-organized, but especially regarding public matters we lost it in the last decade. In the early 1980es, political corruption made us settle to running coax-based copper cable TV to the buildings instead of doing fiber, and we're still suffering from that mistake. The majority of residential Internet here is DSL, with VDSL vectoring having re-monopolized the market ten years ago, with some neighborhoods having copper coax cable providing an alternative for broadband. We're building fiber like crazy and spending insane amounts of money, but it'll be a couple of years until we'll have parity between the copper technologies and fiber. And, frankly speaking, I don't see the necessity of replacing existing copper broadband with fiber. For example, I work online, I would be lost without Internet at home, but I don't even have the maximum bandwith plan that my technology (VDSL vectoring) offers. I would change to another plan if it offered more upstream bandwidth, but the fiber operators artificially emulate the absurdly asymmetric plans from the legacy technologies, so fiber doesn't really have an advantage for me (aside from less power demand and a few milliseconds of less latency). That being said, I'm going to have the fiber laid in the very second I can have it laid, but that's mainly to keep the value of the real estate (and I plan to use the digging activities to put a fat power cable out there since the next car I buy will surely be electric). Greetings Marc -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Rhein-Neckar, DE | Beginning of Wisdom " | Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 6224 1600402
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-20 12:03 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10knque$16dj0$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #81334 |
On 20/01/2026 09:46, Marc Haber wrote: > but the > fiber operators artificially emulate the absurdly asymmetric plans > from the legacy technologies, The asymmetry results from traffic analysis done in the early days of 'consumer Internet'. Consumers - er - *consume* content. They rarely produce any. Ergo the technologies were designed to give the best possible 'customer experience' with limited bandwidth. It's not a bug, it really is a feature... -- "An intellectual is a person knowledgeable in one field who speaks out only in others...” Tom Wolfe
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| From | Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-20 14:34 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <10ko096$2qus2$1@news1.tnib.de> |
| In reply to | #81341 |
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >On 20/01/2026 09:46, Marc Haber wrote: >> but the >> fiber operators artificially emulate the absurdly asymmetric plans >> from the legacy technologies, >The asymmetry results from traffic analysis done in the early days of >'consumer Internet'. Both DOCSIS and VDSL vectoring can't do symmetric. They rely on the high data rate going from the central point to the branches. Greetings Marc -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Rhein-Neckar, DE | Beginning of Wisdom " | Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 6224 1600402
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-20 13:40 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10ko0l5$1848i$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #81348 |
On 20/01/2026 13:34, Marc Haber wrote: > The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >> On 20/01/2026 09:46, Marc Haber wrote: >>> but the >>> fiber operators artificially emulate the absurdly asymmetric plans >>> from the legacy technologies, >> The asymmetry results from traffic analysis done in the early days of >> 'consumer Internet'. > > Both DOCSIS and VDSL vectoring can't do symmetric. They rely on the > high data rate going from the central point to the branches. > It's not a question of 'cant': They were *deliberately designed not to*. And they don't 'rely' on anything other than a piece of [coaxial?] wire. The issue is that the total bandwidth (up + down) is limited. So you select a protocol that fits most customers usage the best. ADSL, VDSL and DOCSIS reflect that *choice*. Back in the day we used other serial protocols that were symmetric. Like ISDN > Greetings > Marc -- I was brought up to believe that you should never give offence if you can avoid it; the new culture tells us you should always take offence if you can. There are now experts in the art of taking offence, indeed whole academic subjects, such as 'gender studies', devoted to it. Sir Roger Scruton
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| From | Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-20 16:14 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <10ko63u$2rkbv$1@news1.tnib.de> |
| In reply to | #81350 |
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >On 20/01/2026 13:34, Marc Haber wrote: >> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>> On 20/01/2026 09:46, Marc Haber wrote: >>>> but the >>>> fiber operators artificially emulate the absurdly asymmetric plans >>>> from the legacy technologies, >>> The asymmetry results from traffic analysis done in the early days of >>> 'consumer Internet'. >> >> Both DOCSIS and VDSL vectoring can't do symmetric. They rely on the >> high data rate going from the central point to the branches. >> >It's not a question of 'cant': They were *deliberately designed not to*. > >And they don't 'rely' on anything other than a piece of [coaxial?] wire. > >The issue is that the total bandwidth (up + down) is limited. So you >select a protocol that fits most customers usage the best. I am really impressed by your technical knowledge. Can you explain how VDSL Vectoring with high bandwidth from the branches to the central point would know about the traffic on the other pairs to be able to appropriately distort the signal on the one pair so that it arrives in a readable change? >ADSL, VDSL and DOCSIS reflect that *choice*. > >Back in the day we used other serial protocols that were symmetric. Like >ISDN When we still believed that a twisted pair of subscriber line would be limited to like 3,5 kHz of bandwidth. Greetings Marc -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Rhein-Neckar, DE | Beginning of Wisdom " | Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 6224 1600402
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-20 20:51 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10kopta$1hv2g$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #81355 |
On 20/01/2026 15:14, Marc Haber wrote: > The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >> On 20/01/2026 13:34, Marc Haber wrote: >>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>> On 20/01/2026 09:46, Marc Haber wrote: >>>>> but the >>>>> fiber operators artificially emulate the absurdly asymmetric plans >>>>> from the legacy technologies, >>>> The asymmetry results from traffic analysis done in the early days of >>>> 'consumer Internet'. >>> >>> Both DOCSIS and VDSL vectoring can't do symmetric. They rely on the >>> high data rate going from the central point to the branches. >>> >> It's not a question of 'cant': They were *deliberately designed not to*. >> >> And they don't 'rely' on anything other than a piece of [coaxial?] wire. >> >> The issue is that the total bandwidth (up + down) is limited. So you >> select a protocol that fits most customers usage the best. > > I am really impressed by your technical knowledge. > > Can you explain how VDSL Vectoring with high bandwidth from the > branches to the central point would know about the traffic on the > other pairs to be able to appropriately distort the signal on the one > pair so that it arrives in a readable change? > Look it up. its not exactly rocket science. And has nothing to do really with the asymmetric implementation of broadband signals ... >> ADSL, VDSL and DOCSIS reflect that *choice*. >> >> Back in the day we used other serial protocols that were symmetric. Like >> ISDN > > When we still believed that a twisted pair of subscriber line would be > limited to like 3,5 kHz of bandwidth. You really have got your knickers in a twist. I only said ISDN because I suspected that uis all you would know about. There was T1, or E1, for a start. And T2 and T3. All copper based serial... > > Greetings > Marc -- "The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll look exactly the same afterwards." Billy Connolly
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| From | Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-21 11:19 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <10kq97r$31q7k$1@news1.tnib.de> |
| In reply to | #81373 |
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >On 20/01/2026 15:14, Marc Haber wrote: >> Can you explain how VDSL Vectoring with high bandwidth from the >> branches to the central point would know about the traffic on the >> other pairs to be able to appropriately distort the signal on the one >> pair so that it arrives in a readable change? >> >Look it up. its not exactly rocket science. I am also very impressed by your willingness to support your claims with facts. >> When we still believed that a twisted pair of subscriber line would be >> limited to like 3,5 kHz of bandwidth. > >You really have got your knickers in a twist. Why stay on a technical level when you can take it pesonal? >I only said ISDN because I suspected that uis all you would know about. > >There was T1, or E1, for a start. And T2 and T3. E1 was four lines, limited to a distance quite shorter than phone. I am finished with the discussion with you. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Rhein-Neckar, DE | Beginning of Wisdom " | Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 6224 1600402
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-20 13:50 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <4aa44mxhas.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #81334 |
On 2026-01-20 10:46, Marc Haber wrote: > Lawrence D´Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: >> On Mon, 19 Jan 2026 09:54:15 +0100, Marc Haber wrote: >>> The one thing that the fiber companies can to well is lying at the >>> customer, for example sending sales people from door to door with >>> the news that the residents MUST buy fiber because their DSL will be >>> turned off and decommissioned "later this year" and that they will >>> be without Internet if they don't sign up with the fiber company. >> >> In our case that’s no lie. The copper network is being decommissioned, >> region by region, and DSL along with it. > > Over here it's still a few years until then. I had TWO of those sales > people stopping by my place in the last six weeks, all claiming that I > need to sign up with their fiber RIGHT NOW to avoid my Internet from > being canceled under my feet. Are they from your ISP? Here, they did not come. They phoned and simply offered an improvement. I had TV via encoded pay satellite. They made an offer that was actually cheaper including TV, land line, internet, and mobile phone. Years before my neighbours were forced to change. I could see that the multiplexer box had only three clients in my block. > My street doesn't even have the fiber-to-the-home laid yet (we have > the multicore conduit, but neither the building branch lines nor the > actual fiber in there yet), what they claim to be fiber is exactly the > same service they're selling right now, > fiber-to-the-curb-with-last-mile-DSL für one of them, and > fiber-to-the-neighborhood-with-last-mile-coax for the other. > > The fiber-to-the-neighborhood-with-last-mile-coax company is even > unlikely to get access to the fiber-to-the-home infrastructure once > it's been built. > >> There is this stereotype of the Germans being well-organized; I can’t >> help feeling that NZ has outdone them in this one instance, of >> managing the transition to fibre. ? > > I have to admit that we used to be well-organized, but especially > regarding public matters we lost it in the last decade. In the early > 1980es, political corruption made us settle to running coax-based > copper cable TV to the buildings instead of doing fiber, and we're > still suffering from that mistake. The majority of residential > Internet here is DSL, with VDSL vectoring having re-monopolized the > market ten years ago, with some neighborhoods having copper coax cable > providing an alternative for broadband. > > We're building fiber like crazy and spending insane amounts of money, > but it'll be a couple of years until we'll have parity between the > copper technologies and fiber. > > And, frankly speaking, I don't see the necessity of replacing existing > copper broadband with fiber. For example, I work online, I would be > lost without Internet at home, but I don't even have the maximum > bandwith plan that my technology (VDSL vectoring) offers. I would > change to another plan if it offered more upstream bandwidth, but the > fiber operators artificially emulate the absurdly asymmetric plans > from the legacy technologies, so fiber doesn't really have an > advantage for me (aside from less power demand and a few milliseconds > of less latency). Not here. I have 1G in both directions. Up to, that's the key word, because GPON divides the total bandwidth between the clients. It doesn't matter if there is no advantage, copper exchanges were disabled and then removed, and the premises sold or rented. > > That being said, I'm going to have the fiber laid in the very second I > can have it laid, but that's mainly to keep the value of the real > estate (and I plan to use the digging activities to put a fat power > cable out there since the next car I buy will surely be electric). :-) In my case, the fibre and the power are on the walls. -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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